Quran and rationalism
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Andy, I will answer your questions, but first, could you expatiate why, assuming you have met the prophet, you would have believed his quran is a proof (of his messengership), a miracle ?
Is it because of its mathematical structure (code 19) ?Peace
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625 can be understood to mean those who actually take the metaphors in the verses to be literal.
Why?
Because if you argue that the events such as the splitting of the sea etc are real events then you make the metaphor which should be applicable in your own life nothing but an ancient story. The metaphor allows you to benefit from it, whereas insisting that it is an event gives you no benefit.
Note that the God does not shy away from citing metaphors. These are NOT ancient stories when treated as metaphors, but you are unwittingly holding to that very position that makes them nothing but ancient tales.
Regards.
Excuse me bro, i just waked up and can't take more Quran manipulations by some confused muslims
Take care
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Peace arnoldyasin
I am not a proud man, otherwise I will not qualify as a muslim or would be believer.
I might be wrong in my reading in arabic in this particular instance (even if I read it the way I will understand anything spoken or written in arabic in any dialect currently used on the planet).
Let us ask AhmedBagat what he thinks of this. Ayat 3183, what is the meaning without introducing allegorical interpretation attempt.
Also, I strongly suggest to anyone who wishes to understand the Quran and who is serious and genuine about it to make Arabic their fluent language by learning arabic, then they will be in a better position to get closest to the meaning, instead of relying on second source translation. The arabs have surrendered their brains to scholars, but fresh brains for whom this is not the case could make a marvelous contribution, plus it will help us get out of the mess this planet is currently in with fanaticism running rampant and what have you...
I also know where you are coming from, I am (or was) very westernised myself and my other native language is french, and I am as you can see very fluent in english.
This is nothing new the arguments we are having. You can refer to say why the philosopher Ibn Rushd was declared an apostate...
Good luck in your research.
Kind salams
Nabster
PS We also have to be very careful that by twisting the interpretations of the message, we do like some people do whose desire is only to get the easy way out so that they can do anything they want..., and I am sure you are not one of them...Peace bro,
I will get back to you soon mate, i just waked up and yet to wake up, LOL
but hey you are right the Quran told us about a miracle happened to the Jews when Allah caused a few of them to die then He made them alive again
I will elaborate soon
Cheers
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Peace Nabster
3183 is very clear bro and I?m sure you know that, but let?s walk through it again\
(Those are they) who said Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any messenger until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes. Say Indeed, there came to you messengers before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand; why then did you kill them if you are truthful?
(183)
-> Allah is telling us about some of the people, those who say ? Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any messenger until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes.?, they asked for a miracle, sort of the same one Adam sons used when they disputed their marriage to one of their sisters, anyway Allah is informing the prophet to say to them ? Indeed, there came to you messengers before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand?, clearly then prophet was telling them that what they asked for was sent before with other messengers however they never believed as well killed those messengers a bunch of lying criminals they are ? why then did you kill them if you are truthful? ?, see they are nothing but a bunch of liars
Clearly Allah told us that He sent this stype of miracle in the past with some other messengers that got killed by the disbelievers
Regarding the other miracle of killing a few jews then reviving them, sure it happened because Allah told us that it happened, here it is
55- And remember ye said "O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly," but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on.
56- Then We raised you up after your death that you may give thanks.
(55)
(56)What can I say bro?
Allah is telling us that those who said we will not believe until they see Allah was instantly put to death ? ?, ?Akhazatkum Al Saaika?, well, the verse is translated wrong, because the Arabic words means that they died instantly when they said that, this is obvious from the word ?Saaika? which is used many times in the Quran to indicate that Allah put tribes to death ?Thamood?, in addition to that in the following verse it was said boldly that they were revived after been put to death ? Then We raised you up after your death that you may give thanks.?, this thanks mentioned is clearly to thank Allah after He proved His existence to them while not revealing Himself at the same time, why he does that to a bunch of disbelievers while He didn?t do that to a mighty prophet ?Moses? when He asked to see Him, however in both cases Allah proved His existence, a believer will submit on the spot after the proof but the arrogant will still dispute Allah miracles
Salam Bro
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Excuse me bro, i just waked up and can't take more Quran manipulations by some confused muslims
Take care
Me too...
Nabster -
Salaam brother JM,
Andy, I will answer your questions, but first, could you expatiate why, assuming you have met the prophet, you would have believed his quran is a proof (of his messengership), a miracle ?
Is it because of its mathematical structure (code 19) ?That is an excellent question ...
I hope these verses can answer your question
26192 Now, behold, this has indeed been bestowed from on high by the Sustainer of all the worlds
26193 trustworthy divine inspiration has alighted with it from on high
26194 upon thy heart, so that thou mayest be among those who preach
26195 in the clear Arabic tongue.
26196 And, verily, this is indeed found in the ancient books of divine wisdom .
26197 Is it not evidence enough for them that learned men from among the children of Israel have recognized this ?Wassalam,
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Salaam brother JM,
Andy, I will answer your questions, but first, could you expatiate why, assuming you have met the prophet, you would have believed his quran is a proof (of his messengership), a miracle ?
Is it because of its mathematical structure (code 19) ?That is an excellent question ...
I hope these verses can answer your question
26192 Now, behold, this has indeed been bestowed from on high by the Sustainer of all the worlds
26193 trustworthy divine inspiration has alighted with it from on high
26194 upon thy heart, so that thou mayest be among those who preach
26195 in the clear Arabic tongue.
26196 And, verily, this is indeed found in the ancient books of divine wisdom .
26197 Is it not evidence enough for them that learned men from among the children of Israel have recognized this ?Wassalam,
Peace Andy,
Could you elaborate?
Is it the inner content of the message which would have convinced you, or something else?
Is it the consistency of the message of Muhammad with the ancient books?Are you really sure you would have been convinced without some supernatural event ?
Peace
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Salaam JM,
Peace Andy,
Could you elaborate?
Is it the inner content of the message which would have convinced you, or something else?
Is it the consistency of the message of Muhammad with the ancient books?Are you really sure you would have been convinced without some supernatural event ?
Quran is "supernatural event" )
309 Did they not roam the Earth and see how it ended for those before them? They were more powerful than them, and they cultivated the land and they built in it far more than these have built, and their messengers came to them with the proofs. God was not to wrong them, but it was they who wronged themselves.
My understanding is messengers came with proofs. This is very logical, since we cannot just follow some "righteous stuff" and attributed them to Allah. There are many "righteous stuff" out there which are not necessarily from Allah.
This is also the case for Muhammad. People at that time must have been presented with the proofs.
One of the interesting thing is the verse below
616 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"
This is from another thread
Remember that Allah told us that we will read the name Ahmad in the Tourat, this is indeed true with the current corrupt version of it
My logic is simple. If in the current corrupt version we can see the traces of truth, then it must have been much clearer in the original version. And I believe these verses can back up the logic.
26192 Now, behold, this has indeed been bestowed from on high by the Sustainer of all the worlds
26193 trustworthy divine inspiration has alighted with it from on high
26194 upon thy heart, so that thou mayest be among those who preach
26195 in the clear Arabic tongue.
26196 And, verily, this is indeed found in the ancient books of divine wisdom .
26197 Is it not evidence enough for them that learned men from among the children of Israel have recognized this ?That is only one of the possibilities. Allah knows best how the proofs were presented to people at that time.
Wassalam,
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Peace Andy,
That is only one of the possibilities. Allah knows best how the proofs were presented to people at that time.
What are the other possibilities, according to you?
Are they among the following?
? Splitting of the Moon
? Food Multiplication
? Water Multiplication
? Supplication for Rain
? Lights to guide Companions
? Crying of the stem of the Date-palm Tree
? Glorification of Allah by the Prophet's meals
? The explusion of a liar's corpse by the Earth
? The Speech of the Wolf
? The Prophet's Night Journey to Jerusalem and Ascent to the Heavens(cf http//www.sunnah.org/history/miracles_of_Prophet.htm)
Peace
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Salaam JM,
Peace Andy,
What are the other possibilities, according to you?
Are they among the following?
? Splitting of the Moon
? Food Multiplication
? Water Multiplication
? Supplication for Rain
? Lights to guide Companions
? Crying of the stem of the Date-palm Tree
? Glorification of Allah by the Prophet's meals
? The explusion of a liar's corpse by the Earth
? The Speech of the Wolf
? The Prophet's Night Journey to Jerusalem and Ascent to the Heavens(cf http//www.sunnah.org/history/miracles_of_Prophet.htm)
No
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Salaam JM,
Peace Andy,
What are the other possibilities, according to you?
Are they among the following?
? Splitting of the Moon
? Food Multiplication
? Water Multiplication
? Supplication for Rain
? Lights to guide Companions
? Crying of the stem of the Date-palm Tree
? Glorification of Allah by the Prophet's meals
? The explusion of a liar's corpse by the Earth
? The Speech of the Wolf
? The Prophet's Night Journey to Jerusalem and Ascent to the Heavens(cf http//www.sunnah.org/history/miracles_of_Prophet.htm)
No
OK, how do you explain this tendancy of the sunnis to fabricate false miracles about the prophet ?
What should be the other possibilities, then ?
They should be mentioned in the Quran, isn?t it ?And what do you think of this sign
Nay, here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.
Peace
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Salaam JM,
OK, how do you explain this tendancy of the sunnis to fabricate false miracles about the prophet ?
I was told in a thread here that the notion of shia 12 imams was "stolen" from persian. I also heard that the story of night ascencion was "stolen" from zoroastrian. So I guess that is how they fabricated the hadiths which is to justify what their fathers have been doing by "borrowing" the prophethood of Muhammad.
Another reason maybe to make an arab prophet superior to the prophets of children of Israel.
Regarding sunni and shia, they are only blindly following those fabrications.
What should be the other possibilities, then ?
They should be mentioned in the Quran, isn?t it ?Another possibility would be the language aspect of quran. I am taught that the language of quran is eloquent which is "far above" the human language. Since I don't speak arabic, I cannot really know "how far above" but that is quite logical considering the challenge below
223 And if you doubt any part of what We have, bestowed from on high, step by step, upon Our servant , then produce a surah of similar merit, and call upon any other than God to bear witness for you -if what you say is true!
Allah knows best how the proofs were presented at that time.
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Peace,
625 can be understood to mean those who actually take the metaphors in the verses to be literal.
Why?
Because if you argue that the events such as the splitting of the sea etc are real events then you make the metaphor which should be applicable in your own life nothing but an ancient story. The metaphor allows you to benefit from it, whereas insisting that it is an event gives you no benefit.
Note that the God does not shy away from citing metaphors. These are NOT ancient stories when treated as metaphors, but you are unwittingly holding to that very position that makes them nothing but ancient tales.
yes! I was just going to post about it then I saw Truth's post. Well said.
anyway,
About miracles, I don't think miracles exist. The ones in the Quran are metaphoric. The reason they don't exist is because they go against God's Laws. God doesn't break It's own laws and God doesn't need to break It's laws to prove It's existence. How ungrateful can we be?The question always is that if the Quran says something that doesn't get along with logic or science, then is it that the Quran is wrong or we don't know enough about this world?
The answer obviously can be either. We still have more to learn about this world no doubt. But theirs another question, why would God create a book which talks about things we don't understand yet??????????????? wouldn't that make us NOT believe in the book?????? I mean, that takes us to this argument many people use
the Quran will not make sense to you unless you first believe it is from God.
Which to me says "the Quran doesn't make sense but God can do strange things and so we should believe in the Quran."
This doesn't make sense to me. Going by that kind of thinking, we should all be following things that make no sense whatsoever.
There's a person who believes in the trinity BECAUSE it doesn't make any sense. Everything that makes sense must be man made, everything that doesn't should be from God because a man wouldn't invent stupid lies that no one in their right mind would believe.So going back to the underlined question, I would lean more towards the former.
I think there are two choices, either the Quran is wrong, or
It doesn't contain any "scientific miracles" or unkown knowledge but everything is metaphorical. -
And you think that talking in allegories and metaphors is always easy to understand, especially the ones you are putting forward? Most people are simple minded, and most of them do understand if you say the word miracle. Just witness why is it a lot of people get astray through the ages when someone comes and fools them with magick...
Wake up mr phoenix1/idolfree to the truth... you are not giving God the credit He is due...
Nabster -
In fact I will further tell you that there is no reality, this is all a test... The reality lies with Allah, everything else is just smokes and mirrors to distinguish between those who give thanks and those who stay rebellious...
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peace
The Quran isn't for "simple minded" people. It's for people who think. Symbolism is hard to understand, And I don't understand much of it yet, I admit. But I realize that the only thing that makes the Quran believable is taking those stories as metaphors. If you take them literally, then your belief in the Quran is blind.
If you are too lazy to think, or just want something to blindly believe in, I recommend the Bible.And what is easier to do, make stories with or without a deeper, symbolic meaning?
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peace
Are you questioning Allah's words that this Quran is easy to understand, and that it was revealed to all mankind?
You will get all your answers when you are shunted from causes and effects on your departure day... -
Mate read the quran better or learn arabic...
And Allah said to the doubtful, they will know this Quran as they know their own children...