How do you explain this with regard to an all-powerful god?
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Peace all. One thing i note which is quite amusing,and at the same time sad...That is when people quote texts,ideas,theories and 'common assumptions' in order to justify their ideas and theories...
Human wisdom is limited so what else do you expect people to do?
I can see justification in following any religion or believing in any philosophy/theory. I've even seen the most absurd, barbaric, irrational doctrines 'justified' using pretty words and comparing it to something worse. And then ending it with "Allah knows best".
IMO believing in a theory about there being a perfectly good reason for all the crap in the world (even if it is untrue) is better then dwelling on the problem. Dwelling on the problem leads to a big fat nothing brickwall. I wish i still believed in RK's why are we here theory, he was such an eloquent guy and that theory stopped me from moaning about everything crap in my life. I know my stress levels have dramatically risen since i've stopped believing in it.
I disagree with people that believe that God is a part of us, the Quran even warns people that say 'we are the children of god' if something as (IMO) trivial as that is considered a gross sin i don't know how god would perceive people claiming that god is a part of us. Considering nobody can ever harm him he is very sensitive to interpretations of him, I reckon he would see that as an insult. God is the creator and we are the creation. Nor do i confine god to a physical spot. My idea of god is kinda hard to explain.
I remember as a kid i had a laser pen it was so bright that the light went through my arm!! The light was not confined to a physical spot, nor was it a part of me, it managed to light up the whole room. I perceive god in a similar way. sun
peace,
sugar -
Peace. This is going to be the last post I respond to line by line, because you haven't responded to my arguments; all you have done is attack.
Peace openmind. I tell you what young man,
First of all, don't start the "young man" thing, please. Thanks.
you keep talking about respect and rules of deabte etc....Can you honestly tell me that you are respectful?
When you are debating with someone on a forum and you dodge their arguments, that is disrespectful. And yes, I can say as far as this forum goes, I am respectful, since I actually respond to every single argument the person I am debating with brings forth.
Also,you really think your criteria for 'debate' is one i agree with?
What are you talking you about? Are you saying that it's not disrespectful when you're debating with someone and you don't respond to their arguments? Because that's all I said.
You are like advising me on logic,god,life etc
Show me where I have done these things. All I said was to take a course in logic, and I was trying to help you there. Never did I "advise" you on god or life. Sorry.
when you probably have never had a long term relationship,driven a car,been to university,reared children of your own etc...
Well like always, you're full of assumptions. It's okay if you're not as intelligent as the average person so you have to use things like "having long-term relationships" or "driving cars" to better yourself. What does that have to do with anything at all? Later in your post, you talk about people being insecure. Does this not seem insecure?
excuse me if i dont take your musings on applied metaphysics too seriously,or get engaged in long academic childish debates with you,and others who use a similar methodology as you...
Long academic childish debates? What? ?? I really don't understand you man. ??? What are you here for at this forum? Are you here to convince people of something or to actually debate?
I would advise you to actually live a real full life,rather than just posting things you have read or heard from others without a deep/reality based understanding of what you are actually quoting...
How many assumptions can you pull off in one post? You're amazing. You don't know how I think and what I believe and what I read. Sorry. I know that because I'm 14, that automatically means I can't think for myself, read for myself, or that I'm brainwashed. You understand that if I hadn't said I'm 14, your post would be 50% shorter?
Its not just you who does this,but many members on this site...its an easy mistake to make...
Have you ever thought that you might be doing this? Ever? You know nothing about people on this site. Stop assuming. It's really easy, actually. You just stop..assuming.
You seem an intellectually very clever guy from your posts....I think your intellectual prowess would be much better served by applying it to real life experiences
You don't make sense. I know you try to be fancy and happy and fun with "real-life experiences" mumbo jumbo. Again, you know nothing about my life and what I do or anything. Stop assuming.
rather than just quoting theories and fancy jargon,or trying to refute things you have very little real experience of...
Enquirer, listen. I know you're so much older than me so that automatically means you know more and are much more intelligent, but you need to understand the idea of debating. Seriously, listen. When you make a claim that has already been disproven by science and math, and I simply show you that; I'm not trying to win. I'm simply showing you. Why do you view this forum as "I HAVE TO WIN THE DEBATES, I NEED TO SHOW THEM THEY'RE ALL WRONG." If I made a claim that had already been disproven, I'd be happy for someone to show me that! There's nothing wrong with it! I want to know! You really need to stop looking through this lens of win-lose.
Also, don't tell me "trying to refute things you have little real experience of." Please, you know that it's already been disproven and I was simply showing you. Don't belittle me to make yourself feel better by saying "I have little experience of it."
Books can only give you soo much...
lol
I think the measure of true applied intelligence is how much 'self insight' a person has....How much of what we say or believe relates to our conditioning,parents,brainwashing,media,peer pressure,cheerleading,our psychological needs,our weaknesses,our misunderstandings.....?if we know/analyse ourselves we can ascertain whether what we are saying is based on reality,partial reality or plain illusional thinking...
Yep, enquirer's profound words, etc. etc. yada yada.
We need to distinguish belief/theory from reality.....even subjective opinions can be much truer than so-called objective opinions....
What does this even mean?
many a time the so-called evidence presented in a debate is little more than the person trying to convince themselves of the truth of what they are saying....I feel some are brainwashing themselves by repeating the same old half truths,illusions and automated responses...
Sure, why bring evidence for a claim when you can just say it's true, so it's automatically true! Right? This seems to be the way you operate.
The mind is the potentially strongest organ in the body,but it only gets generally what it sows....Sow illogical thought and it will get conditioned into irrationality.....Sow reality and correct thinking/insight in it and it will be conditioned to rationality....
I know people like to play with words to make themselves feel better,or win debates,or justify their theories/behaviours....But ask yourself why do people get soo upset or go too such lengths to prove things that are almost unprovable...? Hint,maybe to convince themselves,or make them feel secure,or too evade the unpleasantness of certain realities or fears they have in life...Sound familiar?
Trying to understand ourselves and others from life-experiences is where its at my friend,
You need some more substance to your posts, my friend.
if a person is soo concerned with debating or winning deabtes i suggest they analyse their own behaviour and try to find if their motivation for winning is a good thing....
It seems to be you that's "soo" concerned about winning debates. I simply showed you that what you claimed has already been disproven, then you went off and started attacking me. Trust me, I really really really really don't care about winning or making myself feel secure, nor do I care what you believe. I have no hidden agenda. But it seems you do. You're very hypocritical
Wish you well
You too..?
young man,
Read first response. )
keep it real... handshake
ps; i do respect your obvious intelligence and your questioning of traditional islam,but your journey (and mine.) has only just begun....Take it easy... bravo
Thanks. I do respect your happy-fun no-substance posts. "Our journey has only just begun." Very mysterious and profound. You should take these thousands of cliches and put them to good use.
Again, This is the last post I'll respond to, until you respond to my original claim (highly unlikely). I'm tired of going back and forth.
Until then, peace.
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Someone;Im sorry but if god is all-powerful,and can ease suffering when he wants then i do blame him totally for playing games with humanity....Just saying 'free-will','free-will', is not enough for me.....My little children have free-will,but would i allow them to do something that would definately harm them if i had the power to stop them...? No sirey,i would stop my little children from harmful behaviour,and teach them why this behaviour is harmful....I hold my childrens hands when i cross the road as i know that they are not old enough to cross it properly themselves without harming themselves....In this way i show compassion,concern and love for my children.....Why is this god playing games with members of humanity who are mentally and spiritually immature by allowing them to kill each other,oppress each other etc,all as part of some great concept of free-will and a test....? >( > > I show more compassion than this god by actually teaching my kids how to cross a road,but also holding their hands before they have learnt how to cross safely.....God seems too busy with his image, his glory and his schizophrenic test,than to actually help out his people practically,when many of his people are blatantly not ready for the full use of free-will....
Peace enquirer,
You are free to think as you do. But I don't think that the god the all-powerful have to justify his decrees to any negligible form of his creation. Oh but wait, you say that there is no creator, that your existance is just a mere coincidence, it is just a mix of molecules that happen to be there, moving, making noise, reproducing, then dying.
But why do you have to live "this unjust life" in the first place? There is a way out of it if you wish.
Do your kids consider your behavior with them as just and fair?
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Peace all.
Someone; You say god doesnt need to justify his decrees to any negligible form of his creation....Well,so we should blindly follow his so-called words/decrees,which many cant even agree on what god is actually saying....Ideas like this are what can cause people to do horrendous harm to other people in the name of 'well god decrees what he wills,so we just follow'... Check out osamas' and other extremists statements on religion/quran....Pretty similar to the doctrine of follow whatever we think god has said,without resort to questioning whether what is commanded is good or bad or harmful to people,then justify the oppressive conduct by 'allah says so'...Are you guys going to blame every bad decree on god or yourselves....?
I dont feel this life is necessarily unjust,life can be wonderful,life is what you make of reality,and how you try to live happily/responsibly,not some metaphysical unverified test from a dictatorial,schizophrenic invisible force...
I try to be just with my children,and i fail on occasion,then im sure my wife and my kids will let me know...
You and may others really seem to find it uncomfortable to face the fact that many,many people who dont believe in one superpower god or such metaphysical theories,can live happy,moral,responsible lives....I advise you to face up to the fact that many atheists are extremely happy with life,have hope,happiness and joy,as well as hardships,and dont live their lives immorally or without responsibility.....Also im not too scared of the unverifed literal punishments supposedly coming my way if i dont follow or believe certain 'divine' rules.....If one all-powerful god exists and he is all-forgiving then he should forgive me anyway,as betrand russell said...Sugar; i sympathise with your point about 'theories; which make you feel better and cause you less stress,however these same theories can also cause you stress when we realise that some of the theories are not really grounded in reality,but wisful thinking like a happy ending in all bollywood and hollywood movies.... Life is not always like that....Ask god why he doesnt make better endings...?
Also i would say that actually pondering/dwelling/thinking about problems is a huge step in solving them,rather than making up or believing in an irrelevant theory,which can create even more problems and obscures the real issues at hand...Open-mind; You seem to be displaying a lack of insight,and childish 'smart ass' responses...
Sometimes the last person to know they are acting immaturely is the person himself...Im sure you will think of some childish retort,or another accusation of not answering questions etc....My job is not to spoon feed you justifications on every single issue,or to reply to every remark/question which you choose to throw into a thread,especially when i dont find it productive to the thread.....and yes,thats my SUBJECTIVE opinion...You seem to want want earth shatteringly conclusive OBJECTIVE proof backed by numerous scientists on issues such as me liking frosties for breakfast...? Because that seems to be the way with you and other members....and yet you and others dont even have objective proof for your BELIEF in god..... May the force be with you....Take care....Arnold; you know there are lies,damn lies and statistics...you also know that many times we read into info and interpret data/evidence so that it matches with our hopes,pre-conceived notions and our holy books....To be honest i havent counted all the science professors and asked them about their theism or atheism,or what they mean by theism/atheism,im just going by things i have read and my perceptions... you know very well that what some scientists call god is in no way comparable to an interventionist,forgiving,punishing god mentioned in the scriptures,they are more talking about the unity of conciousness/matter/nature,or the seeming consistency of physical laws in the universe,and even this can equate to belief,not being always fully verifed...
And also i would like to see anyone bring me a scientific proof for the existence of one god,not a metaphysical proof,but a verifiable conclusive proof like the fact that water boils when heated,or the force of gravity on earth.....I look forward to your response...? -
Peace,
Enq, you know by my posts i don't believe in the 'punishing God', as i don't see that in the Quran at all. As for the statistics being lies, this is the easy way out of course. I do talk with these professors in my country, and yes, just like me, their concept of the higher power goes beyond the normal concept.
And i'll give you your proof. What was the first mover? What was the things that made energy move? What made the laws of the universe and the multiverses? Like heat and boiling water are cause and effects, the same applies to the first mover....
-
Peace
I believe the proof of a supreme diety can be seen with the eyes, heard with the ears, felt by the skin. The beauty, order, harmony, and diversity of the universe suggests to me one vastly superior in wisdom and power than man himself.
It has been said 'The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God'.
The structure the texture of things in this world alone speaks of skilled craftsmanship beyond our means. If one can boast of the skill and ingenuity of mankind how can one leave to chance, or the like, to a world of uniformity and harmony?
His existence is clearly seen in his workmanship with us, humans, who possess a power of mind and body beyond our skill and/or comprehension. It is the wisdom of God which creates and stablises.
Joe
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Peace arnold and nabi. Arnold;Ok,but you know well i will ask,if everything needs a cause/mover,then what caused/moved god? If people believe in an uncaused,eternal,unmoved god,then why not believe in an uncaused,eternal,unmoved universe/multiverse....What caused the first mover? Where did god get the ideas for the laws of the universe with no prior experience or knowledge of how to create laws?
Also arnie,i think we should be clear again,that you and the professors are not talking about the traditional ides.concept of god in any way,and so that is why i said statistics can be misinterpreted.... handshakeNabi; ok,so the artistry,harmony, and order suggest one perfect creator....? So what about the disharmony,disorder and destruction also present in the universe, does this suggest an equally devilish god of disorder as well...? Maybe two gods,good and bad,or god with a split personality....? You have opened a pandoras box my friend... muscle handshake
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Peace arnold and nabi. Arnold;Ok,but you know well i will ask,if everything needs a cause/mover,then what caused/moved god? If people believe in an uncaused,eternal,unmoved god,then why not believe in an uncaused,eternal,unmoved universe/multiverse....What caused the first mover? Where did god get the ideas for the laws of the universe with no prior experience or knowledge of how to create laws?
Also arnie,i think we should be clear again,that you and the professors are not talking about the traditional ides.concept of god in any way,and so that is why i said statistics can be misinterpreted.... handshakePeace.
The best formulation of the Prime Mover argument is encapsulated in the KCA (Kalam Cosmological Argument) which I believe OpenMind touched upon.
Goes as follows
- Anything that begins to exist has a cause.
- The universe began to exist.
- Therefore, the universe had a cause.
There is a difference between things existing and things beginning to exist. If we say "anything that exists has a cause," then it would be appropriate to ask "well what caused God?" But that is not what this argument purports this argument states that anything that begins to exist has a cause. The difference is slight but it is there and it is key. One must keep in mind this is a probabilistic argument, meaning it makes more sense to believe in it, than not.
Back to the argument
Premise 1 has incontrovertible experiential evidence backing it up. There is no evidence of anything popping into existence uncaused. Lack of evidence, of course, does not in itself prove that things beginning to exist have a cause. Like I said, its a probabilistic argument. At the very least, it is extremely likely that things that begin to exist have a cause.
Premise 2 is backed by staggering amounts of scientific data. Current Big Bang cosmology shows that the universe indeed did have a beginning. This is also backed up (and even predicted) through metaphysics (the impossibility of an actual infinite) and mathematics (set theory, etc.).
Therefore, the conclusion seems pretty sound. At the very least, one must agree that the conclusion is probably more true than its opposite.
And suffice it to say, if one follows the argument to its logical conclusion, one cannot ask "well then what caused God?" for that would misunderstand the argument. The argument does not say that anything that exists has a cause, but rather anything that begins to exist has a cause. If it is shown that the universe had a beginning, it accordingly has a cause. It stands to reason that the cause is outside the universe itself. Whatever caused the universe (call it X) need not have a cause because it is not necessarily true that X had a beginning.
There are a lot more details to the KCA but thats a brief synopsis of it.
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Peace,
To add to caveman. We know for sure the universe is created with a first mover, this is step 1. To understand what the first mover is, is step 2. There can be no doubt about that the first mover is an intelligence as the universe has a perfect design which such an accurate balance, the number is to big for computers even. The fine tuning and design, are the second proof for the first mover to be intelligent.
Now to go to your step 2 question. What created God then? First the finite can only come from the infinite, as it must encompasses the finite. Then again we have the question who created inifity? The fun thing is, you don't have a beginning in infinity to have a starting point. You cannot say, oh infinity started here in this moment. To say there was always an infinite intelligence is the same as saying there never was an intelligence, because an infinite nothingness is the same as an infinite intelligence. But to have an infinite nothingness cannot explain the beginning of a finite creation. Where did the energy come from then?
Then you can say, the energy was always there. But who created the energy? And who made the first push so it started to move into what we see now?In the end, it always points to an infinite intelligence that started this creation, which itself is uncreated. The design and just even the presence of a finite universe shows an intelligent mover. That the mover itself is uncreated is nothing weird for me, it is the same as believing in eternal energy without conciousness. But for the later there is evidence that it just can't be.
So step 1 proves step 2 to be infinite.
As for understanding my concept of God and freewill. You have to understand that God knows everything, but how then do we have any freewill as it seems then that he already planned our very steps? This has to do with knowing cause and effect. If you push a ball, it will move. The concept of choosing has to do with a guess of what that choice=cause creates as an effect. God knows all the causes and effects that are taking place, so He knows which effects will influence your effect. So not knowing the future has to do that we cannot know all the causes and effects that are taking place which will cause our cause and effects. Choices are based on knowledge, so when you have this kind of knowledge, in this situation you will choose this. God knows our knowledge, and will by thus know what we will choose in a certain situation. So God knows every effect of every cause, the ones taking place right now, and the ones that will take place in the future, as a cuase now will have a certain effect, which then will create a new cause and so on and so on.
So when He first 'moved' the creation, from that very little 'push' on He knew exactly what was going to happen as He knew exactly which causes will end up in certain effects and which will create new causes and so on.
So where is our freewill left in all this infinite cause and effect? Because we don't know what effect our causes create, and by not knowing all the causes and effects that take place in this creation, you try to make the best choice based on your knowledge.Does knowing that God knows, take away your feeling of freewill? Does His infinite knowledge take away your feeling of freewill? Not at all. So now we come to the next point. So God knew we were gonna cause wars and let people starve. How then could He be mercifull if He knew all this pain was gonna happen?
We know already from the above that there was a first mover, and that He knew exactly what was going to happen from the very first little push that causes the universe to create. So He knew that that pain would happen, so it was inside the plan, as He pushed in such a way, that only this could have happened. So again why? Why would that be in the plan?
This can only mean that the next steps, the next effects will be so much better, the pain will be forgotten. Because of course people will must have a good answer why it happened. He is God and He wants it so is not enough. He made us intelligent with a reason, so He wanted us to ask questions.
So there must be a very good reason we don't understand yet for that pain, and also a pretty damn good compensation for all that pain. We have found inside the laws of nature that our bodies will be created again, so now outside of the holy books we have proof that the resurrection is true. But these laws also show that it will happen again after that, and again. But it also shows that our conciousness will not loose it's knowledge from the previous stage. This is really important, because it means we will not have to go through certain phases again. We will not need to re-invent the wheel again and again in every new resurrection. For a short intro on this
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0
And the concepts of Djenna and Gehenna and YaumweDeen are highly misunderstood. These are lightly explained here
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6171.msg95085#msg95085
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6171.msg95257#msg95257
In my explaination of Gehenna and Djenna, i show 11106-109, which tell us that Gehenna will stop eventually, and there will be no more people that are in that state of mind and cause harm to themselves and their surroundings. So this means that in stage of our evolution we will stop doing harm to each other. Everybody, will be in a higher state of conciousness that it knows enough and will not harm themselves or others anymore. And then we will create true Utopia. In which stage it will be i don't know, that is for to know and for us to find out.
So we end up again to the question why war and pain? If i look at the explanation above, it must have something to do with our development. But what can pain show us? I do know that you need to experience or see certain things to know if you want it or not. So it is part of our freewill to learn what we want and don't want. But why to let evil be here? To know what extreme goodness is, the extreme opposite must be known. To have a + we need to have a -. But in our nature, it is made so that we want to choose the +, only people must learn what + is and what not. The Nazis thought they were choosing +, we know they chose they opposite. So we are learning what the + are and what are the real - in this creation, and to know that we must test everything out. The beauty of it all is, that we will remember the real +'s and -'s of our previous stage, so we don't have to find out those anymore, but there are still a lot of +'s and -'s left.
Eventually we will know the -'s and we will avoid those and only choose +'s, and from then on we will only move up. We are still evolving, in mind and in body. And every step, be it + or -, was part for that evolution. Because of the extreme evils, i know my true nature only want the extreme goods.
In this phase, we are the ones who are letting people starve and we are the ones allowing wars so the west can have their surplus lifestyle. We are choosing a - now, which we think is a +. So we are fooling ourselves again. We are just as dumb as the Nazis. So we have to find the real +'s in life. That is the true purpose of this creation.
And so we come to the end of my thoughts. When i think it all over, it is all amazing. Like J.R.R. Tolkien said
"Life is a song, it has sad parts and happy parts, but whatever the song plays, it is always beautifull, whichever part it plays it is always beautifull."
And i agree with him as i understand the purpose of it all. At least i try my best, because God always has some funny tricks up His sleeves.
But the real question that is left, is why did He moved the universe into creation? Why did He create us? There was no need for Him to do this. He is out of need, doesn't need worship or service, or recognition. He knows what He is. So why, why give us the gift of life and conciousness?
Why God?Bishmillahir Rahmanir Rahim
With the Glorious name of Allah, the source of instant and Eternal Beneficence and Mercy Who embraces the entire universe in His fold, nourishing and taking care of all things, for what they are meant to be, just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo without any returns.Peace enquirer......
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Peace nabi,arnie and cavey. nabi;Would you suggest nuclear waste,child-abuse,oppression,murder,poverty,famine and mans disobedience towards gods so-called laws/decrees are harmony....?
arnie and cavey; i will read your posts in detail later,as i will be away from the pc till about the middle of next week.
handshake -
Sugar; i sympathise with your point about 'theories; which make you feel better and cause you less stress,however these same theories can also cause you stress when we realise that some of the theories are not really grounded in reality,but wisful thinking like a happy ending in all bollywood and hollywood movies.... Life is not always like that....Ask god why he doesnt make better endings...?
Enq believe me when I tell you that ignorance really is BLISS!! ignore
Also i would say that actually pondering/dwelling/thinking about problems is a huge step in solving them,rather than making up or believing in an irrelevant theory,which can create even more problems and obscures the real issues at hand...
lol and exactly how are we gonna sort all the stuff you mentioned throughout the thread?
each and every single one of them are not as straight forward as they seem.
So Enq what do you have in mind?
It just seems to me that you want to turn everybody against God, coz your dead bitter about his plan for humanity you want everybody to be else like that too....
peace
peace,
sugar -
peace enquirer,
what you are calling disharmony in the universe is not the act of God, but the result of the free will given to us HUMANS.
We can CHOOSE to live in harmony with nature, but sometimes we don't. nature by itself is in harmony, it is our free will , and the bad choices we make because of it, that causes the "disharmony." -
Peace nabi,phoenix,elena,arnold,cavey and sugar.
Nabi; you seem to have a phobia regarding me my friend...I addressed what i felt were examples of disharmouny.....now be a man,and stop throwing the childish accusation that i havent answered your question straightly....You have studied psychology havent you....? Maybe you cannot take someone questioning the foundations of your shaky beliefs,and so are resorting to the same tired old accusations,red herrings and diversions ..........Break the habit/conditioning my friend...........And while your at it why dont YOU answer my question on harmouny and disharmouny,if you cant,then go and think about it....?
phoenix;I can respect your understanding phoenix,but how can others use this as evidence of an intelligent creator by saying all creation is in harmouny then? Surely man is not in harmouny with this logic,thus making the creator illogical and/or disharmonious.....I
thought god wasnt the authout of confusion...? (bible... .)Elena; Im glad someone is paying attention.....Your post is exactly what i am suggesting... bravo
sugar; maybe some theories can help us in the short term,but ignorance on a lot of occasions is not bliss,reality will bite us in the ass if we stay ignorant.....One example is many teenagers seem to ignore that if they have sex without contraception that they will very likely get pregnant.....Ask them when they have an unplanned baby if this is bliss,or this theory/ignorance worked.....?
'Reality is that which when you dont believe in it,it still exists'...
one of the ways we can tackle these seemingly tough/difficult questions is by deep pondering on reality after verifying issues in our own life/real experiences.... Also many issues are down to our own upbringing and our own brainwashing...One of the difficulties is that we have much too much FEAR of the unknown.....I feel we ought to channel our energy into trying to learn at a reasonable/realistic pace about our world and our own-selves rather than expecting certainty and full knowledge of the universe just by reading the quran or even from thinking...we have to realise our own theoretical limits in thinking,and maybe let go of our obssessions with acheiving certainty,and our obsession with black and white final,one size fits all solutions...
As for me being bitter against god.....You might be right.....Thats if she exists....
However i dont necessarily want everyone to think the same as me,because there is always the possibility i could be wrong,and others may have a more informed/real understanding of these matters than me...
By the way,what is the plan god has for humanity.....?arnold; i found you post interesting as normal,however sometimes i feel that if you were a christian you would find 'logic' to fit the bible and the trinity bro....I just feel you are eloquent and logical,but i feel its a little misplaced....But i can live with it.... handshake
As for the themes in you post,you seem to have a lot of faith in gods plan for humanity, as you see it.....It would be great if its true.....I can only verify this plan in the next life or when i die,so i cant say i currently agree with this plan,as i see human suffering that goes on for decades and decades with little respite,i see children born into abuse,disease,disability etc,and then i hear people say its part of gods plan for humanity.....Its of little real practical consolation to the poor,hungry,oppressed and suffering.....I hope you are not selling these oppressed folks theories that may be cruelly dashed as the passage of time goes by...
As for the first mover and an eternal god....Well if we are part of the god,then we are eternal too? Can you scientifically prove that there was a time where a 'thing' did not exist...? You can show that we did not perceive it as being there/existing,but how can you show it didnt exist at all,in any form....?
The first mover makes little sense,as it presumes a 'thing' (god.) that moves with no cause and effect and has no prior/first mover itself,this is against the laws of cause and effect itself....It seems to me this theory only works if you refute the actual premise it is based on,by a god that is supposedly outside of his own laws/logic.....?
I dont see the validity of eternal concious energy being any less a theory than an eternal,conscious/intelligent god...At least i can verify the fact that energy cannot be totally destroyed,or be created from nothing,and so is eternal...
The stuff you said about free-will and god having prior knowledge of everything is irreconcilable to me,and has never been shown on this forum or anywhere else to make sense to me...We either are free and god doesnt know,or god has pre-ordained/knows everything and we are not free....how can it be both....? Otherwise how can god judge us if he knows/pre-ordains our deeds....?cavey; i like this theory because it is soo based on false assumptions .....example; 'for something to begin to exist it must have a cause'.....Who said that anything begins to exist....?... You mean you PERCEIVE that this thing has come into existence......? Can you verify that a baby was literally absolutely nothing before sperm and egg met,or an embryo was formed....? When do you draw the assumption/line that a 'thing' comes into existence.....? What came first the chicken or the egg...? What was the egg before it was an egg...? Was it nothing at all? Can you show me ONE verifed scientific example of creation from nothing,or something spontaneously appearing with no cause.....? Many times the cause has been discovered after scientific research and thus explains peoples illusions of things appearing from nothing.....is there any such reality as NOTHING.....?
If metaphysics claims the impossibility of an actual infinite (as you claimed.) then thats the so-called infinite god gone down the chute....
What wrong with an eternal universe once the false premise of something 'appearing' in existence having to need a first mover or cause......?
This whole theory is as you said only a probabilistic theory,or in my words a gamble.....in fact i would say this kind of weak pseudo intellectual theory is an intellectual trick,which can be fallen for by the unwary,and be used to trick the intellectually easily lead into theoretical ridlles,illusion and fallacies.....I now realise more fully the highly dubious nature of the so-called logic put forward to defend these views on god and religion....
If everthing is eternal and always existed in some form or another (whether perecieved by us or not........eg,could the previous peoples perceive bacteria.....? Or did disease spread by bacteria suddenly existing from nothing then manifesting physically as disease,ie did bateria only exist when scientists first perceived/discovered it.......?) then this makes more sense than everything being finite except one thing. (god.) Time will tell which of us is right..... handshake -
Peace,
Enq, because you don't believe, again you take the responsibility like me, that all the suffering is all our fault right? Isn't this exactly what i'm saying? As for the first mover, you have to understand that only a thing bounded to time can move. Something eternal, as by thus infinite cannot be affected by time, so energy cannot be eternal, this has been adressed by the greatest minds on earth. Energy moves, and by thus, it is not infinite. It lies in infinity itself. So infinity lays outside the term cause and effect. To believe energy is eternal goes against all laws of nature. As for being part of God, while not being eternal ourselves, it is God who allows us to 'borrow' His energy and He can take it away when he wants to, so the idea that we have to be eternal to then is wrong.
And how could i be ever a christian as my logic cannot accept such onlogic. I base it all on scienitific criteria, that is why i believe in the Quran. And the thing about freewill while God knows everything, i suspected you wouldn't grasp it, few will.....
You get your conclusions based on emotions, not totaly on evidence. But it is God's school, not mine, He teaches everyone on the tempo He decided.
Peace bro..
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Peace arnie. yes,im glad we both conclude adult man is somewhat responsible for his own faults....The energy and eternal thing we will agree to disagree on that bro...
My evidence is from my own experiences bro,not just emotions....
Finally,free-will,does anybody except a select few understand it? And if god is the teacher,then do you think he is doing a god job,or do we blame man totally...? Surely the 'teacher' has some input/responsibility...? If god was a sixth form lecturer he would have been sacked by now for lack of results...
Ps;we may have to wait for more verification to clarify some of these issues....maybe even upon the next life...... -
Peace,
He is a god teacher and a good teacher ....and if He really sucks like you say, how then is it that you like the things you have learned in life? You are happy with understanding reality don't you? Otherwise you wouldn't have professed them on this forum.....