Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
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Peace AB
Maybe I misspoke. I know you're not talking about emotions and thoughts but I asked those rhetorical questions to point to you that "real" isn't just what you see with your eyes.
Why do you restrict reality to such a narrow meaning? So if you don't see something with your eyes, its not real? If you hear a bird chirping, the chirping is not real cause you cant see it? Are you seriously suggesting such a thing?
Arnold's point isnt that Jahannam isn't real. He just doesnt have such a narrow view of reality as you. He doesnt restrict reality to whatever the human eye can perceive.
You act as if Jahannam being a state of mind and Jahannam being real are mutually exclusive. Why can't it be both? Why does mental state = fake, to you?
If I'm experiencing pain, is that not real? Why does real have to be a place?
If I'm experiencing joy, is that not real? Why does real have to be a place?
If I'm being conscious of my Creator, if I'm praying to my Creator, if I'm thanking my Creator, are these thoughts of mine not real? Why does real have to be a place?I hope I've made myself clear. I'm not trying to sound mean but I thought this would be common sense reality isnt merely what one can see, or what one can physically step foot on. Reality is many things. Interpreting the Qur'an in a way that suggests Jahannam isn't a physical place doesnt mean that one is calling Jahannam fake, or that one is doubting Allah's words, or that one is trying to make things "beautiful for Muslims."
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Peace AB
Peace bro
Maybe I misspoke. I know you're not talking about emotions and thoughts but I asked those rhetorical questions to point to you that "real" isn't just what you see with your eyes.
Or told by Allah that it exists for real, I will take Allah words over all humans including prophets
Why do you restrict reality to such a narrow meaning?
I don?t restrict reality neither I manipulate it nor I fear it, what baffles me that Allah was clear as light in the Quran that Hell is for real, now I may ask you
Why you manipulate Allah words?
So if you don't see something with your eyes, its not real?
Or Allah told me about it in the Quran and I have not seen it, IT MUST BE REAL, i.e. all the stories of the past told by Allah in His Quran MUST BE REAL and I never saw it nor I will.
If you hear a bird chirping, the chirping is not real cause you cant see it? Are you seriously suggesting such a thing?
Not really, it is you tryin to be a bit clever with me, well I?m not talking about a bird here however to respond to your Tom and Jerry argument, yeh if I hear a chirping of a bird then I may think of the following
- it is a real bird (because I have seen birds before doing the same thing)
- my neighbour is watching a movie with a bird chirping in it (he had the volume on high)
- my other neighbour is playing a CD with a bird chirping in it (she had the volume on high)
- some one driving by with massive loud stereo in his car and playing a cd with a bird chirping in it
- my neighbour kids are playing birds voices
come on bro, that was a very Tommy argument, we are talking about HELL bro, a serious matter that me and you will see it with our own eyes for real, hope me and you will not enter it for one second otherwise our skin will melt and Allah will replace it with new skin then will melt then will be replaced and so on, this is real agony bro , NOW ALLAH TOLD US THAT IT EXISTS FOR REAL, and according to my simple rule
Allah witness overwrites any human witness therefore
Allah witness overwrites Arnold witness
see
1 + 1 = 2
Arnold's point isnt that Jahannam isn't real. He just doesnt have such a narrow view of reality as you. He doesnt restrict reality to whatever the human eye can perceive.
I?d rather be narrow minded then and not a clear cut manipulative to Allah words, the likes of Arnold are described clearly in the Quran, it is those who say lies about Allah that He never said, and they are doomed, now let the open mind help them on the JD when they see the hell for real with their own eyes, THIS IS WHAT ALLAH SAID NOT ME, but sorry I forgot that you take the humans witness over/along your God witness
You act as if Jahannam being a state of mind and Jahannam being real are mutually exclusive.
Of course it is , this is what the Quran said exactly
Why can't it be both?
Because Allah only said it is one
Now if I take both, one from Allah and one from Arnold, don?t you think THIS IS A CLEAR CUT CASE OF SHIRK?
I?m not a mushrik nor I will be because I know that the SHIRK IS ZANBUN AZIM
Why does mental state = fake, to you?
I?m not saying mental state is fake, in fact I know that part of Jahanaam torture will be mental, what I?m saying is, it is also physical along with the mental, in fact the physical punishment that was described in details by Allah is far more, this is enough to cause severe mental punishment.
But Arnold is saying that it is ONLY mental and will only be felt in the heart and Allah never said that, even if Arnold says that he accepts what Allah said about Jahanaam but he considers the possibility that it may be as such then he committed shirk.
If I'm experiencing pain, is that not real?
Bro, I don?t like these sort of questions, you can discuss it with many philosophers here, you are talking with the wrong person
However I will try to answer it, you forgot that part of the punishment is many dialogues that will happen between the hell dwellers and the Hell Angels as well between the Hell dwellers and the garden dwellers, how this can be mental only?
Also Allah told us that the skin will be replaced many times, again how this will be mental?,
do you think that we will be just dead bodies going through nightmares?
Well, that is what mister Arnold is implying like the Kafiroon exactly who could not comprehend that Allah will resurrect them for real, so they said it will never happen, with mister Arnold however he put in a smart way that it will never happen and we will be like asleep going through dreams
Haha, there is no much difference between his concept and the kafiroon concept, he was just clever to use the quran with it.
Why does real have to be a place?
How many times you asked the question in different ways bro?, but this time you put it in a way that does not make sense ? Why does real have to be a place??, hmmmm, ok can you please ask it in another way?, cheers and excuse my English if the question was put smartly and I didn?t get it
If I'm experiencing joy, is that not real? Why does real have to be a place?
If I'm being conscious of my Creator, if I'm praying to my Creator, if I'm thanking my Creator, are these thoughts of mine not real? Why does real have to be a place?Ok now you are going to ask me the same questions about Heaven, well the same for hell apply, cheers
I hope I've made myself clear. I'm not trying to sound mean but I thought this would be common sense
No, no you were not mean, I hope I?m not mean either, now what makes sense is NOT TAKING A HUMAN WORD ALONG WITH ALLAH WORDS AS THIS IS CLEAR CUT SHIRK, thanks
reality isnt merely what one can see, or what one can physically step foot on. Reality is many things. Interpreting the Qur'an in a way that suggests Jahannam isn't a physical place doesnt mean that one is calling Jahannam fake, or that one is doubting Allah's words, or that one is trying to make things "beautiful for Muslims."
Exactly, it is called SHIRK, here it is again in points
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Allah says Jahanaam is for real after we will be resurrected, i.e. there is physical fire, and even a whole community living in there that communicate together, Allah also says many parts in our bodies will feel the pain
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Arnold says Jahanaam is for real but only as thoughts in the heart, i.e. no physical fire and only the heart will feel the pain, it implies no resurrection indeed
Now those who will believe in both as a possibility MUST BE MISHRIKOON, because they took a human word along with Allah word while that human having no authority for that
AND AGAIN ?INA AL SHIRK LA ZANBUN AZIM
Salam
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peace,
AB, i do believe in the resurrection. If you would have taken some time you would have read that, next time be carefull with your lying accusations. Your so busy with attacking you got half wrong.
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peace,
AB, i do believe in the resurrection. If you would have taken some time you would have read that, next time be carefull with your lying accusations. Your so busy with attacking you got half wrong.
Arnold, I said it IMPLIES
thanks
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Peace ab,
It seems to me that you're contradicting yourself, or maybe you made a mistake in your definition of "real."
Earlier you stated your definition
anything made by Allah that I can see with my eyes
Don't take offense to this. I know you believe in God, but isn't God unseen? Does that mean He's not real? What about Jinns? Are they not real?
I know you believe in God/Jinns/etc., so I don't understand why your definition would be that. Just trying to help you out. Don't take offense. I promise I'm not the enemy of Islam.
Peace
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Peace,
AB, you ended with 'this implies no resurrection indeed'. This is the biggest nonsense and shows you don't understand a molecule of what my article said. I have even written a scientifical approach to the Afterlife which proves there are natural laws of resurrection. How can it even come close to 'imply'? i recommend you stop the baseless implying as it only destroys your credibility.
I belief jahannam is a state of mind which is already in working progress now as it is implied by this verse
3919 On the other hand, he who has inevitably deserved suffering can you save someone who is already consumed in the Fire?
- But whoso has been blind in this world shall be blind in the world to come, even farther astray from the path.
So if you would take the Quran so literaly, does this mean then that the above tells us that the blind people now on earth also will be blind in the next? And do you see the rejectors burning already?
This state of agony and illusion will go on after the resurrection as told in my article. And i approach the verses on skin differently as 'skin' has multiple meanings. I approach the Quran with a philosophical and scientific background, so i see the words that are used with a different view then you. You have misunderstood my article and try to twist some things to slander with your 'implying'.
If your quest was to show my conclusions are wrong and to save me from my straying you would have used different words. But you immediatly start to scream 'blasphemy' and 'kafiroen' and even 'shirk'. If you really would be interrested in spreading the truth you wouldn't have used those words, but would have adressed me in a normal way and corrected me in a polite manner. For a mature man you handled things in a childish manner.
You abuse the Quranic warnings to make people 'kafir' based on your judgement and your view of the Quran. God will question you on this, as only God knows what is in the hearts, and is the only Judge. To say i will go to Jahannam is saying you know the Unseen, the future, this is blasphemy.
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Peace ab,
Peace OM
It seems to me that you're contradicting yourself, or maybe you made a mistake in your definition of "real."
well, let's see
Earlier you stated your definition
anything made by Allah that I can see with my eyes
Don't take offense to this. I know you believe in God, but isn't God unseen? Does that mean He's not real? What about Jinns? Are they not real?
Haha, nice try bro, I'm damn accurate and my comment was put smartly
now, did Allah made himself?
no so Alla is exclkuded from my statement because you only believe that He exists for real
nice try bro, my statement was concering the objects like me and you and sun that is created by Allah
I know you believe in God/Jinns/etc., so I don't understand why your definition would be that. Just trying to help you out. Don't take offense. I promise I'm not the enemy of Islam.
Peace
for the Jinn, again Allah told us the he creatred them and Allah witness is enough for me to take them as real, if a human told me that nont Allah then I will tell them to gugger off
Salam
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Peace AB
I ask you why Jahannam can't be real and a mental state at the same time (i.e. why does "real" have to mean a physical location?) and your response is that Allah said it cant be both, and that it is only one. Now who is putting words in Allah's mouth? Maybe I've missed the verse. Is there a verse that says "Jahannam is a physical place, and not a mental state" or something similar? Can you point out a verse to me that says Jahannam has to be physical and nothing else? You see, you're using your preconceived notions of Allah's words.
Just because you paste Allah's words and say the words mean X, doesnt mean X is Allah's words. X is just your interpretation of Allah's words. Similarly, others (who you vehemently disagree with) use those very same Allah's words and interpret them as Y. And yet you say they're making up their own words while you're only relying on Allah's words.
You yourself are not above subjective impressions, preconceived notions, and biased interpretations. I think, the sooner you realize that, the better off these discussions will be.
The argument I was making about the bird chirping wasn't mean to be "clever" or "tom and jerry." I was making a very serious point, a point that I thought would be common sense "real" isnt just what you can see. I'm not going to beat around the bush. Thinking "reality" is only what we can see with the human eye is simply one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life. Sounds you hear, feelings you have, all these things that the human eye cannot perceive, are not real? I simply cannot understand how anyone can claim such a thing.
Similarly, it is possible that Allah uses imagery (imagery that the human mind can comprehend) to speak about things that we (in our limited experience) cannot possibly comprehend. Not everything is literal. This isnt me changing Allah's words or doubting Allah. This is me simply using the brain that Allah gave me. I have the humility to realize that my Creator is Transcendent and Infinite, and that His knowledge surpasses my own and that, for the sake of human understanding, He has painted the message about certain things in metaphorical terms, in human imagery. This is completely possible. Nay, it is probable. How does one explain the taste of chocolate to one who has never even seen it?
Very clearly, Allah has spoken in metaphorical terms before; I don't see why this is any different. Does not Allah sit on His Throne (Arsh, 3975)? Is that literal? Is that "real?" Do you honestly think that Allah (the Creator of the Universe) sits on a physical chair? I'm sure you don't. I'm sure you see that as a metaphor for God's power and Sovereignty, just as we all do. Why is this any different? Why does "fire" have to be a physical fire? Why can't "fire" be like that throne that Allah speaks about?
If you say that Allah does not sit on a physical throne, I can respond in kind So you don't think the Throne is "real" ? Are you saying Allah lied? Are you doubting Allah's words? etc. etc.
Why is this any different?
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Brother cavemandoctor, i will respond to you later today, I have to go to work, running late already.
I haven't read it yet, sorry
Cheers
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Peace AB, no worries.
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Peace,
Peace bro
AB, you ended with 'this implies no resurrection indeed'. This is the biggest nonsense and shows you don't understand a molecule of what my article said.
Cool, make me understand then if you care, if you don't care then I will keep asking questions and you can ignore it
I have even written a scientifical approach to the Afterlife which proves there are natural laws of resurrection. How can it even come close to 'imply'? i recommend you stop the lying implications as it only destroys your credibility.
So we will be walking around, some are tortured in the heart and others are joyful in the heart, while nothing in the outside causes that but thoughts in the mind, right?
I belief jahannam is a state of mind
Now, did Allah say that?
which is already in working progress now as it is implied by this verse
3919 On the other hand, he who has inevitably deserved suffering can you save someone who is already consumed in the Fire?
(19)
-> I don?t get what you are saying regarding 3919, well, 3919 also confirms that the hell is real not state of mind as you are conjectruring, also the translation is flawed the words ?Consumed already? do not exist in the Arabic text, it should be as follow ? can you save someone who is in the Fire??, ? ?
- But whoso has been blind in this world shall be blind in the world to come, even farther astray from the path.
(72)
So if you would take the Quran so literaly, does this mean then that the above tells us that the blind people now on earth also will be blind in the next?
The verse is clearly a metaphor regarding the vision in this life NOT THE HELL FIRE, so for me to take it literally I have to take it as a metaphor at least for the first part because the first part of being blind on earth doesn?t apply to all the kafirron on earth, but I prefer to take the last part as not a metaphor and they will be blind for real, now please tell me what that has to do with the hell being real or thoughts of mind?
The reason I said I prefer to take the last part as real because Allah clearly told us what those blind kafirron will say to Him on the JD after they are raised blind for real
124- And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.
125- He will say O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?
(124)
(125)-> The above verse clearly and irrefutably tell us that the first part of 1772 is a metaphor ?Blind on Earth? and the second part is real ?Blind on the JD?, this is obvious from the kafir questioning Allah ? O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)??
And do you see the rejectors burning already?
Did 3919 say that they are burning already or it is you? Again the word already never existed in the Arabic text, this verse has no time frame indeed, it is Allah telling Mohammad that he will not be able to save those destined to the hell fire, past, present and future verbs do not apply on Allah mister
This state of agony and illusion will go on after the resurrection as told in my article.
And we will be walking around like under drugs and nothing in the vicinity around us ?I mean no real hell or real fire? and no angels, right?
And i approach the verses on skin differently as 'skin' has multiple meanings.
Oh please don?t tell me that the skin means heart, just kiddin, however I expect these sort of things to come from you
I approach the Quran with a philosophical and scientific background,
This maybe good for you, but why you think it will be good for others? Can you please show me a verse in the Quran that support your stand with the Quran?
so i see the words that are used with a different view then you. You have misunderstood my article and try to twist some things to slander with your 'implications'.
Well, then explain to me how the hell we will be resurrected and walking around while there is no real hell or garden and yet some will be happy and some will be tormented?, for example Allah told us that our sexual desires will be not restricted in the heaven this means we will have sex in the heaven so we will be walking around thinkinh of having sex and enjoying it? we will look like idiots bro
If your quest was to show my conclusions are wrong and to save me from my straying you would have used different words.
Not really bro, It is not my job to save you nor to save others, Allah is the one who will save you, me and others, I only have to do what I have to do and clearly I only talk literal Quran not philosophy. if a verse or part of it sounds irrefutably a metaphor then to take it literally I have to take that part as a metaphor because the literal meaning of a metaphor is a metaphor
But you immediatly start to scream 'blasphemy' and 'kafiroen' and even 'shirk'.
Well, well, well, so the Quran aloners are screaming for years the sunni and shia are mushrikoon, in which I agree to a degree with them, so why they can?t take the same criticism back?, well, if you see that I?m a mushrik, please let me know, I would really appreciate it if you make me aware of it
And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).
(106)
Please tell me, whom do you think the above verse apply to?
If you really would be interrested in spreading the truth you wouldn't have used those words,
I?m not really interested in spreading the truth, you got this wrong, the truth is widely spread in a book called Quran, it is the people who use it falsely, my mission is to expose the false and to do that I have to automatically spread the truth but because my mission is to expose the false, my style will be different than a mission to spread the truth. There is a lot in stake here, it is either hell or garden for eternity. Not an insight and a few cheers even if that insight is flawed. We can?t do that bro, we can?t play with Allah words as we wish, you think I?m challenging you personally, however think not, because I don?t know you at all, I?m only challenging the false claims you promote, now please have a look at the following few verses where I will present 2 strong points, one of them is the surprise I promised for you earlier
9- O Prophet! strive hard against the kuffar and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.
10- Allah citeth an example for those who disbelieve the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot, who were under two of Our righteous slaves yet betrayed them so that they (the husbands) availed them naught against Allah and it was said (unto them) Enter the Fire along with those who enter.
11- And Allah sets forth an example to those who believe the wife of Firon when she said My Lord! build for me a house with Thee in the garden and deliver me from Firon and his doing, and deliver me from the unjust people
(9)
(10)
(11)-> The first point, we read the following said by Allah to Mohammad ? strive hard against the kuffar and the hypocrites, and be hard against them?, now why Allah tell Mohammad to ? ?, ? and be hard against them?? well, it means to me that we have a serious matter in hand, you may say but the message is about the kuffar and the hypocrites and you are not one of them, well, I say what you say always make me believe that you are one of them and I?m proving this using the Quran, the matter of the fact however that I don?t wish you to be one of them.
-> The second point, you used the Arabic word ?Mathal? in the Paradise verse to inject a new concept that Jahnaam and Heaven are only metaphors, what you missed is this the word ?Mathal? does not always mean a metaphor, in fact it means only ?An Example?, the context will be the only factor to determine if it is used for a metaphor or not, , in 6610 & 6611 we read the word twice as examples of unbelieving women married to believers and unbelieving men married to believers
Now I may ask, do you consider the following people metaphors
- Prophet Lut and his wife
- Prophet Noah and his wife
- Pharaoh and his wife
?
but would have adressed me in a normal way
and what is a normal way exactly?
Bro your own fingers in the same hand are not the same, why you expect that all people should be the same?
and corrected me in a polite manner.
well, bro again regardless I agree with what you say or not, I?m sorry if you think that is was not polite, it was never my intension to be not polite with any one, my style is clear from day one and never changed, I have been here almost 9 months and you should know that this is who I?m , if you think I?m rude then I?m but not to you rather to the many non sense that you say and I told you that before, even if my brother said the same as you say I will treat him the exact same if not even harsher, remember 669 ? ?, ? and be hard against them?
now prove to me that what you say about hell is not blasphemy BUT ONLY USING THE QURAN ?I don?t take any other evidences when I debate Muslims including the sunnis?, thanks, and I tell you bro many sunnis hate me too., LOL, you know why? Because I?m the same with them when I corner them, their problem though is they can?t take it and the ban me, LOL this is what WhyIlsam sunni cult did with me, however there are many other sunni web sites that welcome me despite my harsh words, in fact there is an anti Islam web site that I?m always welcomed there, while I?m a freak over there, LOL
For a mature man you handle things in a childish manner.LOL, well, to be honest I found my manner interesting, I swear, sometimes it take me by surprise but I hardly regret doing it, well I will be 41 years old on 24/7 but somehow I feel I?m still in my twenties, come on bro, I try to be funny and harsh at the same time, to be honest man, I crack my self laughing while writing ,many of my comments despite being really serious at the same time and this is hard to do actually. It is a style nothing more and I enjoy it despite it takes most of my day that I suppose to be doing a whole heap of other things.
You abuse the Quranic warnings to make people 'kafir' based on your judgement and your view of the Quran.
Now I will consider this utter BS pending proofs using the Quran, cheers
God will question you on this,
Of course and here is a point that I agree with you
as only God knows what is in the hearts,
and here is another one that I agree with you, today is our happy day bro
and is the only Judge.
wow, and another one that I agree with, am I dreaming?
To say i will go to Jahannam is saying you know the Unseen, this is blasphemy
Bro be real and try to handle the truth not being defensive and scared from it, this is what the Quran say about anyone who claim things never said about Allah and His creation as you do many times, I tried to make you aware of it many times using the Quran and you totally turned a blind eye, while I respect you as a person and wish you always the best I don?t respect what you say because it is non sensible and in reality for you to come to us with some insights about Allah and His Quran without providing compelling evidences using the whole Quran to tackle all Jahannam verses and prove your point is absolutely disrespect to our intellects as Quran followers
Salam and all the best
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Peace AB, no worries.
Sorry I was busy wrting the above comment, it is 949 am and I have to be at work at 9, LOL
talk to you later today
Cheers
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Peace,
Quote
The verse is clearly a metaphor regarding the vision in this life NOT THE HELL FIRE, so for me to take it literally I have to take it as a metaphor at least for the first part because the first part of being blind on earth doesn?t apply to all the kafirron on earth, but I prefer to take the last part as not a metaphor and they will be blind for real, now please tell me what that has to do with the hell being real or thoughts of mind?The reason I said I prefer to take the last part as real because Allah clearly told us what those blind kafirron will say to Him on the JD after they are raised blind for real
124- And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.
125- He will say O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?
(124)
(125)-> The above verse clearly and irrefutably tell us that the first part of 1772 is a metaphor ?Blind on Earth? and the second part is real ?Blind on the JD?, this is obvious from the kafir questioning Allah ? O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)??
This verse doesn't say it is a metaphor. Why then do you take it as such? Oh, so now you pick and choose? But i cannot? Now you have to admit it is a metaphor while it doesn't say it is a metaphor. You interpretated yourself it has to be a metaphor using 20124-125. I did the same for Gehenna and Djenna, and you still don't get the article.
Peace
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Peace,
Quote
The verse is clearly a metaphor regarding the vision in this life NOT THE HELL FIRE, so for me to take it literally I have to take it as a metaphor at least for the first part because the first part of being blind on earth doesnt apply to all the kafirron on earth, but I prefer to take the last part as not a metaphor and they will be blind for real, now please tell me what that has to do with the hell being real or thoughts of mind?The reason I said I prefer to take the last part as real because Allah clearly told us what those blind kafirron will say to Him on the JD after they are raised blind for real
124- And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.
125- He will say O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?
(124)
(125)-> The above verse clearly and irrefutably tell us that the first part of 1772 is a metaphor Blind on Earth and the second part is real Blind on the JD, this is obvious from the kafir questioning Allah O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?
This verse doesn't say it is a metaphor.
because the common sense suggest as such unless you consider God talking non sense, in fact the verses after explain to us why they were considered blind metaphorically because they forgot ignored Allah message, clear as light it is a metaphor, so I donlt pick and chose according to my low desires, it is according to the common sense
in addition to the common sense provided in the verses expaling why they will be considered blind, it is clear that not all mishrikoon are physically blind so it has to be a metaphor, on the JD however we can't know because we have not been there yet however Allah clearly told that they will be raised physically blind as we read from the dialoguw between the kuffar and Him, so all the logical evidneces lead to taking the first part as metaohor and the seconad as real
Why then do you take it as such?
as above
Oh, so now you pick and choose?
according to clear common sense yes, but not according to my low desires
But i cannot?
no you can as long as it does not contradict another verse in the Quran
Now you have to admit it is a metaphor while it doesn't say it is a metaphor.
of course
You interpretated yourself it has to be a metaphor using 20124-125.
and 126 and 127 as well my interpretation does not create any of the zillions of conflicts and non sensible meanings as your interpretation does
I did the same for Gehenna and Djenna, and you still don't get the article.
Peace
NO I donlt get it because your interpretation will create zillions of many conflicts and non sense in the Quran, this will be explained in many of long comments that will be prepared for this thread
Peace
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Peace AB
Peace bro
I ask you why Jahannam can't be real and a mental state at the same time (i.e. why does "real" have to mean a physical location?)
Because I consider it as we live now in a physical location, do you consider the earth real?
and your response is that Allah said it cant be both, and that it is only one. Now who is putting words in Allah's mouth?
well, it is my lack of English indeed, sorry
what I meant that Allah only gave us ONE MEANING OF HELL, but nice try by you bro.
Maybe I've missed the verse. Is there a verse that says "Jahannam is a physical place, and not a mental state"
Well there are verse that clearly says Jahannam is a place, this will come soon in a few long comments and a flash movie, however, no, there no verse that says it is not a state of mind so this means for me that it can?t be that because Allah didn?t say that
or something similar?
possibly, I will look and see
Can you point out a verse to me that says Jahannam has to be physical and nothing else?
I don?t have to show a verse that Jahannam can?t be nothing else, however if Allah didn?t mention that it can be anything else then it can?t be anything else
You see, you're using your preconceived notions of Allah's words.
No, it is you trying to create a concept Allah never told us about, so again I may ask you why you are trying to manipulate Allah words regarding Jahannam?
Did He say it can be a state of mind?
Just because you paste Allah's words and say the words mean X, doesnt mean X is Allah's words.
For you possibly and I won?t give a fluke really but for many it does
X is just your interpretation of Allah's words.
At least I don?t add to it nor manipulate it
Similarly, others (who you vehemently disagree with) use those very same Allah's words and interpret them as Y.
But they add to it as well manipulate it, I?m no fool it is obvious to the naked believing eye, it is called feel good religion concept, a serious vulnerability for those who can?t comprehend that Hell is for real, I k now a lot of those and possibly I was one of them about 22 years ago, but at that time I didn?t try to manipulate it to make look more comfy I just faced the truth of jahanaam as mentioned in details in the Quran then I accepted it because it is from Allah.
And yet you say they're making up their own words while you're only relying on Allah's words.
Of course they are and of course I?m not unless it was a mistake in expression as you caught me with one earlier.
You yourself are not above subjective impressions, preconceived notions, and biased interpretations. I think, the sooner you realize that, the better off these discussions will be.
Will see how soon I can realize, I have been here 9 months and I realized a lot of things, unfortunately what you want to realize in unrealizable yet
The argument I was making about the bird chirping wasn't mean to be "clever" or "tom and jerry."
Of course it is doctor.
I was making a very serious point, a point that I thought would be common sense "real" isnt just what you can see.
But if Allah is in the picture then anything I hear from Him must be real
I'm not going to beat around the bush.
A good idea
Thinking "reality" is only what we can see with the human eye is simply one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life.
Obviously you missed the plot and only concentrating to flaw me, while it is your right, I hope you support your claims using the Quran if you can, now what you missed is this
Anything Allah says, must be real regardless I see it or not, NOW I MAY DO YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN OR NOT?
Sounds you hear, feelings you have, all these things that the human eye cannot perceive, are not real?
Don?t try to confuse the subject bro with some philosophical tendencies, we are only talking about the vision as well I?m talking about what Allah says not what the humans say
I simply cannot understand how anyone can claim such a thing.
Fine, but you may try thinking harder
Similarly, it is possible that Allah uses imagery (imagery that the human mind can comprehend) to speak about things that we (in our limited experience) cannot possibly comprehend. Not everything is literal.
I don?t know what you going on about, let?s start from square one again and try to simplify it
- The argument ?Is Jahhannam a PHYSICAL AND REAL PLACE OR NOT??
- Accepted evidences ?Quran Alone?
Ahmed says, yes it is 100% physical place and I will provide many evidences from the Quran inshaallah to support my claim, I need a bit of time to prepare it
Back to you doctor
This isnt me changing Allah's words or doubting Allah.
Sure, you are just adding to it
This is me simply using the brain that Allah gave me.
Sure, use it to add to Allah words, as if it was not enough
I have the humility to realize that my Creator is Transcendent and Infinite, and that His knowledge surpasses my own and that, for the sake of human understanding,
Well, mate I don?t have philosophical tendencies so you are talking with the wrong person, you may discuss the above with many here who will love your words, I don?t
He has painted the message about certain things in metaphorical terms, in human imagery. This is completely possible. Nay, it is probable. How does one explain the taste of chocolate to one who has never even seen it?
Well, we can say it tastes good
Very clearly, Allah has spoken in metaphorical terms before; I don't see why this is any different.
Because it will conflict with a whole heap of verses
DON?T YOU GET IT OR WHAT BRO?
Does not Allah sit on His Throne (Arsh, 3975)? Is that literal? Is that "real?"
I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
Do you honestly think that Allah (the Creator of the Universe) sits on a physical chair?
I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
I'm sure you don't.
You sound confident but sorry wrong guess because I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
I'm sure you see that as a metaphor for God's power and Sovereignty, just as we all do.
It is possible but I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
Why is this any different? Why does "fire" have to be a physical fire? Why can't "fire" be like that throne that Allah speaks about?
Well the throne for sure is 100% physical, the quran told us that it is carried by 8, this means it is physical however regarding Allah sitting on it or not, I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
Regarding the fire, yes in many location in the Quran Allah told us that it is real, and I care to know about that one because I need to avoid it however for the throne it won?t make a difference to me to know if Allah sits on it or not. So please don?t mix apples with mangos
If you say that Allah does not sit on a physical throne,
I don?t really know that one and I don?t care to know to be honest.
I can respond in kind So you don't think the Throne is "real" ?
Of course it is real because it is carried by 8 as Allah told us
Are you saying Allah lied?
Utter BS
Are you doubting Allah's words? etc. etc.
Utter BS
Why is this any different?
Bro, let?s go back to square one and try to simplify it again, please respond to this only and ignore the all the above
- The argument ?Is Jahhannam a PHYSICAL AND REAL PLACE OR NOT??
- Accepted evidences ?Quran Alone?
Ahmed says, yes it is 100% physical place and I will provide many evidences from the Quran inshaallah to support my claim, I need a bit of time to prepare it
Back to you doctor
Cheers
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Salam.
I think that Arnold wrote a beautiful article but to descibe heaven and Hell ..... well, i have been thinking about this for a while and i think we cannot really even imagine what Heaven or Hell look like until we get there.
I mean, sure, it says we will have all the food, drinks, virgins, peace, nice clothes, tranquility, harmony, friendships in Paradise but we can't imagine that because we haven't experienced it and we can't possibly compare it to this world and it's food, drinks, virgins, peace, nice clothes, tranquility, harmony, friendships.
Also, one can't describe either Heaven or Hell because one hasn't seen them or experienced them. We have descriptions of them in the Qur'an but i think that Heaven and Hell are far beyond human comprehension.
Just like we can't descibe God Almighty to an atheist because we haven't see Him yet. Of course, when we see Him, .... it will be so new experience that i think all this world, what we did, our memory, goals and everything else will seem smaller at that moment.
I do wish to get inside Paradise, i pray for it but only Allah Most High guides whomever He wants to the Right Path. There are people on this Earth who don't want Heaven - and they will get just that.
Allah Most Merciful knows best.
Salam. -
Peace Alen,
Please re-read the whole thread once again.
Also where-ever you read any verse quoted from quran, you must re-confirm it., else you will be beliving on hearsay.
Thereafter quote your views, Ill be looking forward to your post jediSalam
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Peace,
Quote
The verse is clearly a metaphor regarding the vision in this life NOT THE HELL FIRE, so for me to take it literally I have to take it as a metaphor at least for the first part because the first part of being blind on earth doesn?t apply to all the kafirron on earth, but I prefer to take the last part as not a metaphor and they will be blind for real, now please tell me what that has to do with the hell being real or thoughts of mind?The reason I said I prefer to take the last part as real because Allah clearly told us what those blind kafirron will say to Him on the JD after they are raised blind for real
124- And whoever turns away from My reminder, his shall be a straitened life, and We will raise him on the day of resurrection, blind.
125- He will say O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?
(124)
(125)-> The above verse clearly and irrefutably tell us that the first part of 1772 is a metaphor ?Blind on Earth? and the second part is real ?Blind on the JD?, this is obvious from the kafir questioning Allah ? O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)??
This verse doesn't say it is a metaphor.
because the common sense suggest as such unless you consider God talking non sense, in fact the verses after explain to us why they were considered blind metaphorically because they forgot ignored Allah message, clear as light it is a metaphor, so I donlt pick and chose according to my low desires, it is according to the common sense
in addition to the common sense provided in the verses expaling why they will be considered blind, it is clear that not all mishrikoon are physically blind so it has to be a metaphor, on the JD however we can't know because we have not been there yet however Allah clearly told that they will be raised physically blind as we read from the dialoguw between the kuffar and Him, so all the logical evidneces lead to taking the first part as metaohor and the seconad as real
Yes, and my common sense takes Gehenna and Djenna also different. 'common sense' comes from the knowledge and view you have, it depends on your background. My 'common sense' is different then yours. What is 'common sense' to you then? What the majority on earth will accept? Common sense is based on what YOU know and understand. So condemning something based on YOUR common sense has no authority at all accept in YOUR own mind.
But i cannot?
no you can as long as it does not contradict another verse in the Quran
Because YOU believe it contradicts the Quran. I have checked every verse, and it doesn't contradict at all from MY point of view. But we approach verses totaly different as you even believe God has ears and sits on a real throne. You stopped our debate about God being everything as you lost it back then, your view is contradicting the Quran many times also from MY point of view.
Now you have to admit it is a metaphor while it doesn't say it is a metaphor.
of course
This is different from your usual stance
peace bro
yes mate, it is the most safe path is to not to invent any metaphires and associate that cojecture to Allah, because He never said as such, also He always tells us in advance that here is a metaphor, so why following guesses?
my concern is regarding those who say that the story of Moses is a metaphor, or part of it like removing his shoe, well if that ios the case then the fire was a metaphor, his white hand was a metaphor and the snake was a metaphor and all the humans who believe in the Quran are being deceived by their god because all these were metaphores and he never told us a s such but he selected a few other things that are obviously metaphores and told us in advance "here is a metaphor", well the complication is now like this, we can not really know for certain which one is a metaphor if the message is that encrypted
cheers
- Allah said in advance "Here is a parable"
- The verse has enough logic and common sense to conclusively confirm that it is a metaphor
So now you use your 'common sense' to believe it is a metaphor? But you will not allow me to do that as YOUR 'common sense' doesn't accept it and sees contradictions. Remember it is YOUR mind that sees contradictions based on YOUR knowledge and background. So YOU are the judge if something is a metaphor or not based on YOUR 'common sense'? Your 'common sense' is based on what YOU know. Maybe YOU don't know some things which is the reason YOUR 'common sense' doesn't grasp my article.
I remember the valley of tawa debate well, and it was because YOUR common sense didn't see any weirdness in taking of sandals in the middle of a valley. But many people 'common sense' didn't accept it. Where do you take the authority that YOUR 'common sense' is the correct one? You see that this whole debate is about YOU not getting something because YOUR knowledge and background doesn't grasp it. So i'm a kafiroen because YOUR 'common sense' is the judge here. So it is not God who is warning me but it is YOUR 'common sense' that is warning me and believes i'm going to Gehenna. Well you are on very dangerous grounds AB, as YOUR 'common sense' can maybe fall a bit short on certain things.
You interpretated yourself it has to be a metaphor using 20124-125.
and 126 and 127 as well my interpretation does not create any of the zillions of conflicts and non sensible meanings as your interpretation does
Based on YOUR common sense and view, i wouldn't expect anything else then to see my view as such.
NO I donlt get it because your interpretation will create zillions of many conflicts and non sense in the Quran, this will be explained in many of long comments that will be prepared for this thread
It creates contradictions in YOUR mind, not in mine or other people's mind. And you can make a new thread with AB's view of Gehenna and Djenna, from now on i would like to keep this thread for the people who want to discuss the meanings of the verses. AB, how can i discuss with you as you even believe God sits on a real throne? Our views are too different. You think i'm a happy go-go believer, but you don't understand a comma of my article as you don't understand the psychological and philosophical background of my approach. Our common senses lay to far apart. So you want to force your common sense on to me? I have to follow your background information which let you to these conclusions? Your way of determining what is metaphorical when it is not mentioned as such? What is your authority?
This whole debate is about YOU AB, not if it is not in the Quran, but if YOUR mind grasps it or not. So it is not God who judges me, but YOU, YOU don't know for certain if YOUR common sense is good enough to judge my ideas, except in your own mind, how do you know for sure it is also God's point of view? YOUR 'common sense' doesn't accept my article which i respect, but your condemnation is crossing the borders.
Peace
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Yes, and my common sense takes Gehenna and Djenna also different.
Your common sense attributed lies to Allah
My common sense did not
You manipulated the Arabic word using some other languages as well suggesting that Jahannam in the Quran means a valley in some other place on earth, again a clear cut case of deceiving and lying about Allah,
The verse 28 comes really handy in describing those so called Muslims whose actions is anything but submitting to Allah and submitting to what He said clearly in His Quran so they manipulate it to suit their low desires
'common sense' comes from the knowledge and view you have, it depends on your background.
what knowledge do you have in the Arabic language?
If you don?t then please be reasonable mister
I can?t challenge you in your own language neither you can to mine , unfortunately for you the language of the Quran is my native language and you will never be able to challenge in it as I will never be able to challenge in your own language, that is why you needed to resort to Greek language to justify your manipulation to the Arabic language, this is total dishonesty and to be honest U BS, sorry
My 'common sense' is different then yours. What is 'common sense' to you then?
Fine but if you will use your common sense and your ignorance in the Arabic language, then your opponent is not ignorant in the Arabic language that you are trying hard to manipulate using other languages, this is enough to make it easy for me to expose your ignorance with the language which will lead to your ignorance with the Quran especially you are trying to inject new ideas that is on clear conflict with the Quran.
What the majority on earth will accept? Common sense is based on what YOU know and understand.
There is no question that my Arabic knowledge is far better than yours, this is not a show off as many here try hard to portray me along with defaming my language, this is a truthful fact that you need to know how to handle it because I will always be after any non sense of insights if any dare to use the Arabic Quran to justify it, then we leave it to the public.
So condemning something based on YOUR common sense has no authority at all accept in YOUR own mind.
Not really my common sense, I will prove it to the public later on this very post using the Quran alone not my low desires
Because YOU believe it contradicts the Quran.
Come on, just give me a chance and I will prove it inshaallah, relax bro, the showtime has not started yet.
I have checked every verse,
And why you didn?t post your well founded researches?
Don?t worry I will do it for you inshaallah
and it doesn't contradict at all from MY point of view.
Good for you, now I need a chance to state my point of view, I guess your article that earned you a lot of cheers should have all the evidences, right?
But we approach verses totaly different
Of course because you lack Arabic and I don?t
You use other languages to manipulate the Arabic language, and I don?t
You say things about Allah that He never said and I don?t
Therefore yes we are different, that is something I agree with you, I hope today is another happy day
as you even believe God has ears and sits on a real throne.
A clear cut lie, don?t lie or Santa won?t come to you
You stopped our debate about God being everything as you lost it back then,
I don?t debate to win or lose mister, I debate to expose the false, if you think you won, then congratulation, well done
your view is contradicting the Quran many times also from MY point of view.
A clear cut lie, don?t lie or Santa won?t come to you
This is different from your usual stance
peace bro
yes mate, it is the most safe path is to not to invent any metaphires and associate that cojecture to Allah, because He never said as such, also He always tells us in advance that here is a metaphor, so why following guesses?
my concern is regarding those who say that the story of Moses is a metaphor, or part of it like removing his shoe, well if that ios the case then the fire was a metaphor, his white hand was a metaphor and the snake was a metaphor and all the humans who believe in the Quran are being deceived by their god because all these were metaphores and he never told us a s such but he selected a few other things that are obviously metaphores and told us in advance "here is a metaphor", well the complication is now like this, we can not really know for certain which one is a metaphor if the message is that encrypted
cheers
- Allah said in advance "Here is a parable"
- The verse has enough logic and common sense to conclusively confirm that it is a metaphor
trying hard to manipulate again, my stance is exactly the same, look at point 2 above, but I?m glad that I will keep you busy reading my old comments looking for contradictions, I can do this with others and I?m very good at it especially if I will add humour to it, but do you think I?m idiot enough to waste my time doing this childish and schoolie games?
So now you use your 'common sense' to believe it is a metaphor?
I use the Quran context and the facts around me as my common sense, I never invent any thing really, yes I use the clear common sense to prove that it is a metaphor and yes it will be my common sense if you want to call it this way.
But you will not allow me to do that as YOUR 'common sense' doesn't accept it and sees contradictions.
Stop being emotional and give me a chance to bring the verses and we will see what your common sense have to say
Remember it is YOUR mind that sees contradictions based on YOUR knowledge and background.
Sure and also based on the Quran context that ?it can?t have a contradiction?, so give me a bloody chance because I will have a list of contradictions to you that you will need to clear out
So YOU are the judge if something is a metaphor or not based on YOUR 'common sense'?
For my own conclusions, yes, for something between me and you I reckon we need official judges, let?s nominate a few and have a damn serious debate with rules now if you wish.
Your 'common sense' is based on what YOU know.
And one of the things I know well for 40 years is the Arabic language, unfortunately you lack that important part of you want to be a Quran scholar, however I?m not a Quran scholar, I?m out there to expose the false claims people promote using the Quran, it does not matter you are sunni, shia, muslim, christian, jews, hindu, atheist, quran aloner, my brother, my mother, or stranger to me I will still expose your false claims if it is false according to the Arabic Quran
Maybe YOU don't know some things which is the reason YOUR 'common sense' doesn't grasp my article.
I don?t really care about your article, I asked you the question ?Is Jahannam a PHYSICAL PLACE or not?, you said it is a state of mind, this is where I believe I have cornered you, and please don?t confuse the subject, we only need to discuss this point now ?Is Jahannam a PHYSICAL PLACE or not?
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I remember the valley of tawa debate well, and it was because YOUR common sense didn't see any weirdness in taking of sandals in the middle of a valley. But many people 'common sense' didn't accept it.
Well, don?t confuse the subject bro, this is irrelevant to our discussion here however my common sense accepted what Allah said, the others common sense didn?t accept what Allah said and they manipulated it and said it never happened for real, who is the idiot here who have no common sense?
Where do you take the authority that YOUR 'common sense' is the correct one?
I didn?t take any authority from any one neither I have one, I?m using my words only on a public forum and will continue to do as such
You see that this whole debate is about YOU not getting something because YOUR knowledge and background doesn't grasp it.
My knowledge in here is Quran knowledge so if you prove to me that the Quran said the hell is a state of mind then I will grasp it, but for you to do so you need to respond to a list of verses I?m preparing to this thread.
So i'm a kafiroen because YOUR 'common sense' is the judge here.
No, these verse are the judge here
Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed, and sin and rebellion without justice, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against Allah what you do not know.
(33)
Let?s analyse this crystal clear verse just in case it is hard for some
-> The verse starts by telling Mohammad to Say ? Say My Lord has only prohibited?, clearly the word used ?Harram?, i.e. ? prohibited ?, now here is what is Haram as read from this crystal clear verse
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? ?, ? indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed?
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? ?, ? and sin?
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? ?, ? and rebellion without justice?
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? ?, ? and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority?
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? ?, ? and that you say against Allah what you do not know.?
Now please tell me bro, how bloody plain is that?, come on, you bloody claim to have understood the Quran, hmmm, why you don?t understand the above then?, I can?t believe this bro, this is sort of you are trying hard to look smart, ok man before you try to look smart here it is again, what Allah said that is HARAM from 733
- ? ?, ? and that you say against Allah what you do not know.?
Clearly from the above that saying things that we don?t know about Allah is HARAM, in fact it will be following Satan and this is shirk
168- O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.
169- He only enjoins you evil and indecency, and that you may speak against Allah what you do not know.
(16
(169)-> So to say Jahannam is a state of mind while Allah never said that is following ? the footsteps of the Shaitan?, because you followed what he told you to do which is ? that you may speak against Allah what you do not know? and according to the following verse it is clear cut shirk
And Satan will say when the matter is decided "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to invite you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty."
(22)
-> See, when the JD verdict is passed, Iblis will tell whoever he managed to invite ? And Satan will say when the matter is decided It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth (2-169) I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you.?, the fact of the matter is, Satan never had authority on us but a mere invitation ? I had no authority over you except to invite you but ye listened to me?, but he can?t be blamed because he didn?t force them ? then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls.?, in fact is, both will be crying hard at that time ? I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine.?, then he will tell them that their actions was SHIRK ? I reject your former act in associating me with Allah.?
Allah clearly told us that He PREPARED Jahannam for the Kafiroon, i.e. it has to be a PHYSICAL place
And (that) He may punish the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women, and the polytheistic men and the polytheistic women, the entertainers of evil thoughts about Allah. On them is the evil turn, and Allah is wroth with them and has cursed them and prepared hell for them, and evil is the resort.
(6)
-> See ? and has cursed them and prepared hell for them, and evil is the resort?
So it is not God who is warning me but it is YOUR 'common sense' that is warning me and believes i'm going to Gehenna. Well you are on very dangerous grounds AB, as YOUR 'common sense' can maybe fall a bit short on certain things.
Well, Allah has warned you above in the verses I posted and I still have a whole heap of verses to post, please bear with me for long time as I decided to concentrate on this subject to irrefutably expose your Jahannam ignorance
You interpretated yourself it has to be a metaphor using 20124-125.
and 126 and 127 as well my interpretation does not create any of the zillions of conflicts and non sensible meanings as your interpretation does
Haha, nice try but I say you are only assuming, just bloody give me some time to bring more verses and stop crying please, thanks
Based on YOUR common sense and view, i wouldn't expect anything else then to see my view as such.
Good for you and for me, now we need to leave it to the public so they have their own views
It creates contradictions in YOUR mind,
Well, respond to the first contradiction then ? and has cursed them and prepared hell for them, and evil is the resort? (486), I have plenty more, you should worry actually
not in mine or other people's mind.
good for you, but I don?t talk on others mind behalf, do you?
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