Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
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Salam Arnold
Just a simple question bro and I hope you give me a simple answer
Is Jahannam for you a place where the Kafiroon will be barbecued or it is a state of mind?
Thanks
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Peace arnold.
Great article. I have very similar thoughts, as we've talked about before. I have taken many notes and scribbled thoughts down that I will make into an article in the near future, except if God wills. Hopefully that article can be read as a complementary piece to yours, for a fuller understanding.
After I formulate my thoughts into an actual written piece, I'll be in touch with you about it.
Peace.
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Interesting article Arnold.
I've had my doubts about Janna and Jahannam being physical places for many years. But I never dared to speak my thoughts for fear of being labeled a heretic. In fact, ALL the "mutashabih" verses in the Reading are allegorical/metaphoric.
However, despite this, I still believe that there will be an afterlife. Even Einstein believed in an afterlife because, as he once stated "Energy can never die "..
Do you believe in the afterlife, Arnold?
P.S. CavemanDoctor your avatar is cool )
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Salam Arnold
Just a simple question bro and I hope you give me a simple answer
Is Jahannam for you a place where the Kafiroon will be barbecued or it is a state of mind?
Thanks
Peace,
God says clearly that it are allegories, so no, i don't believe they will be barbequed. If you take the fire literaly, you also have to take Jahannam literaly, this would mean that all the people of hell would end up south of Jerusalem in the valley of Jahannam. That would be one crowded valley then. That is the thing, you cannot take the fire literaly, as then you also have to take the position of Jahannam seriously. It are states of mind, but i do believe that after death it will be felt as an agony, as people will be confronted with the truth, which will be felt as 'burning of the heart'.
4715
Here is the parable/allegory of the paradise which the righteous have been promised it has rivers the water of which will never be stagnant, rivers of milk whose taste never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it they will have all kinds of fruits, as well as forgiveness from their Lord. Can such people be compared to those who shall dwell in hell forever, and they will be given scalding water which will cut their intestines into pieces?In allegorical terms the Paradise that the righteous are promised is this Therein are rivers of ever fresh water, and rivers of ever fresh milk, and rivers of delicious wine, and rivers of clear-run honey. Therein are all kinds of fruit (of their good deeds), with a life secure from deterioration bestowed upon them from their Lord. Are they like the ones who abide in the Fire and are given drinks of burning despair that tears their insides? ('Maghfirah' here denotes protection from deterioration).
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Interesting article Arnold.
I've had my doubts about Janna and Jahannam being physical places for many years. But I never dared to speak my thoughts for fear of being labeled a heretic. In fact, ALL the "mutashabih" verses in the Reading are allegorical/metaphoric.
However, despite this, I still believe that there will be an afterlife. Even Einstein believed in an afterlife because, as he once stated "Energy can never die "..
Do you believe in the afterlife, Arnold?
P.S. CavemanDoctor your avatar is cool )
Peace,
If you read carefully, you would have seen i said many times that there is as much Djenna and Gehenna in this life as the NEXT life. Yes, i do believe in the next life. Look halfway down my article to a link, it will show you a small article about the scientific proof for the afterlife...
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Salam Arnold
Just a simple question bro and I hope you give me a simple answer
Is Jahannam for you a place where the Kafiroon will be barbecued or it is a state of mind?
Thanks
Peace,
God says clearly that it are allegories, so no, i don't believe they will be barbequed.
So Jahannam mentioned in the Quran does not exist for real, right?
If you take the fire literaly, you also have to take Jahannam literaly,
Excuse me bro, I'm noot taling about fire here, I'm only talking about Jahannam, if jahannam has fire and freezing cold and many other things that is a differnt story so please stay on the subject of my question, thanks
this would mean that all the people of hell would end up south of Jerusalem in the valley of Jahannam.
excuse me again bro, did the Quran say that Jahannam is a valley south of Jerusalem ?
That would be one crowded valley then.
well you will have an argument when you prove that the Quran said Jahannam is a valley south of Jerusalem, however didn't you read in the Quran that Allah will replace this earth with another earth on the JD, now I ask you mate, how do you know that Jerusalem will exist on the new earth on the JD?
That is the thing,
well, it was one funny thing,
you cannot take the fire literaly, as then you also have to take the position of Jahannam seriously.
I appreciate your humor, now please tell you were not serious?
It are states of mind,
Did the Quran say that?
but i do believe that after death it will be felt as an agony, as people will be confronted with the truth, which will be felt as 'burning of the heart'.
ok, so the heart will burn but the skin will not burn, right?
also do you think Jahannam is hot only or hot and cold?
4715
Here is the parable/allegory of the paradise which the righteous have been promised it has rivers the water of which will never be stagnant, rivers of milk whose taste never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it they will have all kinds of fruits, as well as forgiveness from their Lord. Can such people be compared to those who shall dwell in hell forever, and they will be given scalding water which will cut their intestines into pieces?In allegorical terms the Paradise that the righteous are promised is this Therein are rivers of ever fresh water, and rivers of ever fresh milk, and rivers of delicious wine, and rivers of clear-run honey. Therein are all kinds of fruit (of their good deeds), with a life secure from deterioration bestowed upon them from their Lord. Are they like the ones who abide in the Fire and are given drinks of burning despair that tears their insides? ('Maghfirah' here denotes protection from deterioration).
so the word mathal at the start of the verse meant for you that the whole verse is a parable, right?
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Peace,
AB, i believe in jahannam, but not in the traditional approach. I do believe it is a state of agony which will be felt when they are confronted with the truth. As for jahannam. Where do you think the name came from? Why God uses the term Jahannam? The definition didn't come out of the air, it was an already known parable in the middle east. And didn't you read my article where i quoted the verse that says the earth will be created a new? Yes, i see the parable talking about the whole verse.
This parable is compared
The Paradise's allegory which the fearing and obeying were promised in it, (is) rivers from water not stagnant , and rivers from milk, its taste did not change, and rivers from wine/all intoxicants, (it is a) delight/pleasure to the drinking , and rivers from purified/strained honey/molasses , and for them in it (are) from all the fruits, and forgiveness from their Lord,
With this parable
as/like who he is immortal/eternal in the fire , and they were made to drink hot/cold water , so it cut off/severed their intestines/guts.I know you don't agree with me AB, your approach is different then mine. You cannot stay professional and always give personal comments which is disturbing the discussion to be objective and productive. So i'll not answer you, except when i see something productive to discuss in your posts.
Peace
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Peace,
Peace
AB, i believe in jahannam, but not in the traditional approach.
Bro my question was simple, is Jahannam REAL or NOT?, please give me one word answer
The reason I'm asking is simply obvious, I'm setting a trap to you, see how honest I'm
I do believe it is a state of agony which will be felt when they are confronted with the truth.
So Jahannam for you is NOT REAL, just something we will suffer in the thoughts, right?
As for jahannam. Where do you think the name came from?
From Allah via the Quran
Why God uses the term Jahannam?
Well you mat ask Him that question on the JD, I don't talk on His behalf, but let me ask you first why you parents called you Arnold?
The definition didn't come out of the air,
Sure, it came form Allah in the Quran and He described it in great details, I'm making a a movie about Jahannam actually, I'm making especially for you, I guess I should say you inspired me to make it, will take me some time though
it was an already known parable in the middle east.
Really?, well if so, then so?
And didn't you read my article where i quoted the verse that says the earth will be created a new? Yes, i see the parable talking about the whole verse.
Bro I only read Quran verses and its comments, if they are burried in long article that sound blasphemy to me, I won't really read it unless you want to discuss that specific verse you are talking about, but hey if the earth will be created new as you just said, how do you now that Jueresalam will be there?
This parable is compared
The Paradise's allegory which the fearing and obeying were promised in it, (is) rivers from water not stagnant , and rivers from milk, its taste did not change, and rivers from wine/all intoxicants, (it is a) delight/pleasure to the drinking , and rivers from purified/strained honey/molasses , and for them in it (are) from all the fruits, and forgiveness from their Lord,
With this parable
as/like who he is immortal/eternal in the fire , and they were made to drink hot/cold water , so it cut off/severed their intestines/guts.and how about the other million verses "expression" that tells us the opposite of what you say, are you gonna walk us through to guide us on that new concept or you want to leave that to me?
I know you don't agree with me AB,
of course if you suggest something that clearly contradict the Quran in zillions of locations "expression" then I have to disagree with you, I will go to hell if I agree to you and I really don't want to get burnt, but hey of you say something that make sense and does not contradict the quran then there is no reaosn for me not to agree with you
your approach is different then mine.
Even with that, don't you think that we should reach the same final result as both of us claim to believe in the very same book?
You cannot stay professional and always give personal comments which is disturbing the discussion to be objective and productive.
well I expect that some one like you and a few others will say as such, no surprise indeed, but you should also know that there are many that think the opposite of you and the likes of you
So i'll not answer you, except when i see something productive to discuss in your posts.
Of course this is your right and won't upset me really I do the same with a few, however I hope you reserve you right to expose my Quran ignorance to the public when needed exactly as I'm going to do to you
Peace
Peace Arnold
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Peace AB
How do you define "real?" Are only physical locations real to you? I don't understand why you keep asking this question.
Are your emotions real? Are your thoughts real? Why does Jahannam have to be a physical place to be "real?"
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Peace AB
Peace bro
How do you define "real?"
anything made by Allah that I can see with my eyes
Are only physical locations real to you?
well, If Allah told me in the Quran that a place is a physical location, then that location must be real
I don't understand why you keep asking this question.
Because what Arnols is suggesting and cheered for contradict the Quran because the Quran confirms 100% that Jahannam is real and we will see it with our own eyes and not just the heart that will suffer rather many parts of the human body, this alone makes Arnold argum,ent a joke,
His concept is very old though nothing new, he just fine tuned it using the Quran to mkae it look beautiful for the Muslims
now it will be my turn to prove that Jahannam is for real
Are your emotions real?
'm not discussing emmotions here, I'm discussing "jahhanam is real or not" and I donlt tgake perosnla insights really, I only take the Quran as evidences
Are your thoughts real?
Again bro, I'm not discussing thoughts here, I'm discussing "jahhanam is real or not" and I donlt tgake perosnla insights really, I only take the Quran as evidences
Why does Jahannam have to be a physical place to be "real?"
Because Allah described physically to us in great details
now for Arnoils to use tehe word Mathal in that verse to claim that Jahannam is a metaphor is a clear cut case of ignorance and I will have a surprise for him later,
Salam
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Peace AB
Maybe I misspoke. I know you're not talking about emotions and thoughts but I asked those rhetorical questions to point to you that "real" isn't just what you see with your eyes.
Why do you restrict reality to such a narrow meaning? So if you don't see something with your eyes, its not real? If you hear a bird chirping, the chirping is not real cause you cant see it? Are you seriously suggesting such a thing?
Arnold's point isnt that Jahannam isn't real. He just doesnt have such a narrow view of reality as you. He doesnt restrict reality to whatever the human eye can perceive.
You act as if Jahannam being a state of mind and Jahannam being real are mutually exclusive. Why can't it be both? Why does mental state = fake, to you?
If I'm experiencing pain, is that not real? Why does real have to be a place?
If I'm experiencing joy, is that not real? Why does real have to be a place?
If I'm being conscious of my Creator, if I'm praying to my Creator, if I'm thanking my Creator, are these thoughts of mine not real? Why does real have to be a place?I hope I've made myself clear. I'm not trying to sound mean but I thought this would be common sense reality isnt merely what one can see, or what one can physically step foot on. Reality is many things. Interpreting the Qur'an in a way that suggests Jahannam isn't a physical place doesnt mean that one is calling Jahannam fake, or that one is doubting Allah's words, or that one is trying to make things "beautiful for Muslims."
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Peace AB
Peace bro
Maybe I misspoke. I know you're not talking about emotions and thoughts but I asked those rhetorical questions to point to you that "real" isn't just what you see with your eyes.
Or told by Allah that it exists for real, I will take Allah words over all humans including prophets
Why do you restrict reality to such a narrow meaning?
I don?t restrict reality neither I manipulate it nor I fear it, what baffles me that Allah was clear as light in the Quran that Hell is for real, now I may ask you
Why you manipulate Allah words?
So if you don't see something with your eyes, its not real?
Or Allah told me about it in the Quran and I have not seen it, IT MUST BE REAL, i.e. all the stories of the past told by Allah in His Quran MUST BE REAL and I never saw it nor I will.
If you hear a bird chirping, the chirping is not real cause you cant see it? Are you seriously suggesting such a thing?
Not really, it is you tryin to be a bit clever with me, well I?m not talking about a bird here however to respond to your Tom and Jerry argument, yeh if I hear a chirping of a bird then I may think of the following
- it is a real bird (because I have seen birds before doing the same thing)
- my neighbour is watching a movie with a bird chirping in it (he had the volume on high)
- my other neighbour is playing a CD with a bird chirping in it (she had the volume on high)
- some one driving by with massive loud stereo in his car and playing a cd with a bird chirping in it
- my neighbour kids are playing birds voices
come on bro, that was a very Tommy argument, we are talking about HELL bro, a serious matter that me and you will see it with our own eyes for real, hope me and you will not enter it for one second otherwise our skin will melt and Allah will replace it with new skin then will melt then will be replaced and so on, this is real agony bro , NOW ALLAH TOLD US THAT IT EXISTS FOR REAL, and according to my simple rule
Allah witness overwrites any human witness therefore
Allah witness overwrites Arnold witness
see
1 + 1 = 2
Arnold's point isnt that Jahannam isn't real. He just doesnt have such a narrow view of reality as you. He doesnt restrict reality to whatever the human eye can perceive.
I?d rather be narrow minded then and not a clear cut manipulative to Allah words, the likes of Arnold are described clearly in the Quran, it is those who say lies about Allah that He never said, and they are doomed, now let the open mind help them on the JD when they see the hell for real with their own eyes, THIS IS WHAT ALLAH SAID NOT ME, but sorry I forgot that you take the humans witness over/along your God witness
You act as if Jahannam being a state of mind and Jahannam being real are mutually exclusive.
Of course it is , this is what the Quran said exactly
Why can't it be both?
Because Allah only said it is one
Now if I take both, one from Allah and one from Arnold, don?t you think THIS IS A CLEAR CUT CASE OF SHIRK?
I?m not a mushrik nor I will be because I know that the SHIRK IS ZANBUN AZIM
Why does mental state = fake, to you?
I?m not saying mental state is fake, in fact I know that part of Jahanaam torture will be mental, what I?m saying is, it is also physical along with the mental, in fact the physical punishment that was described in details by Allah is far more, this is enough to cause severe mental punishment.
But Arnold is saying that it is ONLY mental and will only be felt in the heart and Allah never said that, even if Arnold says that he accepts what Allah said about Jahanaam but he considers the possibility that it may be as such then he committed shirk.
If I'm experiencing pain, is that not real?
Bro, I don?t like these sort of questions, you can discuss it with many philosophers here, you are talking with the wrong person
However I will try to answer it, you forgot that part of the punishment is many dialogues that will happen between the hell dwellers and the Hell Angels as well between the Hell dwellers and the garden dwellers, how this can be mental only?
Also Allah told us that the skin will be replaced many times, again how this will be mental?,
do you think that we will be just dead bodies going through nightmares?
Well, that is what mister Arnold is implying like the Kafiroon exactly who could not comprehend that Allah will resurrect them for real, so they said it will never happen, with mister Arnold however he put in a smart way that it will never happen and we will be like asleep going through dreams
Haha, there is no much difference between his concept and the kafiroon concept, he was just clever to use the quran with it.
Why does real have to be a place?
How many times you asked the question in different ways bro?, but this time you put it in a way that does not make sense ? Why does real have to be a place??, hmmmm, ok can you please ask it in another way?, cheers and excuse my English if the question was put smartly and I didn?t get it
If I'm experiencing joy, is that not real? Why does real have to be a place?
If I'm being conscious of my Creator, if I'm praying to my Creator, if I'm thanking my Creator, are these thoughts of mine not real? Why does real have to be a place?Ok now you are going to ask me the same questions about Heaven, well the same for hell apply, cheers
I hope I've made myself clear. I'm not trying to sound mean but I thought this would be common sense
No, no you were not mean, I hope I?m not mean either, now what makes sense is NOT TAKING A HUMAN WORD ALONG WITH ALLAH WORDS AS THIS IS CLEAR CUT SHIRK, thanks
reality isnt merely what one can see, or what one can physically step foot on. Reality is many things. Interpreting the Qur'an in a way that suggests Jahannam isn't a physical place doesnt mean that one is calling Jahannam fake, or that one is doubting Allah's words, or that one is trying to make things "beautiful for Muslims."
Exactly, it is called SHIRK, here it is again in points
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Allah says Jahanaam is for real after we will be resurrected, i.e. there is physical fire, and even a whole community living in there that communicate together, Allah also says many parts in our bodies will feel the pain
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Arnold says Jahanaam is for real but only as thoughts in the heart, i.e. no physical fire and only the heart will feel the pain, it implies no resurrection indeed
Now those who will believe in both as a possibility MUST BE MISHRIKOON, because they took a human word along with Allah word while that human having no authority for that
AND AGAIN ?INA AL SHIRK LA ZANBUN AZIM
Salam
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peace,
AB, i do believe in the resurrection. If you would have taken some time you would have read that, next time be carefull with your lying accusations. Your so busy with attacking you got half wrong.
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peace,
AB, i do believe in the resurrection. If you would have taken some time you would have read that, next time be carefull with your lying accusations. Your so busy with attacking you got half wrong.
Arnold, I said it IMPLIES
thanks
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Peace ab,
It seems to me that you're contradicting yourself, or maybe you made a mistake in your definition of "real."
Earlier you stated your definition
anything made by Allah that I can see with my eyes
Don't take offense to this. I know you believe in God, but isn't God unseen? Does that mean He's not real? What about Jinns? Are they not real?
I know you believe in God/Jinns/etc., so I don't understand why your definition would be that. Just trying to help you out. Don't take offense. I promise I'm not the enemy of Islam.
Peace
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Peace,
AB, you ended with 'this implies no resurrection indeed'. This is the biggest nonsense and shows you don't understand a molecule of what my article said. I have even written a scientifical approach to the Afterlife which proves there are natural laws of resurrection. How can it even come close to 'imply'? i recommend you stop the baseless implying as it only destroys your credibility.
I belief jahannam is a state of mind which is already in working progress now as it is implied by this verse
3919 On the other hand, he who has inevitably deserved suffering can you save someone who is already consumed in the Fire?
- But whoso has been blind in this world shall be blind in the world to come, even farther astray from the path.
So if you would take the Quran so literaly, does this mean then that the above tells us that the blind people now on earth also will be blind in the next? And do you see the rejectors burning already?
This state of agony and illusion will go on after the resurrection as told in my article. And i approach the verses on skin differently as 'skin' has multiple meanings. I approach the Quran with a philosophical and scientific background, so i see the words that are used with a different view then you. You have misunderstood my article and try to twist some things to slander with your 'implying'.
If your quest was to show my conclusions are wrong and to save me from my straying you would have used different words. But you immediatly start to scream 'blasphemy' and 'kafiroen' and even 'shirk'. If you really would be interrested in spreading the truth you wouldn't have used those words, but would have adressed me in a normal way and corrected me in a polite manner. For a mature man you handled things in a childish manner.
You abuse the Quranic warnings to make people 'kafir' based on your judgement and your view of the Quran. God will question you on this, as only God knows what is in the hearts, and is the only Judge. To say i will go to Jahannam is saying you know the Unseen, the future, this is blasphemy.
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Peace ab,
Peace OM
It seems to me that you're contradicting yourself, or maybe you made a mistake in your definition of "real."
well, let's see
Earlier you stated your definition
anything made by Allah that I can see with my eyes
Don't take offense to this. I know you believe in God, but isn't God unseen? Does that mean He's not real? What about Jinns? Are they not real?
Haha, nice try bro, I'm damn accurate and my comment was put smartly
now, did Allah made himself?
no so Alla is exclkuded from my statement because you only believe that He exists for real
nice try bro, my statement was concering the objects like me and you and sun that is created by Allah
I know you believe in God/Jinns/etc., so I don't understand why your definition would be that. Just trying to help you out. Don't take offense. I promise I'm not the enemy of Islam.
Peace
for the Jinn, again Allah told us the he creatred them and Allah witness is enough for me to take them as real, if a human told me that nont Allah then I will tell them to gugger off
Salam
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Peace AB
I ask you why Jahannam can't be real and a mental state at the same time (i.e. why does "real" have to mean a physical location?) and your response is that Allah said it cant be both, and that it is only one. Now who is putting words in Allah's mouth? Maybe I've missed the verse. Is there a verse that says "Jahannam is a physical place, and not a mental state" or something similar? Can you point out a verse to me that says Jahannam has to be physical and nothing else? You see, you're using your preconceived notions of Allah's words.
Just because you paste Allah's words and say the words mean X, doesnt mean X is Allah's words. X is just your interpretation of Allah's words. Similarly, others (who you vehemently disagree with) use those very same Allah's words and interpret them as Y. And yet you say they're making up their own words while you're only relying on Allah's words.
You yourself are not above subjective impressions, preconceived notions, and biased interpretations. I think, the sooner you realize that, the better off these discussions will be.
The argument I was making about the bird chirping wasn't mean to be "clever" or "tom and jerry." I was making a very serious point, a point that I thought would be common sense "real" isnt just what you can see. I'm not going to beat around the bush. Thinking "reality" is only what we can see with the human eye is simply one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life. Sounds you hear, feelings you have, all these things that the human eye cannot perceive, are not real? I simply cannot understand how anyone can claim such a thing.
Similarly, it is possible that Allah uses imagery (imagery that the human mind can comprehend) to speak about things that we (in our limited experience) cannot possibly comprehend. Not everything is literal. This isnt me changing Allah's words or doubting Allah. This is me simply using the brain that Allah gave me. I have the humility to realize that my Creator is Transcendent and Infinite, and that His knowledge surpasses my own and that, for the sake of human understanding, He has painted the message about certain things in metaphorical terms, in human imagery. This is completely possible. Nay, it is probable. How does one explain the taste of chocolate to one who has never even seen it?
Very clearly, Allah has spoken in metaphorical terms before; I don't see why this is any different. Does not Allah sit on His Throne (Arsh, 3975)? Is that literal? Is that "real?" Do you honestly think that Allah (the Creator of the Universe) sits on a physical chair? I'm sure you don't. I'm sure you see that as a metaphor for God's power and Sovereignty, just as we all do. Why is this any different? Why does "fire" have to be a physical fire? Why can't "fire" be like that throne that Allah speaks about?
If you say that Allah does not sit on a physical throne, I can respond in kind So you don't think the Throne is "real" ? Are you saying Allah lied? Are you doubting Allah's words? etc. etc.
Why is this any different?
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Brother cavemandoctor, i will respond to you later today, I have to go to work, running late already.
I haven't read it yet, sorry
Cheers