A childless future
-
Salam my sister Heart,
Salam Andy,
I'm single at the moment, so I don't have a partner.
peace
Heart
With all respect, perhaps you should rethink again about your plan for childless future. At least, it adds difficulty in finding a partner (finding a God Alone partner has already been difficult) as far as I can tell.
If you're anything like your avatar then I'd be surprised if this remained the case for very long.
Maybe because of her plan for childless future??
-
Peace,
You don't know really if this makes it hard or not. If that is her choice, you are not in the place to mock it a bit(your second comment sounds a bit mocking to me, sorry if ?'m wrong) or judge it. She is smart enough to know it will not make finding a partner that easier.
I myself wouldn't decide this, i would take at least one kid from my own, but i really do respect it. As it is brave to neglect your own instincts and want to take care of children that ain't yours. There are thousands of children in need on this earth, and only because we are such slaves to our instincts of passing on our genes, we rather neglect these needing children. So what heart wants to do is a true Muslim unselfish deed...
I bow to you my lady...
-
Peace Truth,
I see sexuality as being of only one type - reproductive. There is only one reason for sexuality ie. male female dichotomy to exist and that is for the purpose of reproduction. That is the fundamental reason.
Other forms of sexual activity are not reproductive but rather sensual. They take the side effects of sexuality - ie. the feelings of pleasure etc. and exploit those for their own sake. So male female couples who use contraception or surgically disable their reproduction are taking the pleasure of the activity alone; people who masturbate are again divorcing this relationship between pleasure and reproduction; as are homo male-male or female-female couples.
So when people talk about sexuality they are actually talking about sensuality - not reproductive sexuality at all.
If sex is mainly meant for reproduction does it also mean that people are forced to have children? I do think reproduction is one of the main reasons for sex but I don't think we're forced by God into having children. That's still a personal choice people can make. Let alone people who don't have a choice at all and stuggle with infertility.
Consider
227 who violate GOD's covenant after pledging to uphold it, sever what GOD has commanded to be joined, and commit evil. These are the losers.
Allatheena yanqudoona AAahda Allahi min baAAdi meethaqihi wayaqtaAAoona ma amara Allahu bihi an yoosala wayufsidoona fee al-ardi ola-ika humu alkhasiroona
Those who cut or sever what the God has commanded to be joined. So the deliberate separation of pleasure from the underlying reproduction might be understood to fall into this category. Note in the following...
227 Those who break this ratified Bond of Allah and cut asunder the unity of mankind that Allah has commanded them to uphold - into races, colors, sects and regions, and thus lay the foundation of chaos in the Earth, those will be the losers in the long run. (933-34, 9111, 1019, 1320-24, 3128, 836, 1141)
Like you can see everybody has his own interpretation of that verse. Maybe you're to focused in finding an answer that verifies your view/opinion about this subject and you just see what you want to see.
2928 Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination, no one in the world has ever done it before you.
Walootan ith qala liqawmihi innakum lata/toona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena2929 "You practice sex with the men, you cut off the way, and you allow all kinds of vice in your society." The only response from his people was to say, "Bring to us GOD's retribution, if you are truthful."
A-innakum lata/toona alrrijala wataqtaAAoona alssabeela wata/toona fee nadeekumu almunkara fama kana jawaba qawmihi illa an qaloo i/tina biAAathabi Allahi in kunta mina alssadiqeenaBy enjoying the sensual pleasure in a homoerotic fashion these men are obviously not able to reproduce which is hinted to be the raison d'etre for the pleasure. They cut the way of reproduction.
Keep in mind that it's Lot who's talking and not God. God never repeated Lot's words in His own words. So it might be the opinion of Lot and that God is just showing us what Lot thought/said at that time. Lot says in that verse that no one in the world had ever done such thing before, but I don't think that's correct since the Greeks were also wellknown with homosexuality. I'm unsure about this though, since I don't know exactly when Lot said that. Could it be before or after the time the Greeks discovered homosexuality?
However some Dutch translators translated the following wataqtaAAoona alssabeela, as robbery. Robbery by suprising the victims by cutting their paths when they were on the road with their caravans.It is also clear that the God has the role of deciding upon who will be sterile in relationships.
4250 Or, He may have the males and the females marry each other, then render whomever He wills sterile. He is Omniscient, Omnipotent.
That just proves the power of God. It doesn't say that we aren't allowed to decide for ourselfs if we want or don't want to have children.
Just some things for you to consider. All forms of harvesting only the pleasure ie. bald sensuality, are wrong. 2223 shows that the women in a marriage are the 'tilth' or the 'soil for cultivation or receiving seed' and that sexuality with them must be righteous/balanced and follow the underlying principle of reproduction and not be purely for sensuality alone.
Therefore your question of whether you ought to be able to enjoy male-female contact for sensuality alone is shown to be unrighteous. That cutting the way of reproduction completely and deliberately is unrighteous. Balance and righteousness must be kept in mind, and pure sensuality must be shunned.
Well sir, that's your opinion about this matter, which I don't share.
How about infertile people who have sex? Are they also unrighteous? Or is it righteous because it's not their personal choice?Why couldn't you adopt a child without being married if that's what your aim is?
I'm still busy studying, don't have a place on my own and am not ready financially. Those are the main reasons why I can't adopt a child yet.
peace
Heart
-
You don't know really if this makes it hard or not. If that is her choice, you are not in the place to mock it a bit(your second comment sounds a bit mocking to me, sorry if ?'m wrong) or judge it. She is smart enough to know it will not make finding a partner that easier.
You are wrong arnold (I am sorry but I have to clarify) ...I really didn't mean any mocking whatsoever.
-
Salam Andy,
Salam my sister Heart,
Salam Andy,
I'm single at the moment, so I don't have a partner.
peace
Heart
With all respect, perhaps you should rethink again about your plan for childless future. At least, it adds difficulty in finding a partner (finding a God Alone partner has already been difficult) as far as I can tell.
I'm not worried about that. I'm willing and able to live alone, but I don't think God will let me live alone. I trust Him in that.
If you're anything like your avatar then I'd be surprised if this remained the case for very long.
Maybe because of her plan for childless future??
No, it's a personal choice.
peace
Heart
-
Peace,
You don't know really if this makes it hard or not. If that is her choice, you are not in the place to mock it a bit(your second comment sounds a bit mocking to me, sorry if ?'m wrong) or judge it. She is smart enough to know it will not make finding a partner that easier.
I myself wouldn't decide this, i would take at least one kid from my own, but i really do respect it. As it is brave to neglect your own instincts and want to take care of children that ain't yours. There are thousands of children in need on this earth, and only because we are such slaves to our instincts of passing on our genes, we rather neglect these needing children. So what heart wants to do is a true Muslim unselfish deed...
I bow to you my lady...
Peace Ernie,
Thanks for your kind words!
peace
Heart
-
Peace all. I just want to say that those who think sex is for reproductive only purposes,or that sex is mainly for reproductive purposes are being very irresponsible, (by implying no contraception,when contraception could help alleviate poverty.) and also missing out on a lot of fun...... ;D muscle elektro peace handshake bravo rotfl yay group
-
Peace,
And what was the plan?'!? I think
Marriage is meant for MNIFESTATION of a Divine Love between two human beings! All the conditions are pe-set for engagement for creation of A deep love! a complete system of BEING COMPLEMENTARY TO EACH OTHER!
Loyalty, repect, affection,...... of two souls in one.
Sex is one of the most intensifying experiences of humans! By intens experience our faculty of heart (center of experience) sharpens! The lovers of bungee jumping have a keen sense of being able to experience deeply, because they have trained it! Sex elevates our sense of experience, but the EXPERIENCE OF TWO IN ONE. Merging of two souls in one! (Don,t mix the reality with the DIVINE intention).
Reproduction is of course the other function of sex! but no compulsion whatsoever!
We had three childeren and then I got sterlized and if ever want to have a child, certainly an orphan will become the next child! In the very old times, reproduction could have been compulsory to gaurantee the existence and growth of human society, but now there are too many helpless childeren in this world! WE KNOW HOW DELICATELY THE HOLLY QURAN TALKS ABOUT ORPHANS! So if i am allowed to relive my life, i would adopt all childeren! no doubt about it!
Of course having childeren, is the experience of MOTHERHOOD and FATHERHOOD! Our childeren become the opportunity for us to become the Nourisher,................
Elke, About abortion story, of course you made a splendid choice! and thanks for sharing the experience.
-
Salam alpha97,
Peace,
And what was the plan?'!? I think
........................
We had three childeren and then I got sterlized and if ever want to have a child, certainly an orphan will become the next child! In the very old times, reproduction could have been compulsory to gaurantee the existence and growth of human society, but now there are too many helpless childeren in this world! WE KNOW HOW DELICATELY THE HOLLY QURAN TALKS ABOUT ORPHANS! So if i am allowed to relive my life, i would adopt all childeren! no doubt about it!.................................
Getting sterilized is to my undertanding of the Quran extreme and I posted the verses the first time when I replied in this section. I would like just to make a comment on your statement above that people may reflect because human nature tends to take for granted so many things. For those who think they had enough children and proceed with extreme solutions to get rid of their God given fertility, God the All-Mighty may test you by calling back to HIM your children. It happened to a couple, their four children gone in an accident, and they found themselves in a situation they could not start again a new family while this was for them the only way to overcome their tragedy. My point is do not take for granted what you are given and keep thanking the All-Mighty for it.
Peace. Myr -
Peace,
Castration cannot be reversed, sterilation can. Nowadays they can sterilize you in such a way it can be reversed....
-
Peace,
Castration cannot be reversed, sterilation can. Nowadays they can sterilize you in such a way it can be reversed....
Salam Arnolyasin,
What people do not know is that sterilization is "sometimes" reversible and very costly. When it is performed by doctors, it is with the intention that it becomes irreversible and that's why they make all the patiens sign the consent forms. In the case of women, the most used method of tubal ligation is even not recommended as a "temporary" or "reversible" method by doctors. Even the most advanced and approved method so far (at least in the US) is well known to be irreversable see http//www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2002/ANS01168.html
You can browse many many websites and you will find tones of info on the reality of sterilization and maybe if we have some gyno. on this forum, they can confirm. From one of this websites which actually "promote sterilization and birth control", this is what you can read "Approximately 10.3 million women in the U.S. choose the option of sterilization as their method of birth control, (the number one form of birth control for women aged 35-44), a procedure that is sometimes reversible. But ultimately, for those who later change their minds, sterilization is often irreversible. According to a new national study, an alarming amount of women regret their sterilization decision". from http//www.longtermbirthcontrol.com/.
My point is that saying it is "reversible", it is not that reversible. Peace. Myr.
-
Peace,
Yes. i prefer condoms then taking that risk...
-
Salaam sis Myr,
Oh surely, none of the blessings given to us must be taken for granted!
Geting sterlized for me had no sense of (Having no more use for it). but that of becoming eventually aware that there is an other Divine choice! I would say the submitters adopt so much childeren so that there would be no orphan left alone on the face of earth! I am giving a picture of DIVINE SOCIETY! with that ideal in mind, if i become young again with the present mind-set, if agreeable for my partner, i would choose for adoption and i will be thankfull to GOD for granting me that privilage to take care of HIS orphan creatures!
Even though; your point is still valid! and one should contemplate on this deeply before choosing direction!peace,
-
Peace Myr
For those who think they had enough children and proceed with extreme solutions to get rid of their God given fertility, God the All-Mighty may test you by calling back to HIM your children.
Absolutely right. That's why reflexion is necessary before such an extreme step. And if such an awful thing really happened, one has to endure and assume - mostly what life is about anyway.
lk
-
Salaam Myr and all
Having children should never be an excuse to not adopt or take care of the orphans.
I can'y agree more.
I have three grown up chidren and I am sponsoring a child from Africa. My daughter is also sponsoring a child. In fact it was through her that I got in touch with "Plan International".
As for using contraceptives of any kind or even deciding on having an abortion, I do not know of a verse that prohibits that except if it is done for economic reasons (Kill not your children because of poverty, We provide sustenance for you and for them)6151.
I understand "your children" as to mean the unborn, since the born ones fall under the category of (kill not the soul Allah has forbidden except for a just cause) same verse.
-
Salaam all
Sorry for the delayed response (just browsed this topic). Couple of points
Sex for children and not pleasure does not conform to natural state of affairs (even excluding infertile couples). Female fertility is aged limited and women are unable to have children via sex after menopause (when periods naturally stop). I hope no one is sugesting that they should avoid sex.As for vasectomy and sterilisation thay are both reversible although not 100% successful. in good hands just over 60%.
However even without reversal it is still possible to have children via IVF. I hope this clarifies someones earlier query.regards
-
I can't believe my ears when people consider sex to be something "filthy" or "nasty" or whatever you want to call it! We are all grown people I assume and we all know (I hope) that sex is more than just for reproduction and getting rid of lust. Sex is not only that, but it's about sharing your love for each other in a physical way! Come on guys! We people see it as filthy or nasty because that's the way it has been taught us most of the time! I learned that it's not filthy and/or nasty. We don't have to be ashamed of it! Sex is all about SHARING LOVE. IF the end product is the creation of another soul, than that's only a good thing (I hope). D
peace