Quran and rationalism
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Salaam JM,
Peace Andy,
Here is my definition of the word ?miracle? (from Cambridge dictionary) an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god, or any very surprising and unexpected event
Does quran fit your definition?
What is yours ?
Please forgive me bro, I cannot explain it in a single sentence ( ...but I try to explain using examples.
Imagine you live at the time of prophet Jesus. And then Jesus comes to you and claims himself to be the messenger of Allah. How do you know that Jesus doesn't tell a lie? Will you just reject his claim? If at the same time another person for example xxx comes to you (still at the time of prophet Jesus) and claims that he is the messenger of Allah, then how do you know that xxx tells a lie? Will you just accept and follow xxx? This is where the proofs are needed.
309 Did they not roam the Earth and see how it ended for those before them? They were more powerful than them, and they cultivated the land and they built in it far more than these have built, and their messengers came to them with the proofs. God was not to wrong them, but it was they who wronged themselves.
4050 They will Say "Did not your messengers come to you with proofs?" They will reply "Yes." They will Say "Then call out, for the call of the rejecters is nothing but in vain."
And the proofs have to be DISTINGUISHABLE ENOUGH to convince people that they are really from Allah.
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Brother
I am reading it in arabic, and this is the way I understand it, I do not know where you get your translations/tafseers from, but in plain arabic this is what it says. (sky was added from tafseer from memory in my case).
So we will always have these problems. I believe in miracles and I read them described again and again in quran in arabic which is my native language, you do not - fine. And please do not tell me that my mind is corrupted by hadith because the only hadith book i ever read was ryadh assalyhin which have a very small number of hadiths. Besides I do not reject hadith completely as a source of historical value, just I do not accept them as a source for legislation and rituals.
Peace
NabsterAre the words different in arabic then the above translation? I believe not. So this has to do with psychology, not with arabic or not. You grew up with the notion miracles, so your mind fills it in. You don't need to read hadiths to get your subconciousness filled in with common beliefs. You just need to live on earth, your enviroment does the rest. Allah doesn't change His laws in anything.
Peace
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Peace arnoldyasin
I am not a proud man, otherwise I will not qualify as a muslim or would be believer.
I might be wrong in my reading in arabic in this particular instance (even if I read it the way I will understand anything spoken or written in arabic in any dialect currently used on the planet).
Let us ask AhmedBagat what he thinks of this. Ayat 3183, what is the meaning without introducing allegorical interpretation attempt.
Also, I strongly suggest to anyone who wishes to understand the Quran and who is serious and genuine about it to make Arabic their fluent language by learning arabic, then they will be in a better position to get closest to the meaning, instead of relying on second source translation. The arabs have surrendered their brains to scholars, but fresh brains for whom this is not the case could make a marvelous contribution, plus it will help us get out of the mess this planet is currently in with fanaticism running rampant and what have you...
I also know where you are coming from, I am (or was) very westernised myself and my other native language is french, and I am as you can see very fluent in english.
This is nothing new the arguments we are having. You can refer to say why the philosopher Ibn Rushd was declared an apostate...
Good luck in your research.
Kind salams
Nabster
PS We also have to be very careful that by twisting the interpretations of the message, we do like some people do whose desire is only to get the easy way out so that they can do anything they want..., and I am sure you are not one of them... -
Peace,
Yes, i believe the same thing, that is why i'm always carefull to stay in the middle and be neutral with my interpretation as much as possible as i know Quantum physics show unlimited possibilities, so i believe some things which are now called 'miracles' are not miracles at all, but just astounding control and knowledge on the possibilities of matter, and other things are taking out of context to which people believe it are miracles. God says He is everwhere, see 2116, so that is why i don't believe in the fire from the sky story which is purely Biblical. And i'm busy with my Arabic, i study Theology.
Peace bro..
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Imagine you live at the time of prophet Jesus. And then Jesus comes to you and claims himself to be the messenger of Allah. How do you know that Jesus doesn't tell a lie? Will you just reject his claim? If at the same time another person for example xxx comes to you (still at the time of prophet Jesus) and claims that he is the messenger of Allah, then how do you know that xxx tells a lie? Will you just accept and follow xxx? This is where the proofs are needed.
309 Did they not roam the Earth and see how it ended for those before them? They were more powerful than them, and they cultivated the land and they built in it far more than these have built, and their messengers came to them with the proofs. God was not to wrong them, but it was they who wronged themselves.
4050 They will Say "Did not your messengers come to you with proofs?" They will reply "Yes." They will Say "Then call out, for the call of the rejecters is nothing but in vain."
And the proofs have to be DISTINGUISHABLE ENOUGH to convince people that they are really from Allah.
Peace Andy,
Excellent question !
But, before we try to respond to it, let me ask you this what was the proof Muhammad gave so that his people could know he was not a liar when he was claiming to be a messenger of God ?
Here is a clue
The leaders who were arrogant from among his people said to those who were weak and believed from amongst them ?How do you know that Saleh was sent from his Lord?? They said ?We believe in what he has been sent with.?
Peace
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Peace
Thank you for the middle ground arnoldyasin. Allah said that he made the muslims a middle nation so that they be witness unto mankind and that the messenger be witness over them...
May I add that it is also important not to get carried away with models we are using to understand nature, the quantum physics model is a very good model that incorporates and summarises the measurements we can make with the state of the instruments we have now, but as such it is just a model (a paradigm if you may call it). You must know that we are limited by the instruments we are using, and most of the results of quantum physics are measured at the subatomic and atomic level.
What the common man can see is limited to the spectrum of visible light which is very minute compared to the full spectrum of energy. The instruments we are using are an extension for us to measure and use to a certain extent what we cannot perceive directly, but see the effect of in subatomic physical phenomena.
We might be able in the future to devise more precise instruments that will not only open more doors of capability for us, but also of understansing of the fabric of the Universe.
Until then as you rightly said we must be very cautious.
As far as the mutashabihat in the Quran are concerned I believe that Allah was speaking to a specific people in space time, so he used examples from their day to day life to explain the wonders of His creation. It is like explaining to someone who never saw the ocean how a fish looks like and how it behaves. In those days they believed in the elements earth, water, fire, light, wind, etc...
We might call me naive, but I am on the other side of the argument, ie I believe in miracles, then I explain them.
You are more towards the skeptical side, you believe in facts, then only afterwards you might accept they are miracles.
And as always Allah knows best.
Nabster -
Peace,
Yes, i believe the same thing, that is why i'm always carefull to stay in the middle and be neutral with my interpretation as much as possible as i know Quantum physics show unlimited possibilities, so i believe some things which are now called 'miracles' are not miracles at all, but just astounding control and knowledge on the possibilities of matter, and other things are taking out of context to which people believe it are miracles. God says He is everwhere, see 2116, so that is why i don't believe in the fire from the sky story which is purely Biblical. And i'm busy with my Arabic, i study Theology.
Peace bro..
Peace Arnold,
Though people may not admit it, truth is conversional. If you believe you have the truth then you must uphold and spread it; because if you didn't believe it to be true then you wouldn't uphold it in the first place.
The desire to "stay in the middle" involves compromise in many cases. One must be careful about this.
689 They wish that you compromise, so they too can compromise.
Stay well and regards.
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Peace,
I know truth, it has to do with psychology. I don't believe in the mythical miracles. What i meant is that i watch out not to fight something just because i want to be right. No compromising with me.
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Salaam brother JM,
Imagine you live at the time of prophet Jesus. And then Jesus comes to you and claims himself to be the messenger of Allah. How do you know that Jesus doesn't tell a lie? Will you just reject his claim? If at the same time another person for example xxx comes to you (still at the time of prophet Jesus) and claims that he is the messenger of Allah, then how do you know that xxx tells a lie? Will you just accept and follow xxx? This is where the proofs are needed.
309 Did they not roam the Earth and see how it ended for those before them? They were more powerful than them, and they cultivated the land and they built in it far more than these have built, and their messengers came to them with the proofs. God was not to wrong them, but it was they who wronged themselves.
4050 They will Say "Did not your messengers come to you with proofs?" They will reply "Yes." They will Say "Then call out, for the call of the rejecters is nothing but in vain."
And the proofs have to be DISTINGUISHABLE ENOUGH to convince people that they are really from Allah.
Peace Andy,
Excellent question !
But, before we try to respond to it, let me ask you this what was the proof Muhammad gave so that his people could know he was not a liar when he was claiming to be a messenger of God ?
Isn't quran the proof?
Here is a clue
The leaders who were arrogant from among his people said to those who were weak and believed from amongst them ?How do you know that Saleh was sent from his Lord?? They said ?We believe in what he has been sent with.?
From 309, I understand that messengers came with proofs. So this should be the case for Saleh.
773 To Thamoud we sent their brother Saaleh. He said, "O my people, worship GOD; you have no other god beside Him. Proof has been provided for you from your Lord here is GOD's camel, to serve as a sign for you. Let her eat from GOD's land, and do not touch her with any harm, lest you incur a painful retribution.
So I understand in 775, the arrogants were trying to turn back those who have believed by asking such question. And those who have believed affirmed their belief that they were on the Saleh's side.
Brother JM, the thing is pearls can be found anywhere. Just because the messages sound good and righteous, doesn't mean they are from Allah. Just an example from hadith (I assume you are not sunni or shia who claim that shahih hadiths were also revealed by Allah).
Shahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0056
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) said Faith has over seventy branches or over sixty branches, the most excellent of which is the declaration that there is no god but Allah, and the humblest of which is the, removal of what is injurious from the path and modesty is the branch of faith.
Back to my previous example, if xxx is such a good person, he always enjoins good and forbids evil, and then claims that he is the messenger of Allah, will you just accept and obey him?
Btw, you haven't answered my question "Does quran fit your definition?"
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Salaam brother JM,
Imagine you live at the time of prophet Jesus. And then Jesus comes to you and claims himself to be the messenger of Allah. How do you know that Jesus doesn't tell a lie? Will you just reject his claim? If at the same time another person for example xxx comes to you (still at the time of prophet Jesus) and claims that he is the messenger of Allah, then how do you know that xxx tells a lie? Will you just accept and follow xxx? This is where the proofs are needed.
309 Did they not roam the Earth and see how it ended for those before them? They were more powerful than them, and they cultivated the land and they built in it far more than these have built, and their messengers came to them with the proofs. God was not to wrong them, but it was they who wronged themselves.
4050 They will Say "Did not your messengers come to you with proofs?" They will reply "Yes." They will Say "Then call out, for the call of the rejecters is nothing but in vain."
And the proofs have to be DISTINGUISHABLE ENOUGH to convince people that they are really from Allah.
Peace Andy,
Excellent question !
But, before we try to respond to it, let me ask you this what was the proof Muhammad gave so that his people could know he was not a liar when he was claiming to be a messenger of God ?
Isn't quran the proof?
Good question !
But someone skeptic could think he has fabricated it himself.
So, in what regard should the Quran prove that Muhammad was a messenger of God ?Here is a clue
The leaders who were arrogant from among his people said to those who were weak and believed from amongst them ?How do you know that Saleh was sent from his Lord?? They said ?We believe in what he has been sent with.?
From 309, I understand that messengers came with proofs. So this should be the case for Saleh.
What kind of proof was it ?
Was it a message (like the quran for Muhammad), or was it something else (like a supernatural phenomena) ?Back to my previous example, if xxx is such a good person, he always enjoins good and forbids evil, and then claims that he is the messenger of Allah, will you just accept and obey him?
Excellent question!
What would be your answer to it?Btw, you haven't answered my question "Does quran fit your definition?"
I need more reflection to answer.
Peace
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Peace
There is an ayat in the Quran saying to the believers that Allah made them "Ummatun Wasatta" which means a "middle nation" central to mankind. This has nothing to do with compromise. Compromise is when you accept things that are untrue to satisfy your protagonist and gain some rewards.
At the moment most muslims are extreme, that is why they keep on fighting, instead of building up a useful workable system as decreed by the Almighty in the Quran. If you say to people if you do not believe I am going to kill you or I am going to hate you or not have any dealings whatsoever with you, how can you make them listen to you?
God bless
Nabster -
Peace
You can call me a pessimist, but at the moment I do not think there is a single Believer on the planet. On the other hand, there is a multitude of muslims with opinions, I being one of them...
Nabster -
Salaam JM,
Good question !
But someone skeptic could think he has fabricated it himself.Indeed
254 Moreover, those who are bent on denying the truth are wont to say, ?This is nothing but a lie, which he has devised with the help of other people, who thereupon have perverted the truth and brought a falsehood into being.?
So, in what regard should the Quran prove that Muhammad was a messenger of God ?
I am really really sorry bro, respectfully please forgive me but I feel compelled to ask "Do you believe that quran is DIVINE or not?"
What kind of proof was it ?
Was it a message (like the quran for Muhammad), or was it something else (like a supernatural phenomena) ?I believe quran is miracle and not merely righteous stuff, how about you? My logic is simple, pearls can be found anywhere. So if the matter is only about the messages, I have many choices of sources which do not necessarily from Allah.
I am not sure what kind of proof but the proof must have been DISTINGUISHABLE ENOUGH to convince people.
Back to my previous example, if xxx is such a good person, he always enjoins good and forbids evil, and then claims that he is the messenger of Allah, will you just accept and obey him?
Excellent question!
What would be your answer to it?I need proof ...and how about you? Will you just accept xxx's claim that he is messenger of Allah because he has been enjoining goods & forbidding evils and you like his messages? Will you just reject Jesus' claim that he is messenger of Allah just because you probably disagree with some of his messages (which also probably abandon what your fathers have been doing)?
Btw, you haven't answered my question "Does quran fit your definition?"
I need more reflection to answer.
OK, take your time.
Wassalam,
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Salaam JM,
Good question !
But someone skeptic could think he has fabricated it himself.Indeed )
254 Moreover, those who are bent on denying the truth are wont to say, ?This is nothing but a lie, which he has devised with the help of other people, who thereupon have perverted the truth and brought a falsehood into being.?
Yes, and here was the response of the prophet
Say ?It was sent down by the One who knows the secrets in the heavens and the Earth. He is always Forgiving, Merciful.?
Obviously, God did not help him to do a miracle (in the sense of supernatural event). Would you have been convinced he was not a liar ?
So, what is the conclusion ?
So, in what regard should the Quran prove that Muhammad was a messenger of God ?
I am really really sorry bro, respectfully please forgive me but I feel compelled to ask "Do you believe that quran is DIVINE or not?"
Why do you feel compelled to ask me this question?
Are you unable to answer mine ?What kind of proof was it ?
Was it a message (like the quran for Muhammad), or was it something else (like a supernatural phenomena) ?I believe quran is miracle and not merely righteous stuff, how about you? My logic is simple, pearls can be found anywhere. So if the matter is only about the messages, I have many choices of sources which do not necessarily from Allah.
I am not sure what kind of proof but the proof must have been DISTINGUISHABLE ENOUGH to convince people.
I am very curious to know what it could have been?
But? It should be mentioned somewhere in the Quran, isn?t it ?Back to my previous example, if xxx is such a good person, he always enjoins good and forbids evil, and then claims that he is the messenger of Allah, will you just accept and obey him?
Excellent question!
What would be your answer to it?I need proof ) ...and how about you? Will you just accept xxx's claim that he is messenger of Allah because he has been enjoining goods & forbidding evils and you like his messages? Will you just reject Jesus' claim that he is messenger of Allah just because you probably disagree with some of his messages (which also probably abandon what your fathers have been doing)?
Here is a good sign to ponder upon
Nay, here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge and none but the unjust reject Our Signs. Ye they say "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say "The signs are indeed with Allah and I am indeed a clear Warner." And is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.
God has told Muhammad to answer to the unbelievers that the message that was rehearsed to them should have been enough to believe.
God has not helped Muhammad to do a miracle ( a supernatural event)Should I conclude that you would not have believed in the messengership of Muhammad ?
Peace
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Salaam JM,
Yes, and here was the response of the prophet
Say ?It was sent down by the One who knows the secrets in the heavens and the Earth. He is always Forgiving, Merciful.?
Obviously, God did not help him to do a miracle (in the sense of supernatural event). Would you have been convinced he was not a liar ?
223 And if you doubt any part of what We have, bestowed from on high, step by step, upon Our servant , then produce a surah of similar merit, and call upon any other than God to bear witness for you -if what you say is true!
So, what is the conclusion ?
Messengers came with proofs (309). In case of Muhammad, the proof is quran.
Why do you feel compelled to ask me this question?
Are you unable to answer mine ?Because it seems to me that you don't believe quran is miracle -> you don't believe that quran is divine. If you don't believe quran is divine, then how do you believe that Muhammad is messenger of Allah?
It seems also to me that you will accept somebody's claim that he is messenger of Allah by his teachings (as long as the teachings sound righteous for you). Please CMIIW.
Here is a good sign to ponder upon
Nay, here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge and none but the unjust reject Our Signs. Ye they say "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say "The signs are indeed with Allah and I am indeed a clear Warner." And is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.
God has told Muhammad to answer to the unbelievers that the message that was rehearsed to them should have been enough to believe.
God has not helped Muhammad to do a miracle ( a supernatural event)Exactly, quran is self miracle )
Wassalam,
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Andy, I will answer your questions, but first, could you expatiate why, assuming you have met the prophet, you would have believed his quran is a proof (of his messengership), a miracle ?
Is it because of its mathematical structure (code 19) ?Peace
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625 can be understood to mean those who actually take the metaphors in the verses to be literal.
Why?
Because if you argue that the events such as the splitting of the sea etc are real events then you make the metaphor which should be applicable in your own life nothing but an ancient story. The metaphor allows you to benefit from it, whereas insisting that it is an event gives you no benefit.
Note that the God does not shy away from citing metaphors. These are NOT ancient stories when treated as metaphors, but you are unwittingly holding to that very position that makes them nothing but ancient tales.
Regards.
Excuse me bro, i just waked up and can't take more Quran manipulations by some confused muslims
Take care
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Peace arnoldyasin
I am not a proud man, otherwise I will not qualify as a muslim or would be believer.
I might be wrong in my reading in arabic in this particular instance (even if I read it the way I will understand anything spoken or written in arabic in any dialect currently used on the planet).
Let us ask AhmedBagat what he thinks of this. Ayat 3183, what is the meaning without introducing allegorical interpretation attempt.
Also, I strongly suggest to anyone who wishes to understand the Quran and who is serious and genuine about it to make Arabic their fluent language by learning arabic, then they will be in a better position to get closest to the meaning, instead of relying on second source translation. The arabs have surrendered their brains to scholars, but fresh brains for whom this is not the case could make a marvelous contribution, plus it will help us get out of the mess this planet is currently in with fanaticism running rampant and what have you...
I also know where you are coming from, I am (or was) very westernised myself and my other native language is french, and I am as you can see very fluent in english.
This is nothing new the arguments we are having. You can refer to say why the philosopher Ibn Rushd was declared an apostate...
Good luck in your research.
Kind salams
Nabster
PS We also have to be very careful that by twisting the interpretations of the message, we do like some people do whose desire is only to get the easy way out so that they can do anything they want..., and I am sure you are not one of them...Peace bro,
I will get back to you soon mate, i just waked up and yet to wake up, LOL
but hey you are right the Quran told us about a miracle happened to the Jews when Allah caused a few of them to die then He made them alive again
I will elaborate soon
Cheers
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Peace Nabster
3183 is very clear bro and I?m sure you know that, but let?s walk through it again\
(Those are they) who said Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any messenger until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes. Say Indeed, there came to you messengers before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand; why then did you kill them if you are truthful?
(183)
-> Allah is telling us about some of the people, those who say ? Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any messenger until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes.?, they asked for a miracle, sort of the same one Adam sons used when they disputed their marriage to one of their sisters, anyway Allah is informing the prophet to say to them ? Indeed, there came to you messengers before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand?, clearly then prophet was telling them that what they asked for was sent before with other messengers however they never believed as well killed those messengers a bunch of lying criminals they are ? why then did you kill them if you are truthful? ?, see they are nothing but a bunch of liars
Clearly Allah told us that He sent this stype of miracle in the past with some other messengers that got killed by the disbelievers
Regarding the other miracle of killing a few jews then reviving them, sure it happened because Allah told us that it happened, here it is
55- And remember ye said "O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly," but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on.
56- Then We raised you up after your death that you may give thanks.
(55)
(56)What can I say bro?
Allah is telling us that those who said we will not believe until they see Allah was instantly put to death ? ?, ?Akhazatkum Al Saaika?, well, the verse is translated wrong, because the Arabic words means that they died instantly when they said that, this is obvious from the word ?Saaika? which is used many times in the Quran to indicate that Allah put tribes to death ?Thamood?, in addition to that in the following verse it was said boldly that they were revived after been put to death ? Then We raised you up after your death that you may give thanks.?, this thanks mentioned is clearly to thank Allah after He proved His existence to them while not revealing Himself at the same time, why he does that to a bunch of disbelievers while He didn?t do that to a mighty prophet ?Moses? when He asked to see Him, however in both cases Allah proved His existence, a believer will submit on the spot after the proof but the arrogant will still dispute Allah miracles
Salam Bro
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Excuse me bro, i just waked up and can't take more Quran manipulations by some confused muslims
Take care
Me too...
Nabster