Salaat's success in this world.
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peace
God doesn't need or want anything from us
are you assuming that salat is FOR God?
It is for us.
don't know about your definition of salat, but you are correct that we shouldn't "worship" God. Or maybe the way people worship God is wrong.
So whatever you dont do is wrong? You are perfect? You are never wrong?
Who is 'we'? Who are you speaking for? Are you everybody's advocate?
My point Just because you dont feel a certain way doesn't mean its right/wrong. The same applies for me. It's our unique interpretations. You shouldn't say 'well this is not what i do, so you are wrong' or 'this is not what i believe so you are wrong' Only God knows who is right and wrong, so let him be the judge.
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Peace All
How do you NOT worship God and consider yourself a Submitter to God??
What is your definition of worship? Worshipping God comes in various forms. According to the Holy Quran, we are told to remember God's attributes, to pray to God asking for forgiveness, to pray to God for serenity, happiness, peace, to not be of the ignorant, to not be of those who are arrogant, etc etc. To worship God means to obey His commandments to help the poor, the oppressed, the weak. To worship God means to actively exert energy and effort into positive ways to benefit others, ourselves, to increase our knowledge in the Holy Book. To worship God means to meditate and establish a connection with Our Supreme Being, The Initiator, at prescribed times during the day and night. These are all ways of worshipping God.
I can't understand your position that to worship God is idolatry. Let us not be of those who do not 'prostrate' upon God's Command. May God protect us all from the road to Arrogance. Amen.
Peace All
P.S. I forgot to add the most important one to Thank God and be grateful for all the Blessings and Mercy He showers upon us with every breath we take ... elhamdulillah D
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peace simple,
i don't know about your definition of salat, but you are correct that we shouldn't "worship" God. Or maybe the way people worship God is wrong.
What we should do is follow the truth so that we reach a state of happiness.
God doesn't need or want anything from us. Too many people have the wrong idea about God. As Wakas said in the other thread, everything boils down to what we know, that's why we should control what we learn and what influences us (that's what salat's about I think).I agree pheonix .
but soul said
to pray to God asking for forgiveness
so when you ask for forgiveness you speak with God, and when someone mumbles are they speaking to him aswell, or when a cat meos, or a dog barks are they all talking with Him???
Whether you ask His forgiveness or you don't , won't He forgive someone if that person is deserving or will He forgive only when you ask - and i thought He knows our inner most thoughts , and thought He was the just of the just.
It "to your way sounds as though He needs sounds to hear and wouldn't forgive you unless you Beg"
Or Don't you mean what you are preaching?
Thanks.
Gods Blessings.
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peace
I don't think it's the words that count. It's the mindset. If our intentions are on the right path, then other things matter little. Our goal is to follow the truth. Some people ignore or reject the truth.
If our intention is to find the truth and follow it, whether we are able to do it or not doesn't make us rejectors.
God can "see" our intentions, and that's what makes God so "merciful." -
Peace All
In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you say things in a loud voice or in a low voice or in your mind when you are praying to God. So the whole issue of mumbling really doesn't matter. God is All-Aware of what we hide in our breasts... You and Phoenix are also absolutely right in that God knows all and He has the Supreme Power in the ultimate decision of whether He will forgive or not, as we see in this aya
Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it; then He will forgive whom He pleases and chastise whom He pleases, and Allah has power over all things.
Who are those whom he pleases? The pre-requisite for forgiveness is an acknowledgement of your sin. The way to acknowledge it is to own up to it and ask the Most Merciful for His Forgiveness.
As for your idea that actions matter more, you are partially on the right track. In order for God to forgive you are to repent. This comes in 2 steps You are to first pray to Him and ask for His Forgiveness, as we can see in the following aya
4060 And your Lord says "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer) but those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell, in humiliation!"
The act of du'a (prayer) is recommended in the quran. In fact we see many examples of prophets who prayed for forgiveness, patience, strength in faith, etc etc. I'll mention a couple just for a visual example
The apostle believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His apostles; We make no difference between any of His apostles; and they say We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.
Those who say Our Lord! surely we believe, therefore forgive us our faults and save us from the chastisement of the fire.
The patient, and the truthful, and the obedient, and those who spend (benevolently) and those who ask forgiveness in the morning times.
And those who when they commit an indecency or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults-- and who forgives the faults but Allah, and (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done. (As for) these-- their reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them, and excellent is the reward of the laborers. - Here we see the two steps outlined neatly.
And their saying was no other than that they said Our Lord! forgive us our faults and our extravagance in our affair and make firm our feet and help us against the unbelieving people.
There are literally hundreds of verses that deal with asking for forgiveness specifically, but for the sake of brevity, I'll leave it at these.
However after asking forgiveness it must be followed by good deeds and the absence of doing that bad deed again. This is further explained here
And remember We said "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good." - Here the Children of Israel are commanded to carry themselves in the behavior fitting of God's Way, with good deeds to their fellow man, THEN God will forgive their faults.
And repentance is not for those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says Surely now I repent; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are they for whom We have prepared a painful chastisement. - Here we see what happens if we ONLY ask for forgiveness without mending our ways. This is great evidence that the two actions MUST go together, asking for forgiveness AND revising our actions in the future.
And establish salat in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful.
If repentence is done properly using the two step method outlined in the Holy Quran we are given great news. Here is, in my opinion, the most profound aya regarding this issue
Except him who repents AND believes AND does a good deed; so these are they of whom Allah changes the evil deeds to good ones; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Peace All
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Salaams Br,
Nice post , but just to clarify something ? thanks.
Asking for forgiveness is part and parcel of mending our ways-realising our mistakes and correcting them is seeking His forgiveness I think.
As you have pointed out just asking/begging doesn?t mean much ? but realising and changing our behaviours is asking for forgiveness.
Some posts about by someone try them.
Astagfarhttp//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=2578.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1977.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3229.0
Gods Blessings on you.
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Peace be upon you,
If we look at salaat as the process of programming the nafs, then it is very successful all over the world, but the problem is that most people are BEING PROGRAMMED UNAWARE because they do not guard thier salaat. So big buisness advertisers use commercials and such to program the nafs of the population. Corrupt goverments as well. and on and on and on.
Woe to those who salaat but are unaware of thier salaat.
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Peace be upon you,
If we look at salaat as the process of programming the nafs, then it is very successful all over the world, but the problem is that most people are BEING PROGRAMMED UNAWARE because they do not guard thier salaat. So big buisness advertisers use commercials and such to program the nafs of the population. Corrupt goverments as well. and on and on and on.
Woe to those who salaat but are unaware of thier salaat.
Salaams Br idol,
Most people do not guard thier salaat/comittments/WHAT THEY THEMSELVES ADVICE.salaat as the process of programming the nafs
i thinks this link isn't established from the quran ,is it?if so where?Thank you.commercials
as salaat cannot be accepted as such as they are not for the benefit of the public -in truth,but is to fill the pockets of the companies - mostly ,i think.
Gods Blessings.
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Peace Simple
Asking for forgiveness is part and parcel of mending our ways-realising our mistakes and correcting them is seeking His forgiveness I think.
It's nice to see we agree that they both go together
As you have pointed out just asking/begging doesn?t mean much ? but realising and changing our behaviours is asking for forgiveness.
You are absolutely correct, just asking is not enough, as we see in 418. I disagree with you that asking is equivalent to the act of doing good deeds. I believe God didn't have a shortage of words. He clearly stated the two (asking for forgiveness and doing a good deed) on the issue of repentence so they really are two seperate things. To gain forgiveness you really do have to call upon your Lord (du'a) as well as mend your ways/do good deeds.
Peace IdolFree1,
I believe salat as a function has the effect of programming the nafs and strengthening it. However, I don't know if advertisers have the power to program anfosina. I think we are the ultimate corrupters of our own nafs when we are heedless of God's Commandments to us, which are for our own good. Advertisers may certainly sway us to fall off the Right Path, but I wouldn't call it programming. I would say, the absence of establishing the contact method leaves the nafs in a state of weakness. While establishing a regular contact with The One strengthens the nafs so that outside influences are less influential, and also so that one could withstand the presence of God in one's life.
917 And by the soul and Him Who made it perfect,
918 Then showed it what is evil for it and what is good for it.
919 Successful is one who purifies it.
9110 Failing is one who corrupts it.Peace All
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Salaams soul,
You are absolutely correct, just asking is not enough, as we see in 418. I disagree with you that asking is equivalent to the act of doing good deeds. I believe God didn't have a shortage of words. He clearly stated the two (asking for forgiveness and doing a good deed) on the issue of repentence so they really are two seperate things. To gain forgiveness you really do have to call upon your Lord (du'a) as well as mend your ways/do good deeds.
Do we need to ask the lord , doesn't he know it before we ask Him?I think everybody will agree that He knows before we even ask Him - so shouldn't we consider asking Him something verbally as being already done before we ask Him?
can you say to me , "Br. Salaams (and again) Br. Salaams" ??
isn't one enough?
Of course you do need to say things verbally to beings as they don't know what you feel/think/want e.t.c
God be with you.
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Peace be upon you Simple,
Salaams Br idol,
Most people do not guard thier salaat/comittments/WHAT THEY THEMSELVES ADVICE.True, I am not saying commercials ARE salaat, I am saying that they salaat is programming and that commercials are one of the many methods of programming the NAFS. Also, take note of the verse that says that our salaat for others is a comfort to them. So it is not just something personal but it has long reaching effects, which is why salaat must be GUARDED.
salaat as the process of programming the nafs
i thinks this link isn't established from the quran ,is it?if so where?Thank you.By way of deduction. My reasoning is as follows- In the following verses we are given the Key to success.
(917-10) And by a self and who straightened it, So He inspired (to) it its debauchery/corruption, and its consciousness/righteousness, Who purified it had succeeded/won, And who buried it/plotted against it (corrupted it) had failed/despaired.
So our job in life is to MANAGE our spirit that was given to us as our vehicle in this world. This involves our thoughts, imagination, and our physical health. HOW do we go about this? It is the process of "salaat". The process of programming our nafs, or to use the metaphor, planting seeds in our garden. The nafs is the soil which will bring forth weeds if we dont tend to it, or it might grow plants from seeds put thier by someone else (commercials/preachers/family tradition, etc).
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Peace be upon you S2S,
First, I wish I would have seen this post before so I could have copied and pasted the verses directly from your post as I just referenced them )
I believe salat as a function has the effect of programming the nafs and strengthening it.
I agree.
However, I don't know if advertisers have the power to program anfosina.
If you understand the nafs/spirit as the part of beinig that CARRIES THINGS OUT, then it can be clearly seen. the Nafs is the ENERGY part of our being. It is the SUBCONSCIOUS. Think about this, as you are reading this, your subconcious is probably digesting food, beating your heart, etc. It is carrying out the jobs you need to do. Why is it that a person who has trouble not eating junk food can see a commercial about chocolate cake and then go get a chocolate cake, all the while tellling themselves, "I know I shouldnt eat this". Its because while the Conscious part of them says they shouldnt, the ENERGY PART of being, the nafs, has not been properly programmed to carrry out NOT EATING the chocolate cake. Just like one who says they want to stop smoking but keeps on smoking. Why? because they have not properly programmed the subconscious/nafs. All we do are plant the seeds and guard from unwanted seeds and weeds, thats all consciousness does, the SOIL has thh job of carrying out what we "plant/will".
You can plant seeds any time you want, but the subconcious is a TIMED BOOK. It wil only accept the SEED (what you will) at certain times, just like the male and female with pregnancy.
The observable fact is that commercials and television PROGRAMS influence behavior, that why commercials during highly viewed shows such as the superbowl cost in excess of 2 million dollars for 30 seconds of advertising. If it did not INFLUENCE (program), then they would not spend so much money.
I think we are the ultimate corrupters of our own nafs when we are heedless of God's Commandments to us, which are for our own good.
We are the gardeners, we are ultimately responsible YES. That is why we are told to GUARD the salaat. Just like we guard a garden from crows and weeds and other farmers planting thier seeds in our gardens.
Advertisers may certainly sway us to fall off the Right Path, but I wouldn't call it programming.
What would you call it? ) If you are a computer programmer, how do you "sway" a program to do something else?
If your dog is going to the bathroom on the carpet, how do you "sway" it to go outside? Just sit back and reflect on this for a moment and see if you come to the same conclusion as I did.I would say, the absence of establishing the contact method leaves the nafs in a state of weakness.
Exactly, if you are not programming your nafs/spirit, someone else IS. And that is why those who know want us all to stay asleep. That is why they want us to work all day, go home and get our Beer and fried foods and watch a sitcom or sports, pass out and repeat the cycle of those spiritually dead, unaware of the NAFS and how it works.
I go back to the garden, yes, if you dont regularly tend to your garden, it will leave it in a weakened state, but not only that, WEEDS will grow, and thats the danger. Its not as simple as it just being in a weakened state, there are ENEMIES after our garden, they want to use that ENERGY SYSTEM for thier own purposes, to make you a SLAVE.
While establishing a regular contact with The One strengthens the nafs so that outside influences are less influential, and also so that one could withstand the presence of God in one's life.
I respectfully disagree with what you are implying. It has the sound of a "savior" philosophy. Whereas I understand the God to be showing us the means of purification, the success spoken of in the below verses you provided.
917 And by the soul and Him Who made it perfect,
918 Then showed it what is evil for it and what is good for it.
919 Successful is one who purifies it.
9110 Failing is one who corrupts it.Salaat and Zakaat(purification) are put together many times, salaat is the MEANS of purification of the nafs/Spirit, which we use the similitude of the garden.
Please give me your feedback after reflecting on this.
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Peace all,
some thoughts.
As long as we are talking about the function of slaat which is an excellent issue to discuss one other aspect is double-worth not to forget
During the salaat if the mind-set is that of ( I am doing this to get something=this is good somehow ), then one can not lower the self. because SELF is there to gain somethig!!
During salaat one let go of SELF. It appears as a paradox. You want guidance to the straight path for yourself! While the straight path leads to loosing SELF. You are admiring THE ONE which has no need of it!
It is a session of RECOGNITION and ADMIRATION of THE ALMIGHTY and being willing to let go of yourself. It is not a session of logic! If one needs to contemplate mentally, can be done separately.
A state of like being a child! sometimes in life of many people tragedies happen that one sits and cries like a child. In a state of simpleness and openness All the masks fall down. I don,t mean that it should be sad, it can be so happy as
the smile of a child! but it is sincere! It is real! It is not a make belief! It is not performing duty! It is a state of simply being with two of you. The BEST LISTENER and you.when you are in the class learning about bungee jumping, there are just images and examples! It is a necessary step that one needs to learn beforehand! but keeping reading about bungee jumping will not bring the experience of the JUMP.
for now peace
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Peace Bro IdolFree1
After reading your analysis through, I must say it makes alot of sense. What convinced me was your equating the nafs to the subconscious. This indeed proves that others can corrupt the nafs and that we should guard against those who feed our subconscious with subliminal messages.
While I do agree with you, as I was researching, I came across this aya
Those who keep aloof from the great sins and the indecencies but the passing idea; surely your Lord is liberal in forgiving. He knows you best when He brings you forth from the earth and when you are embryos in the wombs of your mothers; therefore do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil).
I'm interested to know what your analysis would be of this aya. Does this mean no nafs (subconscious) can ever be completely purified no matter how strongly we guard against it? Or did I read too much into it?
I appreciate your thoughts
Peace Bro Alpha97,
I appreciate your thoughts as well. This seems to be in line with Islamic philosophy. The name of the specific philosopher escapes me now, but your theories are in parallel with the genius philosophers Masha-Allah
Excellent food for thought, thank you both!
Peace All
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Peace be upon you S2S,
After reading your analysis through, I must say it makes alot of sense. What convinced me was your equating the nafs to the subconscious. This indeed proves that others can corrupt the nafs and that we should guard against those who feed our subconscious with subliminal messages.
Yes, the nafs is the subconcious. The confusion of many people are all these words "spirit, soul, mind, subconcious" all being used haphazardly, and it confuses our thinking. We have to bring these concepts home to real life everyday experience.
While I do agree with you, as I was researching, I came across this aya
Those who keep aloof from the great sins and the indecencies but the passing idea; surely your Lord is liberal in forgiving. He knows you best when He brings you forth from the earth and when you are embryos in the wombs of your mothers; therefore do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil).
I'm interested to know what your analysis would be of this aya. Does this mean no nafs (subconscious) can ever be completely purified no matter how strongly we guard against it? Or did I read too much into it?
I appreciate your thoughts
I understand this verse to imply that none of us should act as if we are perfect, because none is perfect. I understand it to say that we must ALWAYS be on guard in regards to our nafs/subconcious. Just as a gardner/farmer must always tend the garden/farm.
So I agree with your assessment that no nafs can be 100% purified, or if so, not for an extended time because "weeds" will always try to come back, or to use the computer analogy, hackers will always try to send you a virus. When we think we are perfect, that SUBCONCIOUSLY stops us from trying to continue purifying ourselves. Just like when the people say in this reading(quran), "Our hearts our wrapped", meaning they ae stuck in thier ways and SUBCONCIOUSLY stop looking for the better understanding.