Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
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Salaam enquirer
You have said this
?I would like to know the ages and real-life experiences that these characters have, before i respect their off the cuff,conditioned,self aggrandising,insecure and defensive posturing....?
and
?I would like to see mr khidr and miss zainab step into the real world,and try to go to their local hood and see how far this hidding behind the computer mentality would take them when face to face with reality....?
First of all enquirer, who do you think you are to request Zainab and my age and our experience? You are no authority that we respect and we are definitely not foolish enough to put our personal life and business out in the matrix (internet). We are not here to win any brownie points or be approved by no body and that includes you enquire. All you need to know is that you are dealing with two highly intelligent Muslims who declare LA ILAHA ILLA ALLAH and fear/tremble at the mention of no man but Allah; we only recognize Allah as our MASTER who we bow and submit to unconditionally and also that we are two Muslims who has brought this subject ?3 Salaat Theory? to the Progressive Muslims head on, which none of them including you can?t refute and that is a CHALLENGE. Our age and experience has no cause and effect to the level of knowledge that we are bringing. It is only TRUTH that is the weight of measurement and not age, experience nor gender because TRUTH supersedes those artificial barriers. Any body can claim that they are from the hood and play the tough guy role and as a matter of fact those are usually the fakes or the-want-a-be?s. Those who are rooted in the communities, knowledge of self, the Deen do not need to play the tough guy role and talking about how they will punch someone in the mouth sitting in front of their computer alone, cyber space across from everybody. Enquirer who is fooling who?
You have said this
?And really,who cares of two,three,four five or ten salat/prayer a day.....Just do whatever works for you practically?
You sound like those shuffling Muslims who believes that you can just do what ever you want in Deen Allah (Allah?s prescribed way of life). On the other hand Muslims like my self and Zainab believe that we do not submit to ourselves, we believe that there is a LAW from the Most High for believers to submit to His WILL and ORDER and His prescribed way of life that Huwa (Allah) created for us. So with that in mind, we know that Salaat is not du'aa but Salaat is a prescribed form of worship and Islaam is not something or a system that you decide what and how you want to observe Salaat. Salaat is prescribed and there is a certain way of observing it and one of them is to observe 5 Salaat and not 3 like some Progressive Muslims do. I would like to provide this link that addresses the importance of observing 5 Salaat a day as it is prescribed by Allah Most Glorified And Exalted
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/importance_of_five_times.html
ISLAAM is not about what ever works for you. In ISLAAM a Muslim believes in submitting their entire will in PEACE to the will of Allah unconditionally and so we (Musims) follow the prescribed way that our Creator has laid it down for us to follow and not our own wishes and desires, enquirer its a BIG difference!
Salaam
Peace all. I just want to state that i understand and respect what brother idol-free said to khidr...This is the real world,...kyle did not seem to threaten khidr,but was just saying how his feelings would be,as a result of his philadelphia upbringing,if khidr was very disrespectful to him in person...Note kyle said he hoped he would transcend that negative emotion... I see others trying to intellectualise this discussion away from reality and into fairyland....I would like to see mr khidr and miss zainab step into the real world,and try to go to their local hood and see how far this hidding behind the computer mentality would take them when face to face with reality....I honestly feel that some posters are just eloquent insulters and like to win their fairyland debates...I would like to know the ages and real-life experiences that these characters have, before i respect their off the cuff,conditioned,self aggrandising,insecure and defensive posturing....Some folks got a lot of real-living,de-brainwashing and soul-searching to do.....
And really,who cares of two,three,four five or ten salat/prayer a day.....Just do whatever works for you practically.....Why the need for mass-produced,farm processed,monopolised,one size fits all soloutions.....? And how well do these peoples salats/rituals/prayers actually work,when their minds are still fuzzed in illusions,away from reality,and the manners are lacking....
When i see posters like these,i wonder what psycholgical condition they are in,clinging to illusions to make themselves feel superior,or more secure,then trying to impose their suspect understandings on everybody else,or trying to belittle others REAL-LIFE research....Like spoilt children.......ps; idolfree; just walk away from this non-sense and dont upset your peaceful state of mind,just view these people as being like little children being mischievious,dont let these ignorant people draw you in to mindless debates that may upset you,and lessen your positive energy...I have confidence that you will transcend this 'mini trial',im sure in the hood these folks wouldnt even look in your direction....'Sticks and stones may break my bones,but names will never hurt me'....In the grand scale of things what matters (as you well know.) is your reaction/response to outside events,and your reaction being positive,beneficial and having good consequences.....I look forward to your great posts,and very much appreciate your 'real-life' input on many threads......Keep it real...... handshake muscle bravo yay group
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Salaam FJ
Now you have said this
"I do not see any Salat during this INTERMINGLING, DO YOU?"
I have read your post and for one you are dealing with someone who is very skillful in debate and I will leave it at that point. Now I want to ask you this because I mapped out 5 Salaat already in the Qur'aan and anybody can choose to accept it or reject it. But I would like for you to fine tune your argument here and your strategic motives behind your argument you think you are attempting to bring forth and my question is to you
From your eyes and perception FJ if you said that you do not see Salaat during any time of that intermingling from that one verse you highlighted then FJ I want to know what type of conclusions are you drawing or arriving at usinig that form a logic? Can you please answer that question?
Salaam
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Peace zainab, al-khidr
zainab - do you feel personnaly attacked ? I was adressing idolfree and al-khidr and their communication problem.
Now ido i live in a civilized world ? no i don't consider the world around me as civilized. If you knew some more about laws, name calling is an offense in most "civilized" countries and about the attacks emananting from the net... i don't need to check in order to know that these came from people who didn't know how to discuss properly and politely in the first place.al-khidr if zainab put me any place it is "her" place and "so-called" elke is my real name. Concerning my intellectual and analytical capacities, thanks god i don't rely on people such as you in order to know both my limits and abilities.
Now to the salat theory who told you i defend three salat anyway ? I also never called myself progressive muslim. Whats your problem ? Go back to school and get some proper coaching on constructive discussion. If you were at least reading correctly, you'd have understood that i adressed you and idolfree in my post above.Now i'm out of this dispute, cause i dont usually dispute with people - i just hit them ;D
lk
I don't care a rat's tail for your personal attacks .. so even if I did feel I was personally attacked, it couldn't have been more insignificant for me. After all, apart from personal attacks you guys have got nothing else left in your pockets. You've been routed at every front. Admit it or not, again makes little difference. So, you might as well have some fun and exhaust all your 'personal attacks.'
But that's hardly the point. What's important is We're peaceful folks. Therefore, no more 'negotiations' with supporters of violence and massive online terror!
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I would like to see mr khidr and miss zainab step into the real world,and try to go to their local hood and see how far this hidding behind the computer mentality would take them when face to face with reality....I honestly feel that some posters are just eloquent insulters and like to win their fairyland debates...I would like to know the ages and real-life experiences that these characters have, before i respect their off the cuff,conditioned,self aggrandising,insecure and defensive posturing....Some folks got a lot of real-living,de-brainwashing and soul-searching to do.....
This is what I call a celebrity clown rotfl It was a somewhat dull evening, so thanks for the laugh ..
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peace
mods, can you clean this place up? I think there are too many off topic posts and they are a distraction from the actual discussion of salat that was going on about a few centuries ago.
offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic offtopic
peacep.s. going back on topic, I find the 2 salat "theory" the most convincing.
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Selaam Al-khidr
It is very interesting to see how skillfully you manage to avoid answering my question and ask me a question in return! Why brother Al-khidr, why? Is it hard for you to answer that simple question?
And you said this
I have read your post and for one you are dealing with someone who is very skillful in debate and I will leave it at that point.
What are you trying to achieve brother Al-khidr? Are you trying to scare me that it is better for me to quit debating because no matter what you are going to be the winer at the end? Is this what you want 'winning and only winning'? I admit I am not skillful in debates, but no one can stop me from asking questions.
I leave it at this point as you just did because I see you do not want to answer that simple quesiton.
From your eyes and perception FJ if you said that you do not see Salaat during any time of that intermingling from that one verse you highlighted then FJ I want to know what type of conclusions are you drawing or arriving at usinig that form a logic? Can you please answer that question?
How do you expect me to answer this question when you failed to answer mine?
The verse is very clear "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another" It is very simple, we can play, laugh, eat, converse, work together and so on except these three times the two of which are Salaat times.
Peace
FJ -
Salaam
The 3 salaat Theory has been defeated. The only way Progressive Muslims can handle defeat is by talking about how they will punch some one in the mouth, whine or cry about Al Khidr's approach, make personal statements but they can't intellectual fight a battle, they can't use Qur'aan alone in this debate. This debate been over a long time ago.
FJ that question you are asking is weak if I was Al Khidr I wouldn't waste my time. You are trying just like every one here to still leave a crack in the door to believe in that defeated theory of 3 salaat. Why don't you admit that you are in a blind way try to say that there is no intermingling so there for it sounds like you want to conclude that there must not be any more Salaat. What you need to do is read the Qur'aan with an open mind and check out the verses Al Khidr has provided you. Give it up this debate is over its been defeated a long time ago. I looked at every single one of those many English translations and they all make it clear that it is referring to 5 salaat periods.
Al Khidr answered all your questions and responded to every ones questions in this thread which most was not related to the topic and u can't answer that question. We know why.
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Selaam all,
no_shirk qoute
FJ that question you are asking is weak if I was Al Khidr I wouldn't waste my time.
Weak?! Where is the weakness? ??? Well, I can see that that question is causing you some trouble and that type of response is from one who has no answer. Neither you nor brother Al-khidr is wasting his time in answering such a simple question. Sincerely, just have a look at the verse and ponder on what it says and then tell me I am wrong... "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another". You see it says other than these times we can either go and intermingle with them or they can come and intermingle with us. Tell me is it hard to answer this question?. For me it isn't because I am not trying to complicate things here, but for you it seems to be a very hard one.
Why don't you admit that you are in a blind way try to say that there is no intermingling so there for it sounds like you want to conclude that there must not be any more Salaat.
If you ment to say that since there is intermingling between these three times than there is no more Salaat then why don't you admit that that is what you yourself see or at least tell me what I am missing? Is it hard to believe that or you are just turning a blind eye to a verse as simple and easy to understand as that?
I ask everyone here in this forum to bring an understanding of this very simple verse "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another". What do you brothers and sisters think the verse means with intermingling here?
no_shirk next time please don't just step in and say, 'if I was Al-khidr I would not wast my time' but be patient and at least try to give some reasons or another understanding of the verse other than that simple one.
Salaam
FJ -
Peace be upon you FJ,
Dont expect your valid question to be answered. It is clear to the objective reader that the verse goes from "dawn salaat" to a point where another suppossed salaat is suppossed to occur, but clearly does not mention, then to the ending pointy which is "dusk salaat". Why would the God use salaat at as markers for two of the three times? Compared with verses 1778 and 11114 we can see that there are two salaat prescribed per day. The times when the day merges with night, symbolic of the Consciousness and Subconcious coming together, in order for us to program our subconcios(nafs) and bring forth purification(zakaat) so that the God can manifest through our vehicles Its divine attributes.
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Peace zainab and khidr. Im afraid you two have demonstrated your delusions regarding how you seem to think you are some kind of sacred,sincere,superior muslims... (which implies other arent...) It seems you have very little concept of how to differentiate between a poster trying to discuss with you,and your feeling attacked and undermined....Which shows how immature and insecure your on-line mentality is...
I noticed you couldnt answer a basic question on your age,life-experience etc...You then showed your paranoia by claiming you didnt want to put out you personal life and business on the net/matrix....Hey mister,i asked some general questions,not your address,favourite restaurant or your bank pin number......Anyway you carry on with your fantasies.....other people have reality and real-life to deal with......
ps; how do you two do salat,because it dont seem to be making you humble,relaxed or receptive to the truth.....?
pps; sorry to phoenix and others for going off-topic....forgive me waleed.... -
Peace be upon you FJ,
I have bits and pieces all over. I used to live in this section of free minds. Rather than point you to many differnt places, I will try tp write up a small article between now and this weekend. My overall understanding is that salaat is the process of programming the Nafs(subconcious), which is the ENERGY part of being that is hidden from man. I is his garden that he must tend to by means of salaat. And with much patience, the God's help will come, metaphorized as good fruit.
Salaat and Zakaat are joined together often to show us that our goal in programming is to purify the "garden" subconcious, just as we tend the garden to remove weeds so that our flowers/fruits can grow.
Article coming soon.
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Salaam FJ
O yes your question indeed is weak, you really need to read that verse 2458.
Qur'aan 2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omoniscient, Most Wise.Your attempted to establish 3 Salaat here in this one verse alone is weak and keep in mind that no one who believs in 3 Salaat like you have not responded to your question here, I wonder why? People do take verses out of context to promote their belief. I doubt very seriously that Khidr cannot answer it what u don't see is how invalid your point that you are trying to bring home. Besides you never answered. Brother Khidr answered several of your questions and assumptions, I have read your other questions and his responses. Example you faslely concluded that he is trying to see how many people he can win over because he asked you a simple question like where are you at on 3 or 5 Salaat. He asked you a question about that verse and you won't answer. Just face it the 3 Salaat madness has been defeated, there is no more hope. I can clearly see 5 Salaat in all English translations and I wonder why you can't
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr) given in 11114, 2458
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuhr), given in 1778 and 3018
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib), given in 11114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha), given in 2458Read any English translation and it will be clear that those verses are the 5 Salaat periods. Some people no matter what will never see.
Selaam all,
no_shirk qoute
FJ that question you are asking is weak if I was Al Khidr I wouldn't waste my time.
Weak?! Where is the weakness? ??? Well, I can see that that question is causing you some trouble and that type of response is from one who has no answer. Neither you nor brother Al-khidr is wasting his time in answering such a simple question. Sincerely, just have a look at the verse and ponder on what it says and then tell me I am wrong... "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another". You see it says other than these times we can either go and intermingle with them or they can come and intermingle with us. Tell me is it hard to answer this question?. For me it isn't because I am not trying to complicate things here, but for you it seems to be a very hard one.
Why don't you admit that you are in a blind way try to say that there is no intermingling so there for it sounds like you want to conclude that there must not be any more Salaat.
If you ment to say that since there is intermingling between these three times than there is no more Salaat then why don't you admit that that is what you yourself see or at least tell me what I am missing? Is it hard to believe that or you are just turning a blind eye to a verse as simple and easy to understand as that?
I ask everyone here in this forum to bring an understanding of this very simple verse "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another". What do you brothers and sisters think the verse means with intermingling here?
no_shirk next time please don't just step in and say, 'if I was Al-khidr I would not wast my time' but be patient and at least try to give some reasons or another understanding of the verse other than that simple one.
Salaam
FJ -
Salaam enquirer
I disagree with your points here. Age and experience has nothing to do with truth or falsehood. to me that is a cheap shot. Also to your post is off topic. Their age and experience is not the subject. The debate is 3 or 5 Salaat and thats it. when will u return back to the topic? I do not put my personal life in forums like this it serves no purpose. This is all i see from the people who believes in 3 salaat theory. All I see is talking about bunching some one in the mouth and we have u talking about what age and the experience Zainab and Khidr has, some people do say they do not like khidr's approach. I see peronal comments, assumptions. Myself and others who followed this debate are saying when are the guys and women who believe in 3 salaat theory going to provide evidence in the Qur'aan? That is the real question brother Al Khidr already provided his evidence and they are listed in the 3 links.
Salaam
Peace zainab and khidr. Im afraid you two have demonstrated your delusions regarding how you seem to think you are some kind of sacred,sincere,superior muslims... (which implies other arent...) It seems you have very little concept of how to differentiate between a poster trying to discuss with you,and your feeling attacked and undermined....Which shows how immature and insecure your on-line mentality is...
I noticed you couldnt answer a basic question on your age,life-experience etc...You then showed your paranoia by claiming you didnt want to put out you personal life and business on the net/matrix....Hey mister,i asked some general questions,not your address,favourite restaurant or your bank pin number......Anyway you carry on with your fantasies.....other people have reality and real-life to deal with......
ps; how do you two do salat,because it dont seem to be making you humble,relaxed or receptive to the truth.....?
pps; sorry to phoenix and others for going off-topic....forgive me waleed.... -
Salaam IdolFree
I have examined both of those verses and more than 2 salaat times are mentioned in those verses. i am astonished to see how a few people are reading 2 salaat from those verses u mentioned. I do not know if you read this link
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm
Peace be upon you FJ,
Dont expect your valid question to be answered. It is clear to the objective reader that the verse goes from "dawn salaat" to a point where another suppossed salaat is suppossed to occur, but clearly does not mention, then to the ending pointy which is "dusk salaat". Why would the God use salaat at as markers for two of the three times? Compared with verses 1778 and 11114 we can see that there are two salaat prescribed per day. The times when the day merges with night, symbolic of the Consciousness and Subconcious coming together, in order for us to program our subconcios(nafs) and bring forth purification(zakaat) so that the God can manifest through our vehicles Its divine attributes.
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Peace no_shirk. I admit i was off-topic,but i wanted to respond to the two posters who seemed to be exuding a 'superiority complex'.....To be honest i was not debating the evidence for 2 or 3 salat,nor do i wish to debate it at length because i already gave my little comment on its irrelevance to real-life...
And i dont feel its a cheap shot to question someones experience/age....I said that because i feel some posters have no real-life experience,and just want to indulge in intellectual/theoretical games....
ps; once again,im not asking for peoples personal life details,but a rough sketch of their empirical/real-life experiences......Will i ask a 20 year old virgin for advise on relationships...? Dont you want your doctor/teacher to know practically what they are talking about? You get my drift....? Age and experience has nothing to do with truth...? So my little boy can give me solutions to fix my car hey? peace -
Peace be upon you NoShirk,
I have examined both of those verses and more than 2 salaat times are mentioned in those verses.
Both verses describe the rubbing of the sun until the darkeness of night, that is dawn and dusk. 11114 even says the dawn reading. If you cant see it I certainly wont force it on you. You are free to see as many as you can.
i am astonished to see how a few people are reading 2 salaat from those verses u mentioned. I do not know if you read this link
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm
Why would I be interested in information that starts off "This is a rebuttal to another misguided Muslim by the name of ******* aka The Cry Baby who posted ..."
However, I did read further and yes, I have seen this argument hundreds of times. Its the standard Sunni response. The only way it can be supported is to take words that dont mean salaat and make them mean salaat. I disagree as any objective reader without preconcieved ideas would.
But again, you are free to your understanding. But running around screaming "I win" is not an accurate statement.
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Qur'aan 2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omoniscient, Most Wise.As Salaamu Alaykum FJ
FJ you have said that you were not the best debater, with all do respect, after reading your post here, I would like to add to your list that the reverse psychology you attempted to use here is on an elementary level. This does not work with Al Khidr.
No-shirk has appropriately said it right, you really need to take a look at 2458 also read the other verses which clearly demonstrates that there are 5 Salaat and not 3. There have been attempts by people in this forum to even mistranslate Qur?aanic verses to support their Theory of 2 or 3 Salaat.
I have responded/answered many of your questions and you would not answer my question below in a previous post, we all know the real reasons why
But I would like for you to fine tune your argument here and your strategic motives behind your argument you think you are attempting to bring forth and my question to you is
From your eyes and perception FJ if you said that you do not see Salaat during any time of that intermingling from that one verse you highlighted then FJ I want to know what type of conclusions are you drawing or arriving at usinig that form a logic? Can you please answer that question??
FJ you are the only one that is fooling yourself and they have used you as a genie pick to present this weak argument and even you lack confidence in this argument which is disguised in the form of a question and that is why YOU will not answer my question. The ?3 Salaat Theory? has been DESTROYED from its very roots and no Muslims ever heard of that mess until they visit this forum. And now we have another Muslim here who says that the 5 and 3 Salaat position is wrong and that it is 2 Salaat. There is no taqwa here, people here are distorting the words of Allah at will.
I will leave this matter here and close with these verse
Qur?aan 275
Do you expect them to believe as you do, when some of them used to hear the word of Allah, then distort it, with full understanding thereof, and deliberately?Qur?aan 245
Do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor shall you conceal the truth, knowingly.Qur?aan 378
Some of them twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture. They then claim that it is from Allah, when it is not from Allah. They utter lies and attribute them to Allah, knowingly.Salaam
Selaam Al-khidr
It is very interesting to see how skillfully you manage to avoid answering my question and ask me a question in return! Why brother Al-khidr, why? Is it hard for you to answer that simple question?
And you said this
I have read your post and for one you are dealing with someone who is very skillful in debate and I will leave it at that point.
What are you trying to achieve brother Al-khidr? Are you trying to scare me that it is better for me to quit debating because no matter what you are going to be the winer at the end? Is this what you want 'winning and only winning'? I admit I am not skillful in debates, but no one can stop me from asking questions.
I leave it at this point as you just did because I see you do not want to answer that simple quesiton.
From your eyes and perception FJ if you said that you do not see Salaat during any time of that intermingling from that one verse you highlighted then FJ I want to know what type of conclusions are you drawing or arriving at usinig that form a logic? Can you please answer that question?
How do you expect me to answer this question when you failed to answer mine?
The verse is very clear "Other than these times, it is not wrong for you and them to intermingle with one another" It is very simple, we can play, laugh, eat, converse, work together and so on except these three times the two of which are Salaat times.
Peace
FJ