Salat Article (NEW)

arnoldyasin

Peace,

I'm very interrested in the debate about nisaa not only refering to women. I have to make the comment to samia, that in that verse women are as much approached as men. When you have touched the women, but women then immedialtely know it also implies to them, as it works vice-versa. And layth, good article bro, yours is the best i have seen till now...

FJ

Selam all and Brother Layth I congrat you for this very well written article on Salat, may God bless you.

Bro Jafar that's a very interesting piece of info you provided about jews in regard to salat, cograts to you 2.

The oath of alleigance is to remind us of the covenant we had with God that we will serve no one but Him and that we will not ask no on else for help, right?

God be glorified,

God bless
FJ

Interesting Layth...

The (observant) Jew still do their 'allegiance'/'shalat'.
By uttering the Shema while facing Jerusalem..

Sh'ma Yisrael YHVH Elohaynu YHVH Echad.
V-ahavta et YHVH Elohecha b-chol l'vavcha u-v-chol naf'sh'cha u-v-chol m'odecha.

Hear, Israel, YHVH is our God, YHVH is One.
And you shall love YHVH your God with all your heart and with all your breath/soul and with all your might.

Although they changed YHVH with Adonai which means "Our Lord".

The Karaites (minority among the Jews) still do their Shema with full prostration

"Karaites often practice full prostration during prayers, which is practiced by most Jews only on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur."
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaites

Karaites is a group of Jews which REJECTS the TALMUD and the MISHNA.
TALMUD = "Opinion of Rebbe / Judaism Priest" in our term "Ijma Ulema".
MISHNA = The 'reported' sayings of Moshe in our term "Hadith".

The Karaites is declared as 'heretic' by the Rabbanic Jews.
And often in history faced with heavy persecution by the rabbanic priest / authority.

The Karaites had many striking similarities with the "Quran Only" people on this forum.. ;D
(Rejects the oral sayings thus persecuted and declared heretics by the Sunni/Shiah Priest)

Peace

Alen

As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.

One question did Jews, Christians ever prayed like we pray today?
Because i read an article somwhere that they did but because they aded mishna and gemarah and trinity, they chenged their minds.

As salamu alaykum. jedi

brook

The oath of alleigance is to remind us of the covenant we had with God that we will serve no one but Him and that we will not ask no on else for help, right?

Peace FJ.

Do you mean "salaat" by the oath of allegiance?

TurkishMan also finds it interesting that salawaat is our allegiances, which you mention as the covenant we had with God. I agree but with this reservation

Our salaat is an attempt on our part to acknowlwedge the covenant, rather than the covenant itself, we had with God. The covenant is what happened in the past whereas salaat is what is happening now. I read the same understanding in your post. Do I get it right?

I have not read Layth's article yet. I may have other things to say when I read it.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Elke

Peace,

I'm very interrested in the debate about nisaa not only refering to women. I have to make the comment to samia, that in that verse women are as much approached as men. When you have touched the women, but women then immedialtely know it also implies to them, as it works vice-versa. And layth, good article bro, yours is the best i have seen till now...

Peace all, i also am very interested by this discussion - nisaa - rajel...

But Arnold, as far as i remember ithe verse says - if 'you' have touched the women 'you' should "wash" - the 'you' referring to the masculine... so the vice-versa is not established so clearly . Or am i wrong ? - i'd love you to prove me wrong on this ... !)

Peace all, lk

Wakas

peace Layth,

I read the article. It has some improvements compared to past ones, but still contains weaknesses in my opinion.

I dont have time to go into them now, but I have mentioned them to you and in the forum before.

Also, I would recommend you keeping a list of your "salat" articles online, so people can see the progression and in some cases, returning to past ideas.

Thanks for uploading one of my articles on "salat" in the "what's new" section

Wakas

unknownuser

Peace Layth,

Overall, I'd say you have written a very good and well thought out article. I always enjoy reading your work and I thank you for sharing your phases of understanding on the salat issue.

I have three issues that I'd like to bring up about your article. Two of them are concerning an understanding that you have aired out in the article and the third is a view of mine that I thought I'd share.

The first thing I want to point out is your belief in the facing of the temple at Baka as the Qiblah. I would like to know how you made that connection as per Quran. I have read the verses that you have used in your article to support this view, but there aren't any verses that I know of which connect Baka to Qiblah. If there are such verses that I am not aware of, please let me kow of them. If there are no such verses, I would like to know how you came to this particular conclusion.

My second concern is salaatul jum'a.

You translated 629 as

O you who believe, when the oath of allegiance is called to at time of public gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew.

You left out the definate article AL which is written in the original Arabic text...

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha noodiya lilssalati min yawmi ALjumuAAati faisAAaw ila thikri Allahi watharoo albayAAa thalikum khayrun lakum in kuntum taAAlamoona

Therefor, the correct translation should be

O you who believe, when the oath of allegiance is called to at THE time of public gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew.

In Arabic, we all know that the definate article al speaks of something specific as opposed to something general. It is more on the lines of a one of a kind type scenario. As much work and effort will have to be put into it, we have to research and determine what this specific day is and I am certain that the answer is in the Quran.

You have come to the conclusion that this can be any day of public gathering which I think the Arabic of the quran makes that assessment incorrect.

One more thing I would like to comment on is the preparation for the salat which you have used 56 to ascertain. I would like to share an understanding that I have had for quite some time now wich I have never posted here until now. If this conclusion was already arrived at by people here then I guess I am merely beating a dead horse.

But, I feel as though that 56 informs us of what conditions obligate us to clean ourselves in preparation for salat. According to 56, there are 5 things which obligate us to clean ourselves before the salat

If we had sexual intercourse with our spouses.

2). If we had defecated in the bathroom.

If we are ill.
If we have been traveling.

I believe the 5th thing is spoken of in the beginning of this verse

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ITHA QUMTUM ila alssalati faighsiloo wujoohakum waaydiyakum ila almarafiqi waimsahoo biruoosikum waarjulakum ila alkaAAbayni wa-in kuntum junuban faittahharoo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin aw jaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumu alnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedan tayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum minhu ma yureedu Allahu liyajAAala AAalaykum min harajin walakin yureedu liyutahhirakum waliyutimma niAAmatahu AAalaykum laAAallakum tashkuroona

O you who believe, IF YOU RISE to perform the oath of allegiance, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.

I take this to mean ITHA/IF we rise from a state of sleep or napping and I base it on 5248-49

Waisbir lihukmi rabbika fa-innaka bi-aAAyunina wasabbih bihamdi rabbika HEENA TAQOOMU
Wamina allayli fasabbihhu wa-idbara alnnujoomi

Paying attention to the wording at the end of verse 48 and the beginning of verse 49 appears to clarify this.

You shall be patient for the judgement of your Lord, for you are in Our sights; and glorify the praise of your Lord WHEN YOU RISE.

Also from the night glorify Him and after the appearance of the stars.

The term wa-min (and from) in the beginning of verse 49 is used to contrast the term heena taqoomu at the end of verse 48.

Thus, it is clear to me that if I am not ill, have not been traveling, did not just get done making stool in the bathroom, I have not had sexual contact with my spouse and I did not just aqamu/rise from sleep, then I can go ahead and observe the salat without the need to wash my face, hands, elbows, head and feet.

This is an understanding I have been reluctant to share upto this point.

I wouldn't mind hearing others feedback on this.

Peace,
Damon.

Wakas

peace Damon,

Nice observation! I will need to ponder on this some more, but looks pretty solid.

Its good to share.

Wakas

Samia

Waisbir lihukmi rabbika fa-innaka bi-aAAyunina wasabbih bihamdi rabbika HEENA TAQOOMU

Wamina allayli fasabbihhu wa-idbara alnnujoomi

Idbar is the opposite of to appear to return/ go back, to set (in the case of stars).

But my comment concerns the verb qaam (root qaf waw meem). If not followed by any preposition (and an indirect object) it means to stand (opposite of to sit, lie down, kneel). The noun al-qaamatu is given to the human body in the state of standing up (anatomical position)

220 "The lightening almost snatches away their sight Whenever it flashes for them they walk, and when darkness covers them they stand still qaamuu".

7219 "And when the 3abd of Allah stood up "qaama" to pray to Him "yad3uuhu" they almost formed a dense crowd around him"

1814 "...when they stood up "qaamuu" and said (Our Lord is the Lord of the Heavens and the Earth...)

It could also mean to make up one's mind; decide (hence alrejaalu qawwaamuuna 3alal nisaa' 434)

I would say that TAQOOMU in

Waisbir lihukmi rabbika fa-innaka bi-aAAyunina wasabbih bihamdi rabbika HEENA TAQOOMU

means when you stand up for salaat.

Interestingly, I find that this confirms Layth's "salaat" article where he demonstrated that "salat" is to be performed in the standing position, a conclusion I was not aiming at!!

Kashif

thanks Layth for the excellent article. After reading your article, I am beginning to think that salat can be performed by performing two rakas of sunni prayer except only its dedicated alone to God and nobody else as you clearly pointed out in your article.

I have question about following Is this error or I am missing something?

Quote from the article

How Could People Lose/Distort The Salat Details?

With a total of three Salat times with a specific structure outlines in the Scripture, the question that presents itself is how can the people who received the Torah and Injeel (Jews & Nazarines) as well as the people who received the message of the Quran have distorted the Salat and lost its details?

on a little down on the summary you said two times

Salat for the believers is conducted regularly at two times each day (2458, 1778, 11114).

Samia

Salaam Kashef

I also noticed this discrepancy, but forgot to ask.

FJ

Peace all

Brother Brook you asked me if I ment Salat is the covenant we had with God. I did not say it is the covenant I asked wheather it is to also remind us of that covenant we had with God when we said that we will not serve anyone except Him and that we will not ask anyone else for help... see at the end of the sentence I put a question mark after the word "right", which means I asked wheather the salat (oath of alleigance) is to remind us of that.

Brother Damon that is a really good observation, why hesitate to share something like that??? Well, maybe you waited for the right moment bravo

Peace all... see we are learning smth new every day.
FJ

The oath of alleigance is to remind us of the covenant we had with God that we will serve no one but Him and that we will not ask no on else for help, right?

Peace FJ.

Do you mean "salaat" by the oath of allegiance?

TurkishMan also finds it interesting that salawaat is our allegiances, which you mention as the covenant we had with God. I agree but with this reservation

Our salaat is an attempt on our part to acknowlwedge the covenant, rather than the covenant itself, we had with God. The covenant is what happened in the past whereas salaat is what is happening now. I read the same understanding in your post. Do I get it right?

I have not read Layth's article yet. I may have other things to say when I read it.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Elke

Peace all

damon wrote
Thus, it is clear to me that if I am not ill, have not been traveling, did not just get done making stool in the bathroom, I have not had sexual contact with my spouse and I did not just aqamu/rise from sleep, then I can go ahead and observe the salat without the need to wash my face, hands, elbows, head and feet.

Agree but add that the cleaning has to be done at some point before prayer and after the action (stool, sleep, sex,...) - this is if the verses are taken litterally.

In general it could also just be an invitation to be clean.

Elke

Tay

Peace Layth, Damon, All,

Layth, my first read-through and what stood out was the excellence of structure and flow of the article. I thought you supported each progressive concept well. It did provoke some thoughts and questions, which I'll be detailing as I take notes during the second read-through. Excellent work.

Damon

Thus, it is clear to me that if I am not ill, have not been traveling, did not just get done making stool in the bathroom, I have not had sexual contact with my spouse and I did not just aqamu/rise from sleep, then I can go ahead and observe the salat without the need to wash my face, hands, elbows, head and feet.

This is an understanding I have been reluctant to share upto this point.

I wouldn't mind hearing others feedback on this.

A brilliant observation brother. Thanks for sharing, and I'm looking forward to getting to the bottom of this.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace everybody,

Peace FJ,

Brother Damon that is a really good observation, why hesitate to share something like that??? Well, maybe you waited for the right moment bravo

Well, in a way I sorta waited from the standpoint that I had to be solid in this understanding before I try to lay it out before others. I definately was not trying to babysit this understanding for myself.

Peace Elke,

Agree but add that the cleaning has to be done at some point before prayer and after the action (stool, sleep, sex,...) - this is if the verses are taken litterally.

I agree whole-heartedly. The cleaning process should be done between the impurification act and the salat.

In general it could also just be an invitation to be clean.

I have a hard time seeing it that way mainly for two reasons.

One reason is that there is a reason and wisdom behind each commandment that is given to us in the quran. I disagree with the notion that I have read by some people in different forums that the command to become clean before salat is merely a test of obedience.

Another reason I disagree with that understanding is because GOD Does Not make it a point to emphasize becoming clean in other verses of the quran as he does in 56 and 443 in prepparation for salat. On that note, if GOD wanted to generally invite us to be clean, I'm sure He would have just said so in any verse(s) in a general way instead of focusing on it as He does for the preparation of salat.

Peace Tay,

A brilliant observation brother. Thanks for sharing, and I'm looking forward to getting to the bottom of this.

Me too bro. I have been pondering and researching on this for about a month or two now. There is more that I can add to this explanation to further drive home my understanding, but GOD Willing I can add them as the discussion progresses.

Peace all,
Damon.

Elke

Peace damon

Another reason I disagree with that understanding is because GOD Does Not make it a point to emphasize becoming clean in other verses of the quran as he does in 56 and 443 in prepparation for salat.

May be this is the case because salat also is the ongoing bond that we should respect at all times of our life - and not only a 'salat' times - which would IMO lead to a general incitation of staying clean - physically and morally.

You can see here that i share the view of arnold and soul2squeeze of multiple meaning / layers of understanding.

Bye bro,
lk

Tay

Peace Damon,

In reviewing your understanding, here's how I see it. Let me know what you think...

If we had sexual intercourse with our spouses. <---bathe

2). If we had defecated in the bathroom. <---wash hands, face, and feet

If we are ill. <---wash hands, face, and feet
If we have been traveling. <---wash hands, face, and feet
If we just awoke. <---wash hands, face, and feet

I believe there is a 6th condition, seperate from "intercourse with our spouses" the literal has it as "or you touched and felt repeatedly the women". I presume this is in reference to contact with our spouses, but not actual intercourse. Most translators have it as "sexual contact". In this case, washing of the hands, face, and feet is prescribed, and not a bath as is the case for intercourse.

Peace,
Tay

Samia

Salaam all

In this case, washing of the hands, face, and feet is prescribed, and not a bath as is the case for intercourse.

In fact both verses 443 and 56 speak about tayammum, when you do not find water. So the rule stays to get ready for salat,and in case water is available, bathe after intercourse, wash face, hands/arms and feet.

Layth

Peace all,

The wording three Salat times was an error from a previous article and has been corrected.

The first thing I want to point out is your belief in the facing of the temple at Baka as the Qiblah. I would like to know how you made that connection as per Quran. I have read the verses that you have used in your article to support this view, but there aren't any verses that I know of which connect Baka to Qiblah. If there are such verses that I am not aware of, please let me kow of them. If there are no such verses, I would like to know how you came to this particular conclusion.

I based that finding on two points, the first is the example of Moses and his people on their escape from Egypt being told to face their homes & perform the Salat Please note that Moses and his people are running away from where they lived, hence this can only be a physical turning to face that direction in the Salat (the logic behind it being obvious, that Moses is being chased by Pharoah comming from the city they just left, hence to have licence to face the direction Pharoah would be comming from during Salat would take away the element of surprise).

The second point is the clear command to face the Qibla of the Restricted Temple. The verses on this matter speak of it being a clear physical action as observed when the people were inquiring what made them change their Qibla?. Gods system has never changes, hence those that argue that the Qibla is a system that the Muslims were following and then changed it does not tally with this foundation. However, when we link the Qibla with the Salat as we can in the case of Moses in 1087, then the entire issue becomes clear that it is a physical turning to face Gods restricted temple.

My second concern is salaatul jum'a.

You translated 629 as

O you who believe, when the oath of allegiance is called to at time of public gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew.

You left out the definate article AL which is written in the original Arabic text...

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha noodiya lilssalati min yawmi ALjumuAAati faisAAaw ila thikri Allahi watharoo albayAAa thalikum khayrun lakum in kuntum taAAlamoona

Therefor, the correct translation should be

O you who believe, when the oath of allegiance is called to at THE time of public gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew.

You are absolutely correct. The the was dropped accidentally when I was reviewing the verses. It has been corrected.

In Arabic, we all know that the definate article al speaks of something specific as opposed to something general. It is more on the lines of a one of a kind type scenario. As much work and effort will have to be put into it, we have to research and determine what this specific day is and I am certain that the answer is in the Quran.

You have come to the conclusion that this can be any day of public gathering which I think the Arabic of the quran makes that assessment incorrect.

I have not been able to see a special day in the sence that you are referring to. The main indicator on this verse is the word min which makes it all and any days where a gathering of people takes place. Had the wording been fi, then the case could be made that there is one special day that the Salat is to be held in.

I believe the 5th thing is spoken of in the beginning of this verse

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ITHA QUMTUM ila alssalati faighsiloo wujoohakum waaydiyakum ila almarafiqi waimsahoo biruoosikum waarjulakum ila alkaAAbayni wa-in kuntum junuban faittahharoo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin aw jaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumu alnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedan tayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum minhu ma yureedu Allahu liyajAAala AAalaykum min harajin walakin yureedu liyutahhirakum waliyutimma niAAmatahu AAalaykum laAAallakum tashkuroona

O you who believe, IF YOU RISE to perform the oath of allegiance, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.

I take this to mean ITHA/IF we rise from a state of sleep or napping and I base it on 5248-49

Waisbir lihukmi rabbika fa-innaka bi-aAAyunina wasabbih bihamdi rabbika HEENA TAQOOMU
Wamina allayli fasabbihhu wa-idbara alnnujoomi

Paying attention to the wording at the end of verse 48 and the beginning of verse 49 appears to clarify this.

You shall be patient for the judgement of your Lord, for you are in Our sights; and glorify the praise of your Lord WHEN YOU RISE.

Also from the night glorify Him and after the appearance of the stars.

The term wa-min (and from) in the beginning of verse 49 is used to contrast the term heena taqoomu at the end of verse 48.

Thus, it is clear to me that if I am not ill, have not been traveling, did not just get done making stool in the bathroom, I have not had sexual contact with my spouse and I did not just aqamu/rise from sleep, then I can go ahead and observe the salat without the need to wash my face, hands, elbows, head and feet.

I have read another view (similar to your own) which was that the wudu/ablution was to be done for each Salat as per the command in 56 (when you rise). On the subject of waking from sleep, the Scripture mainly uses tusbihoon - rather than qumt (see 3017).

My own view is that napping/sleep does not negate the wudu for the Salat. The evidence I point to is the 2nd part of verse 56 which tells us that allowance to make tayamum (cleaning with clean soil in the absence of water) is given in the cases of travel, illness, sexual contact, and stool. Had being asleep also required wudu, then it would have been given in the list of ietms that require wudu in the absence of water.

Samia

Salaam all

What is "The Restricted Temple"?
Did exist then?

In other words, what should we face when performing salaat?