Quran and rationalism
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Peace,
637 And they said "If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!" Say "God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know."
What does this mean? Does it mean that if God made the oceans disappear, people would say this is nothing David Copperfield couldn't do? Or does it mean that the signs are everywhere, and those who pay attention take notice, while those who reject see nothing but a mechanical reality?
The signs/miracles are everywhere.
This universe was created from nothing.
There is nowehere you can look without seeing a miracle.Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
When i look around me, and i see people live. I wonder, do they even realize they are alive? Don't they realize that it is a miracle that they are here? Why do they waist their time on nonsense? They just live, they are just...there, they are not alive or dead, they are in their own created Gehenna.
Most people on earth believe in a higher force, but still most waist their time on nonsense. Here in Holland, people have lost touch with reality. They don't care what people do as long it doesn't affect their lives. They live day by day, stand up every morning, and don't even see that the wonder they are here. They just get up, go to work. get home. Go on holidays, have a bit of fun. This is life for them. They don't want to see more. They are not going backwards but also not forward. Not dead or alive.
1417 How difficult it is to swallow the bitterness of self-imposed failure! A life unlived, a mere survival, neither living nor dead (2074, 8713). What a heavy retribution!
When i think about the miracle i'm here, that there was no need for God to create me, then i see how great the gift is of my life. So that is why i want to make every step i take in life as much a miracle, as the miracle that i'm here. These people demand the miracles, and even then would deny them. That is why i don't believe the Quran talks about non-natural miracles, they are mostly misunderstood verses. As the miracle they are denying is right here in front of them, it is in them, they themselves are the miracle! This is the miracle they deny, they ignore this, and take it all for granted. Life is the miracle, the precise design of the creation. These are the miracles they deny.
When i see it all, i proclaim
3827 And We did not create the heaven and the Earth, and everything between them, in vain. Such is the thinking of those who rejected. Therefore, woe to those who have rejected from the Fire.
23115 "Did you think that we created you in vain; that you were not to be returned to us?"
2118 Only those who fail to explore the realm of knowledge say, ?Why does Allah not speak unto us directly, nor is a miracle shown to us?? Even thus, as they now speak, spoke those who lived before their times. Their ways of thinking, their hearts and minds are all alike (untouched by the passage of time.) Indeed, We have made all the Signs clear for people who wish to attain conviction by exploring the intrinsic Truth in these Revelations and in the Universe. (2108, 2256, 1829, 4251, 763) 2119 Lo! We have sent you, O Prophet, with the Decisive Truth, a herald of glad tiding and a Warner. And you will not be held accountable for those who choose to stay behind the Insurmountable Barrier, and hence, dwell there.
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As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.Arnoldyasin, i agree with you more then 100%! In Slovenia, i see the same thing. People want miracles, yet when they come, they refuse to accept it, they want another and another and i think, well, maybe the people are dumb, but that's impossible because they kbnow how to build a bomb or fornicate and then there's only one solution to their attitude ignorance.
These people here are bored and also stuck in their life which they do not appreciate it. I saw both movies Saw and Saw II and believe me, those movies, even though a bit violent, are in many ways educational.
I'm also wasting time but not by choice, i don't want to waste my life or time, i wanna make something, i wanna do something good, i wanna be part of the solution, i wanna go to Hollywood and make movies which will get the message around, and if i make money with it, the money will go to those who need it, i don't need 300.000.000 USd on my bank account but if i had that much money, i'd be doing something with it to earn Paradise.
Allah has given me so much and he answers my prayers and i'm afraid that by being her ein Slovenia, i will not be a good muslim, that is, if i remain here because here i cannot do as many good deeds as i can in Los Angeles as a producer, director, writer, actor.
As salamu alaykum.
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Salamun 'alaikum brother JM,
When the unbelievers were requesting to Muhammad to produce this kind of miracles, God refused.
Why would he have let Moses use miracles, while refusing it to Muhammad ?See , , , , , , , , , , , ,
I believe the answer of your question can be found in these verses.
2106 When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
2107 Do you not recognize the fact that GOD possesses the kingship of the heavens and the earth; that you have none besides GOD as your Lord and Master?
2108 Do you wish to demand of your messenger what was demanded of Moses in the past? Anyone who chooses disbelief, instead of belief, has truly strayed off the right path.Peace Andy,
I do not think the word ?miracle? is a good translation of ayat in . I don?t grasp what could be the abrogation or the forgetting of a miracle. I think ?message? fits far better in this verse, and that God is explaining that the writings revealed to the earlier prophets are abrogated by the Quran.
I also think that is not directly related to .
IMHO, this verse gets better explained with the following oneThe people of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a scripture from the heavens. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said ?Let us see God plainly!?, so the lightning bolt took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the clarity had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.
As you can see, the people of Moses were wrong to expect from God such miracles as to see God plainly.
That?s why I think that, although God could do such miracles, he does not, because a sound faith in God cannot be based on supernatural events.
You can note that the unbelievers are the only ones who demand miracles (in the sense of supernatural events) from God.Peace
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Peace
And yet The God did provide miracles, such as killing them and resurrecting them, or when they asked for (a sheep correction) an offering they would sacrifice and expect Him to send a fire from the sky to burn it, He said I provided you with that very miracle in the past, but you still came back to wrongdoings by killing messengers.
Nabster -
Peace,
Where does it say that, it says they had to kill their ego's. And they asked for a cow, which they had to find themselves, and they didn't aks Him for a fire to burn it. Sorry, but can you provide me the verses that say what you claim?
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Brother peace
I know the Quran almost by heart, I have been reading it almost everyday for the past twenty years. It is there, do a word search...
This story has nothing to do with the story of the golden calf -
Peace,
I also know the Quran almost by heart, but i rechecked
254 When Moses returned, he said to his people, ?O my people! You have hurt your own ?Selves? by worshiping the calf (7148-156). So, turn in repentance to your Maker and kill your ego (rebellious mentality 1253). This will be best for you in the Sight of your Maker.? Thereupon He turned toward you accepting your repentance. Verily, He is the Acceptor of repentance, the Merciful.
256 Then We revived you(the Jewish people), and raised you from a dead (to a living nation) so that you might show gratitude.
And there is also no sheep-miracle story in the Quran, so i think you maybe confused it with a hadith-story. I don't recall the story you talk about. These are the only occurences of sheep int he Quran
6146 And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
Chapter 20
2018 He said "It is my staff, I lean on it, and I guide my sheep with it, and I have other uses in it."Chapter 21
2178 And David and Solomon, when they gave judgment in the case of the crop that was damaged by the sheep of the people, and We were witness to their judgment. -
Bro arnoldyasin
Peace
You might be right, it might have been a foot-note referring to a verse in tafseer. It will take me some time to check for the wording of the verse in question. Or maybe I am confusing it with the strory of Abel and Cain...
God bless
Only the almighty does not err and I ask His forgiveness for my memory weaknesses -
Salaam brother JM,
Salamun 'alaikum brother JM,
I believe the answer of your question can be found in these verses.
2106 When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
2107 Do you not recognize the fact that GOD possesses the kingship of the heavens and the earth; that you have none besides GOD as your Lord and Master?
2108 Do you wish to demand of your messenger what was demanded of Moses in the past? Anyone who chooses disbelief, instead of belief, has truly strayed off the right path.Peace Andy,
I do not think the word ?miracle? is a good translation of ayat in . I don?t grasp what could be the abrogation or the forgetting of a miracle. I think ?message? fits far better in this verse, and that God is explaining that the writings revealed to the earlier prophets are abrogated by the Quran.
I also think that is not directly related to .
Could you tell a bit why you think the translation is not good? Could you also tell your understanding for 2106-108 because for me they are directly related.
IMHO, this verse gets better explained with the following one
The people of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a scripture from the heavens. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said ?Let us see God plainly!?, so the lightning bolt took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the clarity had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.
As you can see, the people of Moses were wrong to expect from God such miracles as to see God plainly.
That?s why I think that, although God could do such miracles, he does not, because a sound faith in God cannot be based on supernatural events.
You can note that the unbelievers are the only ones who demand miracles (in the sense of supernatural events) from God.The attitude of people of Moses is not peculiar to them. Sunni and shia also have the same attitude when it comes to the issue "Quran Alone" (at least in my experience). For example if you bring 6114 to them.
They actually have no reason to reject it. They know that verse 6114 is written in quran which is miracle. So at this point we can say that they have seen the miracle and are asked to accept this miracle as miracle (which means accept 6114). However, as we know, those sunni and shia cannot appreciate this miracle. They reject and for this rejection they resort to so many excuses as if they said "Let us see God plainly". That is how I understand the verse and link them to my every day life.
Btw, do some of you guys not believe quran is miracle and divine?
Wassalam,
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Bro arnoldyasin
Peace
I found the ayat I was referring to, it is 3183. And the translation of free-minds is wrong.
Nabster -
It refers clearly to an offering (not a sheep) that will be devoured by fire.
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Salaam brother JM,
Salamun 'alaikum brother JM,
I believe the answer of your question can be found in these verses.
2106 When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
2107 Do you not recognize the fact that GOD possesses the kingship of the heavens and the earth; that you have none besides GOD as your Lord and Master?
2108 Do you wish to demand of your messenger what was demanded of Moses in the past? Anyone who chooses disbelief, instead of belief, has truly strayed off the right path.Peace Andy,
I do not think the word ?miracle? is a good translation of ayat in . I don?t grasp what could be the abrogation or the forgetting of a miracle. I think ?message? fits far better in this verse, and that God is explaining that the writings revealed to the earlier prophets are abrogated by the Quran.
I also think that is not directly related to .
Could you tell a bit why you think the translation is not good? Could you also tell your understanding for 2106-108 because for me they are directly related.
Peace Andy,
Here is my definition of the word ?miracle? (from Cambridge dictionary) an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god, or any very surprising and unexpected event
What is yours ?
Anyway, my interpretation of is the one of Asad
http//www.theholyquran.org/?x=s_main&y=s_middle&kid=33&sid=2Peace
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It refers clearly to an offering (not a sheep) that will be devoured by fire.
Peace,
Yes, but you take it out of context. Let's see what it really says
3182 That (is) because (of) what your hands advanced/presented and that God is not with an unjust/oppressor to the worshippers .
183 Those who said "That God promised/recommended to us that We not believe to a messenger until he comes/brings to us with an approachment to God (offering that) the fire eats it." Say "Messengers had come to you from before me with the evidences , and with what you said, so why (have) you killed them, if you were truthful?"
184 So if they denied you , so messengers from before you had been denied (rejected), they came with the evidences, and The Books, and The Book , the luminous.3183 As for those who maintain, "Behold, God has bidden us not to believe in any apostle unless he comes unto us with burnt offerings"* - say "Even before me there came unto you apostles with all evidence of the truth, and with that whereof you speak why, then, did you slay them, if what you say is true?
It is about that the prophet didn't do any burn offerings. It doesn't imply that God will send a fire from the skies to burn it. It says that they will not believe until he offers something to God which will be burnt/eaten by a fire, it doesn't imply at all that a fire comes from the sky an approachment to God (offering that) the fire eats it Where does it imply that a fire shoots out of the sky? It only implies burnt offering being done in the way of the previous people, which were the Jews in this case.
"with an offering which the fire consumes" - in other words, unless the prophet conforms to Mosaic Law, which prescribes burnt offerings as an essential part of divine services. Although this aspect of the Law had been left in abeyance ever since the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, the Jews of post-Talmudic times were convinced that the Messiah promised to them would restore the Mosaic rites in their entirety; and so they refused to accept as a prophet anyone who did not conform to the Law of the Torah in every detail.
This is what the verses imply. They didn't want to accept Muhammed because he didn't do any burnt offerings, which was the made up law of the Jews. These were just excuses, because when prophets did do burnt offerings, they still killed the prophets, even though they confirmed to their mosaic law.
Peace
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Brother
I am reading it in arabic, and this is the way I understand it, I do not know where you get your translations/tafseers from, but in plain arabic this is what it says. (sky was added from tafseer from memory in my case).
So we will always have these problems. I believe in miracles and I read them described again and again in quran in arabic which is my native language, you do not - fine. And please do not tell me that my mind is corrupted by hadith because the only hadith book i ever read was ryadh assalyhin which have a very small number of hadiths. Besides I do not reject hadith completely as a source of historical value, just I do not accept them as a source for legislation and rituals.
Peace
Nabster -
Salaam JM,
Peace Andy,
Here is my definition of the word ?miracle? (from Cambridge dictionary) an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god, or any very surprising and unexpected event
Does quran fit your definition?
What is yours ?
Please forgive me bro, I cannot explain it in a single sentence ( ...but I try to explain using examples.
Imagine you live at the time of prophet Jesus. And then Jesus comes to you and claims himself to be the messenger of Allah. How do you know that Jesus doesn't tell a lie? Will you just reject his claim? If at the same time another person for example xxx comes to you (still at the time of prophet Jesus) and claims that he is the messenger of Allah, then how do you know that xxx tells a lie? Will you just accept and follow xxx? This is where the proofs are needed.
309 Did they not roam the Earth and see how it ended for those before them? They were more powerful than them, and they cultivated the land and they built in it far more than these have built, and their messengers came to them with the proofs. God was not to wrong them, but it was they who wronged themselves.
4050 They will Say "Did not your messengers come to you with proofs?" They will reply "Yes." They will Say "Then call out, for the call of the rejecters is nothing but in vain."
And the proofs have to be DISTINGUISHABLE ENOUGH to convince people that they are really from Allah.
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Brother
I am reading it in arabic, and this is the way I understand it, I do not know where you get your translations/tafseers from, but in plain arabic this is what it says. (sky was added from tafseer from memory in my case).
So we will always have these problems. I believe in miracles and I read them described again and again in quran in arabic which is my native language, you do not - fine. And please do not tell me that my mind is corrupted by hadith because the only hadith book i ever read was ryadh assalyhin which have a very small number of hadiths. Besides I do not reject hadith completely as a source of historical value, just I do not accept them as a source for legislation and rituals.
Peace
NabsterAre the words different in arabic then the above translation? I believe not. So this has to do with psychology, not with arabic or not. You grew up with the notion miracles, so your mind fills it in. You don't need to read hadiths to get your subconciousness filled in with common beliefs. You just need to live on earth, your enviroment does the rest. Allah doesn't change His laws in anything.
Peace
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Peace arnoldyasin
I am not a proud man, otherwise I will not qualify as a muslim or would be believer.
I might be wrong in my reading in arabic in this particular instance (even if I read it the way I will understand anything spoken or written in arabic in any dialect currently used on the planet).
Let us ask AhmedBagat what he thinks of this. Ayat 3183, what is the meaning without introducing allegorical interpretation attempt.
Also, I strongly suggest to anyone who wishes to understand the Quran and who is serious and genuine about it to make Arabic their fluent language by learning arabic, then they will be in a better position to get closest to the meaning, instead of relying on second source translation. The arabs have surrendered their brains to scholars, but fresh brains for whom this is not the case could make a marvelous contribution, plus it will help us get out of the mess this planet is currently in with fanaticism running rampant and what have you...
I also know where you are coming from, I am (or was) very westernised myself and my other native language is french, and I am as you can see very fluent in english.
This is nothing new the arguments we are having. You can refer to say why the philosopher Ibn Rushd was declared an apostate...
Good luck in your research.
Kind salams
Nabster
PS We also have to be very careful that by twisting the interpretations of the message, we do like some people do whose desire is only to get the easy way out so that they can do anything they want..., and I am sure you are not one of them... -
Peace,
Yes, i believe the same thing, that is why i'm always carefull to stay in the middle and be neutral with my interpretation as much as possible as i know Quantum physics show unlimited possibilities, so i believe some things which are now called 'miracles' are not miracles at all, but just astounding control and knowledge on the possibilities of matter, and other things are taking out of context to which people believe it are miracles. God says He is everwhere, see 2116, so that is why i don't believe in the fire from the sky story which is purely Biblical. And i'm busy with my Arabic, i study Theology.
Peace bro..
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Imagine you live at the time of prophet Jesus. And then Jesus comes to you and claims himself to be the messenger of Allah. How do you know that Jesus doesn't tell a lie? Will you just reject his claim? If at the same time another person for example xxx comes to you (still at the time of prophet Jesus) and claims that he is the messenger of Allah, then how do you know that xxx tells a lie? Will you just accept and follow xxx? This is where the proofs are needed.
309 Did they not roam the Earth and see how it ended for those before them? They were more powerful than them, and they cultivated the land and they built in it far more than these have built, and their messengers came to them with the proofs. God was not to wrong them, but it was they who wronged themselves.
4050 They will Say "Did not your messengers come to you with proofs?" They will reply "Yes." They will Say "Then call out, for the call of the rejecters is nothing but in vain."
And the proofs have to be DISTINGUISHABLE ENOUGH to convince people that they are really from Allah.
Peace Andy,
Excellent question !
But, before we try to respond to it, let me ask you this what was the proof Muhammad gave so that his people could know he was not a liar when he was claiming to be a messenger of God ?
Here is a clue
The leaders who were arrogant from among his people said to those who were weak and believed from amongst them ?How do you know that Saleh was sent from his Lord?? They said ?We believe in what he has been sent with.?
Peace