Umrah
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Sugar,
when i read your post about your umrah experience i couldn't stop laughing... no offense intended - i'm (unfortunately) the kind who laughs of nearly everything, may be in order not to cry...
I just thought that all that would make a great film ! I would keep it comic...
Peace lk
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what I said in my previous post was a concise version of what happened there. elektro
That is f****** disgusting! I am so upset for you and I guarantee you that if I were there when that happened to you, I would have started the biggest fight they would have ever known for 1400 years. I am disgusted to the utmost level that such filth is allowed to happen to women, and this has filled me with absolute anger.
erm.... stitch the security guards at the womens section of the Mosque were women not men, i know it's peculiar to call women 'pervy' but you have no idea what they were like! i know i could put them in prison for what they do if they were here in England, they are very corrupt in so many ways! they all wore ninja outfits (AKA niqab) and it would not surprise me if there were men underneath there!
What infuriated me about the place was when I bought magazine from Makkah which talked about the barbaric custom of the community rejecting/blaming rape victims for being raped, instead of the magazine condemning what they do all they said was "the community should not be too harsh on the rape victims" '( >( My blood boiled when i read that!
Ironically there were more pervy men in Arabia then there are in England. If your on your own they wont take their eyes off you, some of them do rather odd things to get your attention, i just ignored them and pretended that i never saw them.
When i was in the sacred mosque in Madinah there was a 40 year old women who felt my butt for ages, the place was too crowded so i could not move, i screamed and there was a girl there who found it funny >(
I reckon in Arabia your more likely to get sexually harassed by women then men!
The people are so weird. When I was walking out of the sacred mosque in Madinah there was a girl there who put her hands on my aunties back and was about to push here down the stairs. I grabbed her hands and told her not to push. She asked me "why?" and she had a confused look on her face! The pushing and shoving is horrendous! I saw people strangling each other and pulling each others headscarfs of so that they can kiss the black stone! When our local imam went there were these men that picked him up and tried to throw him, my uncle was there and stopped them. They used to pick the kids up, put them up side them down like they were a piece of meat and slam their faces in the black stone!
Stitch make sure you ask people that have used the same travel agent as you about the service you would get, then you will know what to expect. Take a separate suit case with you just for food. The food there is VILE. Make sure you take a big packet of anti-depressants with you, your gonna need them.
There are no prices mentioned in most of the shops, if the shop keepers ask where you are from don't say England, mention a poor country of else they will try to rip you off. I had people charging me up to 5 times more for what i would have paid if i bought them in England! And the quality of the stuff was crap! make sure you take some batteries with you when you buy electrical goods and check them out if they work before you buy them, most of them do not work.
When I was in the hotel in Madinah we caught the workers twice snooping through our stuff when we were out. It's not a wise idea to leave a large some of money in the hotel. My granddad knew people who have put money in there pockets and bought these big belts to put there money in, who have had their stomachs cut with pocket knives so people could steal their money! IMO it's best to get a shirt that has pockets on your chest, that way its harder for the thieves to get your money. However if you ever faint the people will not help you, they will just search your pockets for your money and then run off.
The shirk is horrendous and so is the hypocrisy.
Half of Pakistan is there, especially people from Lahore and Karachi. There were hardly anyone from England there which sucked coz there was no one to talk to, i'm not a sociable person but even i felt very lonely there.
No matter what happens to you there there is not much you can do, the concept of human rights and manners is alien to the people I met there.
I hope you don't go through what I had to go through.
peace,
sugar -
what I said in my previous post was a concise version of what happened there. elektro
That is f****** disgusting! I am so upset for you and I guarantee you that if I were there when that happened to you, I would have started the biggest fight they would have ever known for 1400 years. I am disgusted to the utmost level that such filth is allowed to happen to women, and this has filled me with absolute anger.
erm.... stitch the security guards at the womens section of the Mosque were women not men,
Ooops, my bad, however it is no consolation. You have no idea how infuriated I have been today with the images in my head that such conduct is carred out there. Your experience has most definitely been a negative one, and I am upset for you, it seems that any integrity Islam or Muslims may have ever had has now truly vanished forever. (
Peace,
Stitch
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peace sugar
thank you for sharing your experience, God forbid i get near that dump. You know you see many times mentioned in the quran to walk the earth and observe the signs. There's your sign, that these people are clearly on the wrong path.
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I?m not surprised God does not guide people like that, they don?t deserve guidance. Lol this is a personal observation but I noticed the type of people that LOVE that place are complete hypocrites, the more love they have for that place the more hypocrisy they have in their hearts (i.e. my granddad).
PS I am no saint but I would never dream of doing the stuff people there were doing.
Peace,
sugar -
aslmualaykm
wow,u know i was expecting a story like that! i know people,no matter where are looking for oportunities to,not sin,because they dont see it as a sin,the whole country is corupt so they do the same,their rulers,allah knows their scholars,so it gets poluted the rest of the things...i heard arabia is corupt as hell,but some muslims because is "islamic" defend it. i would probally had got mad and run out of there,make hajj another time where theres not the season.
and well i wanted to say,you know where people die stampeded (ran over).isnt there where they go to do some shrik? anyone knows,but thats not why they die ,allah knows best,all i say,when that happened this year,which happened alot of time,alot.i heard the number! like 300! i was,where is the so called brotherhood!!!!!!if i ever go im avoiding that.
anyone knows the especific ritual mentioned above?
waslm -
As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.Can someone explain to me what Umrah specifically is, how does one perform one and where and when? Thank you.
Sugar, may Allah Most Merciful helps you and protects you from such people that you met. As i read the sory, i kept hoping that i was reading a sci-fi story or that you're gonna say in the edn that you had a dream like that, but if this really happened to you, if those people are really like that ... than i am so angry that i would not only scream if i witnessed that, what you went through, but i would most likely lose temper, Allah forbid and probably start a small war. Well, i think it's best than if someone goes with me to warn me not to break a few jews there!
Sugar, when yous aid that they were touching you inappropriately, you should report them in England, you're a woman, you have rights in England and as a British citizen you can report them and Saudi Arabia would end up apaologizing on national Tv to Britain.
I'm sorry that this happened to you, i hope things will get better. Insha'Allah.
May Allah Most Powerful bless us all.
May Allah Most Merciful gives you Eden, Sugar.As salamu alaykum.
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Sugar, when yous aid that they were touching you inappropriately, you should report them in England, you're a woman, you have rights in England and as a British citizen you can report them and Saudi Arabia would end up apaologizing on national Tv to Britain.
it won't make any difference IMO. Coz its an "Islamic country" nobody cares. The security guards can defend themselves and say that it's the place where most women hide the stuff they should not bring in to the mosque. I think that could be true but they never searched mine or anybody elses legs, if they searched everyone properly it would not bother me but they did not search everyone properly which made me feel really uncomfortable, it did not seem to me that they were doing their job for the right reason -, however i recall a scholar saying that the punishment for homosexuality in the sharia varies from 100 lashes, imprisonment, death and even burning them to death! The security guards were corrupt, they did not do their job properly i.e. mobile phones were not allowed in the mosque but loads of people still managed to smuggle them in, although they should stop women who come in with mobile phones a woman i was with said she saw a security guard let a woman who she knew had a mobile phone on her into the mosque.
Complaining about the place makes no difference, i told my uncle i was furious with the travel agent for conning us so badly. He said he was not gonna complain because most agents are corrupt, and if you complain about one they tell the other agents and then no agent would let my family go on hajj/umrah with them.
The Islam channel highlighted the problem so many agents recently have had thier licences taken off them for being so corrupt and not providing the service that they claimed they would.
As for Hajj and Umrah I believe that it was an Arab conspiracy against Islam, it's a very convenient way to make so much money. The Quran is grossly mistranslated and a careful study of the Quran would reveal that hajj and umrah is not decreed by god. Although i did originally intend to perform Umrah i mentioned earlier in the thread that i decided to take wakas's advice and just go for an archaeological visit.
I really recommend you read
http//www.free-minds.org/Arab_Conspiracy.htmldon't be put off by the racist comments, but personally i believe that they are justified .
Arabia just confirmed my belief that hajj/umrah would never be something that god would decree, tawaf and sai feel like fruitless pagan rituals IMO.
As for salat Wakas presents a good argument to why it aint a prayer.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3361.0But i can't remember where the actual article is, the above is just one of his threads about the subjects.
However if you still believe that Hajj/Umrah are still decreed by god and that salat is a ritual prayer i think www.quran-islam.org is a good site.
I did go round the black cube several times (mainly to see how people were behaving, to see what of sort of stuff they were uttering, whether they seemed happy/fed up/confused etc-basically i was just being nosy ;D) and i did walk round the place where they did sai, i expected to see 2 mountains there and what i saw was 2 man-made plastic "mountains", well lets just say they looked smaller then hills . I did occasionally perform physical salat devoted to god alone, whereas i don't believe it is shirk i know it is compromising with the idol worshippers > >. I tried to lift up the black cover of the cube to see what was in it but the guy that was near me was pretty annoyed when i just touched the damn thing, he was a worker there so i didn't wanna provoke him. I wanted to see Muhammad?s shrine in Madinah mosque but the damn workers put a book shelf in front of it so in the women's section you could see nothing, i wish i never attempted to see it, the women there were ruthless elektro.it was so creepy, lol it looked is though they were worshipping a book shelf rotfl
peace,
sugar -
peace
wakas didn't say salat is not a prayer, he proved that salat is NOT limited to prayer. Which is the correct understanding imo. Anyways these are the links to his articles
Quran on salat
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/quran_on_salat.htm
This next one is defining what IS salat
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htm
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wakas didn't say salat is not a prayer, he proved that salat is NOT limited to prayer.
sorry i did not mean to imply that wakas said it was not a prayer at all, i mentioned his articles because they presented a good argument, however it is me that believes that salat is not a prayer, i believe that salat means commitment, and 'wa-roka'is-sujad' is not "bow and prostrate" but is "submit in humility". This is what i believe at the moment, i've seen other arguments for salat and at the moment i believe that Aidid Safar presents the best one, however i may change my mind in the future, i've not done as much research as i should have done.
peace,
sugar -
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I hated the security guards in the sacred mosque in Madinah. They were so pervy, they did not search you properly all they did was feel your boobs then let you in, if they were in England I know I could have got them arrested for sexual harassment!
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He he he!!!!-)-)-) you brought back to me all the memories-) I went in Hadj not Umra so I know what you mean-). I am stil laughing...-)-) poor girl, thanks God the All-Mighty you came back ok. Peace. Myr.
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He he he!!!!-)-)-) you brought back to me all the memories-) I went in Hajj not Umra
I would die if I had to do hajj!! elektro
Peace,
sugar -
peace sugar
read 4102-03 ... its a real-time demonstration of salat.....clearly proves that salat is physical
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Peace Sugar n all,
I just read your post about your experiences, and you have my condolences. But I cant say it was unexpected. I would have been more surprised really if you came back and said that you had a wonderful and enlightening experience. I think you had a much worse time than I did, atleast when I went for umrah it wasn't that bad. But when I worked at the hajj terminal for a month during hajj period, that was pure hell. Think of this, some of the airport workers wore 'hospital masks' (which I should have done) to avoid getting sick from the multitude of sick people going back to their countries. If you were there for hajj (which I take it that this is NOT gonna happen after the previous experience) I would advise you to go and take a look at the Nigeria check in counter at the very far end of the hajj terminal. The airline staff (me at the time) were working behind a cage! Seriously, those guys are rough, fight each other at check-in, carry way excessive baggage and can kick your butt if you disagree with them... and I'm talking about the women!
Jeddah airport is HELL! yuck
No no no, Phoenix, Jeddah airport is HEAVEN compared to the Hajj Terminal in Jeddah. Take my word for it, if you've never been there... pray you never will.peace
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Peace Ashraf,
Can anybody share with me any resources/info pertaining to Hajj Vs Umrah from non-traditional point of view.
Why "vs."? I think that perhaps they are two complementing concepts. I think that the word "3mar" has the connotation of prosper/maintain/populate while the word "hagg" means feast. So those two concepts are complimenting one another.
Peace,
Ayman
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Why "vs."? I think that perhaps they are two complementing concepts. I think that the word "3mar" has the connotation of prosper/maintain/populate while the word "hagg" means feast. So those two concepts are complimenting one another.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I just wonder the exact meaning coz in FM it was translated as follows
"And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God..."
or
"And complete the Feast and maintainance for God..."
or
"And complete the debate and the visit for God..."Appreciate some enlightenment over the verses ;D
Peace.
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Peace Ashraf,
I just wonder the exact meaning coz in FM it was translated as follows
"And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God..."Pilgrimage and visit are kind of synonymous. So it really doesn't add any information.
"And complete the Feast and maintainance for God..."
or
"And complete the debate and the visit for God..."
Appreciate some enlightenment over the verses ;DYou can't invite all people with a debate. Very few people care to travel to debate with others.
On the other hand, you can invite all people with a "feast". Try it. Just put a sign outside your house saying "free food".
When we read the purpose of the "hajj" in 2228 we see that it is to witness benefits and to remember the name of the god on what he gave us from the livestock. We are told to eat from it and feed the poor. In fact, if we carefully read the whole passage from 2227-37, we can realize that 90% of it is about the livestock. So this is about eating and feeding others the livestock's meat. What do we call that? This is a feast.
Such annual feasts were common and the people of the book had them. In fact, the word "hagg" in the Old Testament means "feast"
From http//www.infobot.org/factpacks/old_test_meanings.fact
Haggai => feast
Haggiah => the Lord's feast
Haggith => rejoicingSo the concept of "hagg"/"feast" is a mundane common concept that was well known to the people of the book.
In light of the purpose of the feast, to witness benefits and eat and feed the poor, I would say that something that has to do with "prosper" is probably the more fitting concept for "umra".
"And complete the feast and the prospering for God..."
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ashraf,
On the other hand, you can invite all people with a "feast". Try it. Just put a sign outside your house saying "free food".
Such annual feasts were common and the people of the book had them. In fact, the word "hagg" in the Old Testament means "feast"
So the concept of "hagg"/"feast" is a mundane common concept that was well known to the people of the book.
In light of the purpose of the feast, to witness benefits and eat and feed the poor, I would say that something that has to do with "prosper" is probably the more fitting concept for "umra".
"And complete the feast and the prospering for God..."
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thanks for the enlightenment..Hajj and Umrah are similar to eat + hail + pr + group + ! and not about elektro + voodoo + > + ignore
Peace All.