Satan - Fallen Angel Or Not?
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If you have some time, you can read http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1914.0
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peace ahmed
why was satan originally not an angel? Weren't the angels asked to fall prostrate?
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peace ahmed
why was satan originally not an angel? Weren't the angels asked to fall prostrate?
Peace bro
because Allah was clear as light "Allah said Iblis was from the Jinn"
what else bro you need to prove that Iblis was a Jinn?, isn't Allah enough of a witness?
regarding the angels that were asked to prostrate, well, as I said there are millions of angels and just one Jinn who was bad already so why Allah put him in a category that equivlent to the all mighty angels including Jebril and other might ones?, it seems to me that Iblis was giving a task to do as the angels do, therefore it ia quite possible that it is metaphorically used to include Iblis as well
the bottom line is , to use this argument to prove that Iblis was an angel, is very weak because Allah clearly told us that Iblis was a Jinn and He never told us that Iblis was an angel
Salam
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peace
what else bro you need to prove that Iblis was a Jinn?, isn't Allah enough of a witness?
I am not saying that Ibliss is not a jinn. He is.
i was actually referring to a possiblitly that jinns are angels who rebelled/rejected.
234 And We said to the Angels "Yield to Adam," so they yielded except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
God is SPECIFICALLY telling the ANGELS to fall down before Adam. Also Satan BECAME a rejecter which means he wasn't a rejecter before.
just like if we disobey God we're no longer believers. We are rejecters.
And if Satan WAS already evil before this event why would he be allowed anywhere near paradise? Do evil ones get into paradise?
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peace
what else bro you need to prove that Iblis was a Jinn?, isn't Allah enough of a witness?
I am not saying that Ibliss is not a jinn. He is.
Peace
Good, so if you concluded that he was a Jinn, what is you are asking about exactly?
i was actually referring to a possiblitly that jinns are angels who rebelled/rejected.
well, he can't be because Allah never said so, but i may accept that he was a jinn that was given an angel status "as a title but not physically be one" when Allah was fooling him due to his hypocricy and arrogance, however Allah can make him an angel after he was a jinn then restored him back to a jinn status after he was exposed as Allah planned, this might explain that Allah used the past tense of verb to be "Kana from the Jinns", i.e. he was given a temporary title of an angel or possibly was converted temporarly to an angel "Allah can do anything" but it seems this part was not important for us to know or even was kept secret so the conjecrures advicates have a lot of fun doing what they love, at the end of the day this is just conjectures and Allah never told us about it but "He was one of the Jinn"
234 And We said to the Angels "Yield to Adam," so they yielded except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
as I said before
God is SPECIFICALLY telling the ANGELS to fall down before Adam. Also Satan BECAME a rejecter which means he wasn't a rejecter before.
Satan was a rejector before he rejected and Allah knew that for sure
just like if we disobey God we're no longer believers. We are rejecters.
not sure what is your point, however if you agree that Iblis was one of the Jinns as Allah told us then we have no problem, anyone including myself who tells you anything but that must be conjecture
And if Satan WAS already evil before this event why would he be allowed anywhere near paradise? Do evil ones get into paradise?
Well, according to Allah, Iblis was set up and one of these conjectures may be valid but we will never know at least for now
- He was temproraly given a metaphorically angel status "like a title" as part of the setup plan
- He was temproraly converted physically from a jinn to an angel as part of the setup plan
regardless of any of the conjectures above you go for, i'm sure about one fact, that Iblis was one of the Jinns
Salam
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Salam
Ahmed Bro
May I add something...
While Adam and Eve got fooled and failed the test, they were not in a state of Imaan but still were kept in the Garden, until they got kicked out, so Allah can keep ones in the Garden as he pleases, even if they are in a state of rejection.
As for the conjecture that Ibliss was turned temporarily to an Angel, I am not comfortable with it because the Angel state is one of pure obedience. Example Harut and Marut had to assume human state form to do what they did (fitna to mankind), so I think Ibliss was still a Jinn when he was in the Garden and Allah is able to do all things...
Allah knows best as always
Peace
Nabster -
Salam
Ahmed Bro
May I add something...
While Adam and Eve got fooled and failed the test,Peace mate
I donlt think it was a test bro, it was a plan by Allah to give Adam an awesome experience so he can transfer the messege to his children in a more serious manner, Allah clearly forgave Adam on the spot as well Allah before creating Adam, said to the angels that He will create humans on earth, so we menat to be on earth fromj the first place, it was a lesson to Adam and for all of us, it was not a test because the real test was planned to be on this earth
they were not in a state of Imaan but still were kept in the Garden,
I believe they were true believers, they talked to Allah Himeself, I guess they just didn't have any experience dealing with the devil hence Allah made them gain the experience while loosing nothing because they were meant to be on earth as 230 is telling us
until they got kicked out, so Allah can keep ones in the Garden as he pleases, even if they are in a state of rejection.
not sure about that bro, but what I'm sure about that Allah forgave Adam on the spot, but He still sent Him to earth because he meant to be there from the first place however Adam now have experience that he can transfer to all of us
As for the conjecture that Ibliss was turned temporarily to an Angel, I am not comfortable with it because the Angel state is one of pure obedience.
neither me bro, I was only saying it to those who love conjectures, and it still stands as a string logic against their search for nothing, clearly Allah told us that "He is Qadir Ala Kul Shai", therefore any thing we can thing of, Allah can do it, even if it involves turing a jin to an angel or vice verse, there is no limit to Allah power
Example Harut and Marut had to assume human state form to do what they did (fitna to mankind), so I think Ibliss was still a Jinn when he was in the Garden and Allah is able to do all things...
Allah knows best as always
Peace
NabsterI say it is quite possibly that he was ranked as an angel, because the argument that "All the angels prostrated EXCEPT Iblis" is a very strong one
what I'm trying to say for those who want to chase it further then it is quite possible that Allah gave the rank of an angel to Iblis "metaphorically", as part of His plan to fool and expose him
Allah knows best and I really care not if Iblis was an angel or not or even morphed into an angel, all I care and positive about that Iblis was one of the Jinns
Peace bro
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Peace
How wonderful to see that we can agree on what Allah taught us ) -
As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.I agree, Ibliss was and is a Jinn. >D
He will try to decieve us until the End of Time. elektro
We must always seek Allah Most Merciful for help, guidence and protection. jediAs salamu alaykum. muscle
Hey bro
I'm working on a flash movie regarding this subject, please keep an eye, I'm sure you will love it if you can see the message within
Take care
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peace ahmed
i wasn't saying that Satan is not a jinn! He clearly is. I am saying he became one after he refused to obey God and became arrogant. I am saying that jinns and angels are only different in title. That satan wasn't always evil. The message of this story is that EVERYBODY can go astray, if they let their ego get in the way. Which has been the down-fall of the human race.
Humans = Believers = Rejecters
The Unseen = Jinns = Angels
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peace ahmed
peace mate
i wasn't saying that Satan is not a jinn! He clearly is. I am saying he became one after he refused to obey God and became arrogant.
how he became a jinn and he was a jinn?
I am saying that jinns and angels are only different in title. That satan wasn't always evil.
there is nothing to indicate that Iblis was ever good entity in the Quran, therefore assunimg that he was is conjecture, we just don't know and Allah never told us that piece of info
The message of this story is that EVERYBODY can go astray, if they let their ego get in the way. Which has been the down-fall of the human race.
of course there is a message in the story and possibly any story we hear of, however I don't consider the fall of Adam and his mate to earth was a downfall, rather it was meant to be even before Adam was created, it was only done this way to associte it with a very important lesson
Humans = Believers = Rejecters
and the Jinns = Believers = Rejecters
The Unseen = Jinns = Angels
I guess there are many other things that are unseen, for example a true story that happened 8000 years ago is not seen for us but sure it happened because I called it a true story, and you can only be certain that it is a true story if the teller is Allah not any human even prophets
Salam
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peace ahmed
we just don't know and Allah never told us that piece of info
Yes but Allah told us that he told the angels to fall prostrate and they all fell except Satan.
This is not at-all a firm understanding. I like to keep my options open. I think it's the best way to go.
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peace ahmed
we just don't know and Allah never told us that piece of info
Yes but Allah told us that he told the angels to fall prostrate and they all fell except Satan.
This is not at-all a firm understanding. I like to keep my options open. I think it's the best way to go.
as I agreed that this is a string argument however Allah has refutyed it and He said He was one of the Jinn and I'm sure you know that Jinns are not angels, so if Allah said so and He didn't say how Iblis was within the angels when the order of prostrating was passed, why you want to make him an angel?, I'm also puzzled by keeping your mind open comment, is it like when a human being comes and tell you whatever that iblis was ranked or converted to an angel, will you believe that human?, and if you do how this will infleunce your belief in Allah and the last day?
Salam
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As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.I agree, Ibliss was and is a Jinn. >
He will try to decieve us until the End of Time. elektro
We must always seek Allah Most Merciful for help, guidence and protection. jediAs salamu alaykum. muscle
Hey bro
I'm working on a flash movie regarding this subject, please keep an eye, I'm sure you will love it if you can see the message within
Take care
As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.Thanks bro.
I'll keep my eyes open.As salamu alakyum.