God and Eternal Hell
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Peace,
I look at it this way.The Quran tells us that the universe will keep evolving. Djenna and Gehenna are mostly states of mind, not physical places. It is because their state of mind has effect on the surroundings, which by we can say, that Gehenna and Djenna pours out of their minds into the collective reality.
Djenna means garden in foilage, which refers that the ground is covered by the trees. The trees stand for the deeds, and the ground for where the deeds come from. The results are the fruits of those trees. That we will keep on living is a fact given in the Quran, but in the state we will live and live now, is called Gehenna or Djenna.
Gehenna is an old valley near Jerusalem, Ja=valley Hannam=valley name. People used to be sacrificed there to idols, also the valley was used later on as an execution ground for criminals and also a place were bodies and clothing were burned, who had died of a contagious diseas.
So what does this valley represent? In the days of Jesus, the term Gehenna was already used for stagnation. If you were an idolator, in the old days you would have ended up in Gehenna to sacrifice to your idols. If you were a criminal, you would have ended up in Gehenna to be executed. if you were a sickness to society, you would have ended up in Gehenna. So Gehenna became the metaphor for certain qualities of human actions.
So it is a metaphor for a certain state of mind, to be an idolator, criminal and so on, you have to be in a certain state of mind to think like that. Gehenna is the over-all name for those states of mind.
Throughout the Quran, God gives us examples of ways of thinking. Think like this, and you are/end up in Gehenna.
1046 A Fire kindled by Allah. (His Law of 'As you sow, so shall you reap'.
1047 Which originates in, and engulfs, the hearts.
1048 Verily, it closes upon them. (As they had kept their possessions closed
in vaults, and kindness surrounded in the flames of rivalry)
1049 In extended columns.To be in Djenna means to have the best deeds to get the best results in life. The tree of Adam and spouse, was a deed that gave not the best result, and by thus, they were metaphorically thrown out of this state of mind(Djenna).
How you think determines your deeds, and by thus your influence on your surroundings. The best deeds creates the best influence on your surroundings. It is like Djenna pours out of your mind and covers the reality. The more people who think like this, the more effect it will have on the enviroment we live in.
So in the next life there will be as much Gehenna and Djenna as in this life. Deep inside people know they are doing wrong, that they are in Gehenna.
3919 On the other hand, he who has inevitably deserved suffering (for his persistence in following the non-divine ?authorities?) - can you save someone who is already consumed in the Fire?
1697 Whoever, whether male or female, does works that help others and is a believer, We shall certainly cause them to live a good life, and We shall grant them the rewards considering the best of their actions.
4131 We are close to you in the life of the world and in the Hereafter. In it (in your paradise on the earth and in the Hereafter) you shall have all that you may desire and in it you shall have all that you ever prayed for.
(see also 1062, 7213 and more)
God says in the Quran that everyone will see Gehenna, which refers to that everyone has been in that state of mind, somewhere in their life(1971).
The purpose of the universe, is that eventually everyone will have learned, and there will be no more Gehenna-states of mind.
11106 Now those who by their deeds brought misery on themselves will be in the Fire; sighing and wailing will be their portion. (21100).
11107 Therein to abide, as long as the New Universe endures; that is time beyond count, unless your Lord decrees otherwise. Your Lord is Doer of what He Wills in the World of Command. (The current Universe will be dismantled for a new Universe 544, 1448, 21104, 2522, 3937, 6916, 709).As long God deems it neccesary, people will be in that state of mind. But look at the difference between these verses above and the verse that comes after it
11108 The happy ones on that Day will enter the Garden and live there as long as the New Universe endures, that is time beyond count; until your Lord opens for them the way to further evolution, a gift unfailing.
With the verses about Gehenna, we don't see something like 'a punishment unfailing'.
We only see this with Djenna 'a gift unfailing'.In my eyes this means, the Gehenna states of mind, will be somewhere in the evolution of the universe, to be left behind, as humankind has learned enough not to be no more in that state of mind. So everyone will be in Djenna, and creating paradise in our lives. Which will go on forever, a true gift unfailing...
It is time we truly understand the beautifull metaphors God has given in the Quran. And stop believing in the mythical heavens and hell we took over from the greeks and persians.
Resurrection Day, is the period when all humans will be born again in the next universe. This law of Nature has been discovered now, and shows that everything is already programmed into the blue print of the universe
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0
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Peace Joe and arnoldyasin,
I have no qualms if god commands mankind to truth, honesty, equality, justice. One of the main reasons I return to Islam is when I realise, after reading free-minds and other liberal and progressive muslim literature, that God wants us to uphold these values.
As to the reasons why I consider heaven/hell to be allegorical or symbolic - I find it hard to accept the doctrine of being tortured eternally and at the same the same time upholding justice and compassion.
And as to what these allegories mean, I have to thank arnoldyasin in his post for planting the seeds of understanding.
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Peace,
No problem splatter, i was on the same road as you, till i was freed by this knowledge. When you look carefully the Quran gives many hints Gehenna and Djenna are states of mind, as people of Gehenna can still talk with the people of Djenna. More importantly, Iblis was already thrown out of Djenna, and 2 verses later he is talking with Adam who is still in Djenna! This can only mean Djenna is not the mythical physical place, but a state of mind, plus that iblis/sjeitan is the evil side of mankind, not a physical entity.
I'm writing an article on this, when i'm done, i will post it later on....
Peace
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Peace
I find it hard to accept the doctrine of being tortured eternally and at the same the same time upholding justice and compassion.
You're not explaining how it is unjust. Why would the reverse, union with God, be just?
Should the one who sought such union and the one in opposition have the very same outcomes for all their labour?
Joe
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Peace
I find it hard to accept the doctrine of being tortured eternally and at the same the same time upholding justice and compassion.
You're not explaining how it is unjust. Why would the reverse, union with God, be just?
Should the one who sought such union and the one in opposition have the very same outcomes for all their labour?
Joe
Peace,
Joe, I agree that one who sought a union should not have the very same outcome for their labour. But I do not agree that one who do not sought such union should be tortured. I will never torture anyone. And I expect a compassionate God not too either.
Thanks arnoldyasin, I look forward to the article.
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Peace Splatter
I'm interested to know what you would expect a Just God to do with those who have raped, killed and plundered while oppressing and humiliating others all in the name of carnal desires...
In my opinion as to what is the nature of heaven and hell, we only seem to know that they are unlike anything we as humans have ever experienced... therefore, any theories could be good possibilities as to what the nature might be, but could only be that -until the Appointed Time.
Peace All
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Peace
I will never torture anyone.
You're not God , but I do not believe God the torturer you may have on your mind about Him.
To each man a portion is meted out. His/her dealings therein determine their outcome.
And I expect a compassionate God not too either.
Expectations...when God has to meet any of His creation's expectations I shall laugh in His face and disregard Him as my rabb .
To me, your reasoning is like saying death is wrong and I disregard the God of the Quran because He is a killer, or bringer of death . It is not fair and no compassionate God should destroy people or creation.
I think God has the capacity to do as He will with His creation regardless of our own expectations. Moses, though wise, was humbled when being the impatient human that pervades our race. He was shown that what may seem bad to our eyes always works out for our betterment if we are aware and seeking growth . A moral I learn is to have patience in the face of the seemingly 'unfair'.
Joe
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Peace Splatter
I'm interested to know what you would expect a Just God to do with those who have raped, killed and plundered while oppressing and humiliating others all in the name of carnal desires...
In my opinion as to what is the nature of heaven and hell, we only seem to know that they are unlike anything we as humans have ever experienced... therefore, any theories could be good possibilities as to what the nature might be, but could only be that -until the Appointed Time.
Peace All
peace soul2squeeze,
They should be punished but torture is not one of them.
As for the nature of heaven and hell, I have to agree with you. I only have a problem with torture for mere disbelief in the concept of physical hell. It's either I reject this concept of hell or accept it and be patient to its seemingly unfairness. I'm more inclined to align with the former.
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Peace,
No problem bro. I'm busy with writing an article on it, when it's done i'll post. And remember, yaumweDeen is mostly translated wrong with 'day of judgement'. Yaumwe can mean any time period as can be seen with the verses that use it for a moment(5529) and 50.000 years(704). So yaumwe can be a splitsecond as well as eternity. So Yaumwedeen refers to that the Law of God is always working any moment of the day, every second of your excistence.
The 'Day of Judgement' was taken over by the Christians who took it from the Egyptians. This later on found it's way into the understanding of the Quran.
The Quran talks about certain moments inside the Yaumwedeen and not any specific 'day' or moment. Your death is one moment inside the yaumwedeen, as well the moment you are reading this post, as well your next life. So yaumwedeen refers to the eternal law of God working in the creation. Yaumwedeen is present at any moment in your excistence.
When understanding the true meaning of yaumwedeen, the true understanding of Gehenna and Djenna becomes clear that they are states of mind, as the people of Gehenna can talk with the people of Djenna(744-50) but that there is a veil of difference between the 2 states of mind(746), and that the people of Djenna don't feel the flames of Gehenna because of the difference of thinking(21102).
Now try to approach all the verses that have Yauwedeen, Gehenna and Djenna in them, in the way i have explained in the posts, and you will see how clear and beautifull they will become.
Yaumwedeen is directly explained by this verse
996 That period(Yaumwe), the people proceed/arise separately to see their deeds.
7 So who makes/does a smallest particle of anything (smaller than an atom's) weight (of) good sees it.
8 And who makes/does a smallest particle of anything (smaller than an atom's) weight (of) bad/evil sees it.Paradis is already here if you want to see it
3133 Move forward eagerly to the tranquil security that comes from your Lord, and to the Paradise that transcends spatial boundaries, encompassing the Heavens and the Earth. It has already been prepared for those who live upright. (Paradise is not confined to the Heavens. Like Hell, it begins right here in this worldly life).Peace
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Peace all,
The HUGE difference between the ecstasy of heaven en torture of hell emphasizes the heaviness of human responsibility to make the right choices. HERE and NOW!
responsible of THE freedom in choice. To become a savior or To become a murderer. One grows to heaven and the other disintegrates to Hell.
So again the question is not How the Hell is and its mechanism works, but why it exists and what is its implication HERE and NOW. To which purpose does it add up to ? for us all.
peace,
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Peace All
responsible of THE freedom in choice. To become a savior or To become a murderer. One grows to heaven and the other disintegrates to Hell.
Excellent interpretation!
My own opinion of heaven and hell relies heavily on sufi readings and it parallels your interpretation as well. I would like to say it's Avicenna but I really don't remember exactly who I'm quoting this from. Perhaps it is a mixture of many explanations I read back when I was really into reading about Islamic Mysticism.
To be able to withstand the presence of God, your soul must be very strong. Doing what God commands makes it stronger, and the opposite makes it weaker. Therefore, the stronger your soul is in the end, the closer you will be able to be to God. The closer you are to God, the more positive the whole atmosphere is. God is good and good eminates from Him. The farther away you are, the worse the conditions become. You may try to come closer but you will not be able to withstand it, hence doomed forever in eternal hell. In other words, hell is the state of the absence of God. Exactly what would be in heaven and hell on the other hand is questionable. Perhaps it is physical, perhaps it is mental, perhaps it is all a feeling. Perhaps it's some of each. We won't really know for sure until we're there. I think it's more important to focus on our actions today instead of what we don't know about.
But I understand splatter's point. It's not what exactly will hell be but why God chooses to punish people for not believing in Him. I think some of the past posts answered what I would answer too so I won't repeat )Peace All
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The Allah (a Supreme Male Idol), the Allat, Aluzzah and Mannat (daughters of Allah), The Fire/s (burning hell pits of various levels whom people worshipped and where disbelievers and infidels were burnt and dumped ALIVE), The Paradises (several luxurious gardens from lower levels to upper class where believers of this man-made deity named Allah, rejoiced and merry-making with food, wine and beautiful virgins) and thousands of other man-made idols (including that of animals, birds and winged creatures) were created out of "potter's clay" - a sticky like substance (clay + water to make idols of all sorts - talk about embryology ). This is just a glimpse of what literally happened in those barbaric idolworshipping times and the Quran makes it even clearer from an ancient distant standpoint and as well as what we witness today the reminiscence in Mecca and Mina and the indoctrinated behavioral patterns that exhibit in Muslims throughout the world in general.
edit given the male gender of this One Supreme man-made deity to become a physical lively one, no wonder it is represented by a HE, HIM and HIS along with the attributes of an omnipresent, omniscience, all-powerful and so forth, which the Muslims until today cannot figure this one out and are in total collapse and denial.
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Peace Danish
I don't understand why you start threads and just vanish in mid-thought.
Please stick around if you're gonna talk smackAs for your perceptions of Allah being a male idol, you are misusing the english. In Arabic, every object is either feminine or masculine. It doesn't mean a table is actually a female ...
As for your interpretation that Allah was an idol created out of clay, please provide evidence, or else don't inject false conjecture. As we know from the quran, every community knew/will know of the Oneness of God. If Arabs of the time, took that information and twisted it to revert back to idolatry and create the "daughters of Allah" that does not necessarily prove that Allah was an idol made up by people. You made an assumption you simply can't make when making an extraordinary accusation. Give us an air-tight account of history with evidence, without any assumptions to fill in the gaps, and we might believe you.
I'm sure eventually you'll back out of this thread as well. You even locked one, forever stopping the flow of thoughts after you made up a whole theory out of thin air (i.e. his-lam, mis-lam, mary had a little lamb )
I don't know if i even want you to answer because you may insult my deen and my Creator even more. For your sake, I hope you run away again instead of react as you normally do.
Peace All