You Have Been Warned
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Peace all,
Again with Jahannam, Allah clearly described it to us from the point we will be resurrected where the showtime of Jahannam will start, many descriptions indeed
1 ) Its 7 doors and each has its allocated portion of sinners
2 ) Its Keepers and one is named ?Malik?, all the hell keeper are strong and rough with the hell dwellers
3 ) Its dwellers are from the Ins and the Jinn
4 ) The Zaqum Tree and its description
5 ) The shirts made of fire
6 ) The Lave poured on the heads
7 ) The burning skin that being replaced then burn again
8 ) The dialogues between the hell dwellers and its keepers
9 ) The dialogues between the hell dwellers and the Garden dwellers
10 ) The wish of the hell dwellers to die
11 ) The many escape trial they try then they brought back into hell
12 ) The arguments between the hell dwellers and other hell dwellers
13 ) The Garden dwellers looking physically on the some of the hell dwellers that they knew on earth
14 ) The desperation of the hell dwellers for water and for the decrease in punishment
15 ) And many moreHow the hell, the hell can not be a real place and the One Who is telling all the above about it is the one who created it and is our only God?, isn?t His witness enough for those?
JK- Yes these are exactly the points i recall from reading the Quran over and over again. Thats why i wondered why anyone could come up saying heaven and hell are not TWO WORLDS/two environments/two matrices where one fells pain or enjoys. Brohter Arnold as a scientist knows the concept of Occam's Razor. I asked him to apply this on the text as well. People usually do not apply Occam's Razor to scripture which somehow bothers me. I believe even if your brought up in a neutral Arab enviroment , then read the Quran ull understand heaven and hell to be two separate places. Anyone who wants to do a real scientific study can do this with a group of people. Ofcourse one out of 100 may think differently but here we go for the more probable in the end. Testing just one person is obviously not enough. If the oppsoite shows up, id be surprised. GOD Bless!
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Peace "idolfree",
Peace be upon you,
I remember when I was motivated by fear. Thank God that is no longer the case.
JK- The fear for hell is not necessarily meant to be for a believer. Actually this is to give the believers comfort. Dont you fell bad that the bmillionaires and billionaires out there continue to kill, loot and rape because they do not believe in GOD and/or are hypocrites should be punished severely? Dont you think that they should fell the pain? I feel they do and it is only fair if they did. I see these verses both as an encouragement and also to remain on the right path which is a normal reaction. Moreover fear of GOD is emphasized in the Quran. Mankind are rational beings and they do whatever they do because of the consequences which theyd otherwise face be they direct or indirect. If i would be ultimately punished to do a good deed i would never do it, and remember that even good deeds are relative i.e. what we may think to be good is not necessarily so. Scientific experience has lead to a lot of realization of whts good and not. For example long ago it was alright to have sex with sisters. Then the law changed because of the genetic mutations. I had a long discussion on this with bro ARnold at http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/5847/222/ Please read it. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "Ahmed Bahgat",
The flash representation was very nice. However i suggest you add a scene which shows when the people are burned to ashes, how GOD clothes them with new skin. ou mentioned the verse but although i waited for that scene it didnt occur. This is a very important factor and distinguishes this from other punishments. Infact ive never seen any movie showing people being burnt over and over again. Please add that scene. GOD Bless! -
Peace all,
Again with Jahannam, Allah clearly described it to us from the point we will be resurrected where the showtime of Jahannam will start, many descriptions indeed
1 ) Its 7 doors and each has its allocated portion of sinners
2 ) Its Keepers and one is named ?Malik?, all the hell keeper are strong and rough with the hell dwellers
3 ) Its dwellers are from the Ins and the Jinn
4 ) The Zaqum Tree and its description
5 ) The shirts made of fire
6 ) The Lave poured on the heads
7 ) The burning skin that being replaced then burn again
8 ) The dialogues between the hell dwellers and its keepers
9 ) The dialogues between the hell dwellers and the Garden dwellers
10 ) The wish of the hell dwellers to die
11 ) The many escape trial they try then they brought back into hell
12 ) The arguments between the hell dwellers and other hell dwellers
13 ) The Garden dwellers looking physically on the some of the hell dwellers that they knew on earth
14 ) The desperation of the hell dwellers for water and for the decrease in punishment
15 ) And many moreHow the hell, the hell can not be a real place and the One Who is telling all the above about it is the one who created it and is our only God?, isn?t His witness enough for those?
JK- Yes these are exactly the points i recall from reading the Quran over and over again. Thats why i wondered why anyone could come up saying heaven and hell are not TWO WORLDS/two environments/two matrices where one fells pain or enjoys. Brohter Arnold as a scientist knows the concept of Occam's Razor. I asked him to apply this on the text as well. People usually do not apply Occam's Razor to scripture which somehow bothers me. I believe even if your brought up in a neutral Arab enviroment , then read the Quran ull understand heaven and hell to be two separate places. Anyone who wants to do a real scientific study can do this with a group of people. Ofcourse one out of 100 may think differently but here we go for the more probable in the end. Testing just one person is obviously not enough. If the oppsoite shows up, id be surprised. GOD Bless!
Peace,
Trust me bro, i did use Occam's razor more then you know....
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Peace All
Today is our party day, however our party will last for a few days looking at every occurrence of the word ?Mathal? or ?Mithl? in the Quran and we will see for ourselves how the Quran will slam dunk those metaphor activists
Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say What is it that Allah means by this parable He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors,
(26)
-> Above we read that Allah ? is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that?, I have to ask those metaphor activists, Does the gnat exist for REAL?
Slam dunk # 1
Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire but when it had illumined all around him, Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness-- they do not see.
(17)
-> Allah is telling us that dome humans are like another human who is igniting a fire ? Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire?, here is a couple of questions for those metaphor activists ,
a) Those humans Allah is talking about, do they exit for REAL?
b) Does a man igniting a fire exist for REAL?Slam dunk # 2
And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.
(171)
-> Now let me ask the followings
a) Do the Kuffar exist for REAL?
b) Does a human who calls out which hears no more than a call and a cry exist for REAL?
c) Do deaf, dumb (and) blind humans exist for REAL?Slam dunk # 3
The parable of those who spend their property in the way of Allah is as the parable of a grain growing seven ears (with) a hundred grains in every ear; and Allah multiplies for whom He pleases; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing
(261)
-> Questions
a) Do those who spend their property in the way of Allah exist for REAL?
b) Do a grain growing seven ears (with) a hundred grains in every ear exist for REAL?Slam dunk # 4
And the parable of those who spend their property to seek the pleasure of Allah and for the certainty 'of their souls is as the parable of a garden on an elevated ground, upon which heavy rain falls so it brings forth its fruit twofold but if heavy rain does not fall upon it, then light rain (is sufficient); and Allah sees what you do.
(265)
-> Questions
a) Do those who spend their property to seek the pleasure of Allah and for the certainty 'of their souls exist for REAL?
b) Does a garden on an elevated ground, upon which heavy rain falls so it brings forth its fruit twofold but if heavy rain does not fall upon it, then light rain exist for REAL?Slam dunk # 5
Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.
(59)
-> From the Quran perspective, did Isa and Adam exist for REAL?
Slam dunk # 6
176- And if We had pleased, We would certainly have exalted him thereby; but he clung to the earth and followed his low desire, so his parable is as the parable of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue; this is the parable of the people who reject Our communications; therefore relate the narrative that they may reflect.
177- Evil is the likeness of the people who reject Our communications and are unjust to their own souls.
(176)
(177)-> Allah is talking about a bad human and giving us a parable of those bad human, questions
a) Do a bad human and a dog (if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue) exist for REAL? (176)
b) Do the people who reject Allah communications exist for REAL? (176 & 177)Double slams
Slam dunk # 7
Slam dunk # 8The slam dunk party will continue later inshaallah
Slam for now, sorry i mean Salam for now
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Ahmad,
You never responded to my Mathal post in the original thread. Why is that?
All these "slam dunk" examples don't really slam dunk anything. The only thing they show is that in a Mathal, at least one of the things mentioned in the comparison must exist for real. You yourself said this in the other thread.
What have you shown here? Yes, gnats, ears of grain, blind people, etc. exist for real. So what? In a Mathal comparison, at least one (but not necessarily both) sides of the comparison must exist for real. You yourself said this in the other thread
So when Allah makes a Mathal comparing Paradise to a real thing here on earth, it is possible for the Paradise example to not physically exist; BOTH SIDES OF THE COMPARISON DO NOT HAVE TO EXIST; Only one side of the comparison has to exist. Again, you yourself said this.
I don't understand why we keep having this discussion. I mean, it's like discussing 2+2 = 4. It's a fact that the Arabic language allows for various meanings of Mathal.
I know you are a native arabic speaker.
I know you say everyone else confuses issues.
I know you say we are commiting shirk and adding onto Allah's words.
I know you say you're allowed to see things as metaphors whenever YOUR common sense allows for it, but when others try to do the same, the're kuffar.I know all these things.
But none of those things take away from the fact that the Arabic language is not NEARLY as restricted and narrow as you think it is. The language allows for it.
Peace.
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Ahmad,
You never responded to my Mathal post in the original thread. Why is that?
All these "slam dunk" examples don't really slam dunk anything. The only thing they show is that in a Mathal, at least one of the things mentioned in the comparison must exist for real. You yourself said this in the other thread.
What have you shown here? Yes, gnats, ears of grain, blind people, etc. exist for real. So what? In a Mathal comparison, at least one (but not necessarily both) sides of the comparison must exist for real. You yourself said this in the other thread
So when Allah makes a Mathal comparing Paradise to a real thing here on earth, it is possible for the Paradise example to not physically exist; BOTH SIDES OF THE COMPARISON DO NOT HAVE TO EXIST; Only one side of the comparison has to exist. Again, you yourself said this.
I don't understand why we keep having this discussion. I mean, it's like discussing 2+2 = 4. It's a fact that the Arabic language allows for various meanings of Mathal.
I know you are a native arabic speaker.
I know you say everyone else confuses issues.
I know you say we are commiting shirk and adding onto Allah's words.
I know you say you're allowed to see things as metaphors whenever YOUR common sense allows for it, but when others try to do the same, the're kuffar.I know all these things.
But none of those things take away from the fact that the Arabic language is not NEARLY as restricted and narrow as you think it is. The language allows for it.
Peace.
Salam bro
all these slam dunks will show that both parties are real
so i will retreat my statement to you before that with a quranic metaphor at least one of the parties must be real, now I say both parties must be real according to the quran context not according to any poet you know
and that is what I will show
I think we have about 35 slam dunks to go through
Thank you
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Let's make it easy doctor
can you define a metaphor in simple terms to me?
cheers
-
Peace
I wish to forcefully intrude here.
An example or parable are used to clarify or represent an event.
If the example is real, the event will have to be real.
What is the point of representing an event that will not exist?, Unless you are a scifi/fantasy writer.
The Quran is not a book of riddles.
OK, let us follow your argument- There is no real paradise
- There is no real Hell
- There is no real resurrection
- There is no God
It is all allegorical, we just die, and that is all...
After all, Philosophers like Hegel said that there is no need for God anymore, because of the triumph of Human Reason, God is Dead, and Man is now God.
So make up your stories as you wish.
Ahmed and me, and other God conscious people take what Allah says in the Quran very seriously, without filters, pre-judgments or cultural bias. This is what serving Allah means.
It is but a warning to Mankind.
Noble
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Ahmad,
You never responded to my Mathal post in the original thread. Why is that?
All these "slam dunk" examples don't really slam dunk anything. The only thing they show is that in a Mathal, at least one of the things mentioned in the comparison must exist for real. You yourself said this in the other thread.
What have you shown here? Yes, gnats, ears of grain, blind people, etc. exist for real. So what? In a Mathal comparison, at least one (but not necessarily both) sides of the comparison must exist for real. You yourself said this in the other thread
So when Allah makes a Mathal comparing Paradise to a real thing here on earth, it is possible for the Paradise example to not physically exist; BOTH SIDES OF THE COMPARISON DO NOT HAVE TO EXIST; Only one side of the comparison has to exist. Again, you yourself said this.
I don't understand why we keep having this discussion. I mean, it's like discussing 2+2 = 4. It's a fact that the Arabic language allows for various meanings of Mathal.
I know you are a native arabic speaker.
I know you say everyone else confuses issues.
I know you say we are commiting shirk and adding onto Allah's words.
I know you say you're allowed to see things as metaphors whenever YOUR common sense allows for it, but when others try to do the same, the're kuffar.I know all these things.
But none of those things take away from the fact that the Arabic language is not NEARLY as restricted and narrow as you think it is. The language allows for it.
Peace.
Salam bro
all these slam dunks will show that both parties are real
so i will retreat my statement to you before that with a quranic metaphor at least one of the parties must be real, now I say both parties must be real according to the quran context not according to any poet you know
and that is what I will show
I think we have about 35 slam dunks to go through
Thank you
I'm sorry? You're going to retract your statement from before? This doesn't have anything to do with the Qur'an. Don't get the issues "confused." This is pure language. You yourself admitted that only one of the things in the Mathal must be real.
Now you are changing that? Why? Because I made a statement that you cannot defeat?
Who is lying now? Who is being "clever"?
You cannot retract your statement. It doesn't even matter what you retract or dont retract. Sorry. This is a fact of the language. Accept it.
Stop thinking about judging everyone and calling everyone a kafir/mushrik for just one second and try to listen to what the person is saying.
I'm getting sick and tired of the rampant isolation and judgment on this board.
Fact. You are not God, so leave all the judgment to Him. By labelling anyone you disagree with as kuffar/mushrik, you are trying to steal God's authority and claim it for your own.
Fact. You are not the end-all be-all of all things Qur'anic.
Fact. You are not the only one who can decide what is "common sense" while calling others who do the same Kuffar. -
Let's make it easy doctor
can you define a metaphor in simple terms to me?
cheers
Metaphor too has many meanings.
Here's a good one n a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity
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Peace all,
Here's a thought
Is a lifetime of causing suffering = to an eternity of enduring suffering?
Peace Tay
Well, Allah told us the following
You die a disbeliever = an eternity of enduring suffering
I can't see "lifetime of causing suffering" you used fit in what Allah told us above
cheers
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Peace
I wish to forcefully intrude here.
An example or parable are used to clarify or represent an event.
If the example is real, the event will have to be real.
What is the point of representing an event that will not exist?, Unless you are a scifi/fantasy writer.
The Quran is not a book of riddles.
OK, let us follow your argument- There is no real paradise
- There is no real Hell
- There is no real resurrection
- There is no God
It is all allegorical, we just die, and that is all...
After all, Philosophers like Hegel said that there is no need for God anymore, because of the triumph of Human Reason, God is Dead, and Man is now God.
So make up your stories as you wish.
Ahmed and me, and other God conscious people take what Allah says in the Quran very seriously, without filters, pre-judgments or cultural bias. This is what serving Allah means.
It is but a warning to Mankind.
Noble
I'm sorry, who are you again? I've never spoken to you so you really can't follow say that you're following my argument.
If you're referring to an argument made on the other thread, you've completely misrepresented it.
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I never said the Qur'an is a book of riddles. Stop attacking straw men here. And don't misrepresent me.
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Read this one carefully cause you and Ahmed don't seem to understand this EXCEEDINGLY simple point. Here, I'll put it in bold for you
I never said Paradise isnt real. Please show me where I have.
I never said Hell isnt real. Please show me where I have.
I never said resurrection isn't real. Please show me where I have.
I sure as hell never said God isn't real. Please show me where I have.I never said those things werent real. I simply said "real" doesn't have to mean "physical." Do you see the amazingly simple difference? Or are you choosing to be blind to it?
You people seem to think that just cause I'm saying something isnt physical, it's not real. That is not logically always the case. Why do you think Im' saying Hell will just be peaches and cream? It will be torture; it will be misery; it will be the worst thing imaginable. I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything here. I'm not trying to lie and doubt Allah's words.
Are thoughts real? Answer please.
Are feelings real? Answer please
Are emotions real? Answer please
Are laws of the universe real? Answer please.^ These above things are not PHYSICAL (i.e. you can't reach out and touch them) and yet they are VERY REAL.
So again, I repeat, I NEVER SAID HELL/HEAVEN/GOD/RESURRECTION ARENT REAL. They are VERY real.
I am not making up any stories. You are attributing lies to me.
And I take the Qur'an VERY seriously. I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of not doing so, without even knowing me or what I've said.
You said you, Ahmed, and other God-conscious people. So you're trying to imply I'm not God-conscious? Again, how do you know this? Stop trying to usurp God's authority and pass judgment on others. Got it?
And finally, you so haughtily claim that you interpret the Qur'an without any filters, pre-judgments, and cultural biases? Please. That's IMPOSSIBLE to do. Any human reading the Qur'an will have at least some bias. Stop acting like you guys are above it all. Everyone comes to a text with their own preconceptions, including me.
I'm just sick and tired of this vitriol that so many people on here spew out of their mouths daily misrepresenation, straw men, straight lies, and judgment.
I'm really thinking about taking a brief hiatus from this board. It's really becoming too negative and just utterly devoid of logic. I don't normally get this worked up but you people are just going too far with your lies and misrepresentations.
"Peace."
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Peace Caveman,
I would be saddened to lose another bright mind on this forum. If you need to take a break, then please only take a break from discussing with the individuals that are currently representing this negativity. Ahmed has admitted that he's not here to learn but he's here on a crusade to defeat what he(or his profiler) terms as the enemies of islam. That should speak volumes.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Bro
Why do you take things so personally, I was talking about those who deny Allah's message.
The fact is all you talked about, thought, feelings etc all are accounted for by physical phenomenon. Where does it start and where does it end.
So stop being worked up, I did not accuse you of anything.
What is real has to have a physical base in our universe. Now if you are saying that for now Paradise and Hell are not yet physical for us, I will agree. But they will sure be physical after JD, and as physical as portrayed in the Quran, albeit the words and examples used are using terminologies that refer to what we can understand.
Again I must stress that I had to let go of many many biases and filters before accepting the Message, and it was never easy. Let alone being called a Kafir by sunnis and shias (one even told me that my blood was halal), and fundamentalist by others.
Yes maybe you need a vacation.
So what does physical mean to you then?
Anyways I was not rersponding to your post in particular.
Being haughty is not a mark of a believer so far from me to be this way.
God speed
Noble -
I'm sorry? You're going to retract your statement from before?
Bro
I was clear
Here it is again, no one will give an example of something UNLESS both sides are real for the one who is saying it however for the other one who is receiving it, one party MUST be known and that is why it was used to describe a party that is unknown, however even with the person hearing the metaphor I found in all cases in the Quran both parties are real
This is what a metaphor means for me and this is how the Quran used it all along
This doesn't have anything to do with the Qur'an. Don't get the issues "confused." This is pure language. You yourself admitted that only one of the things in the Mathal must be real.
Now you acting unreasonably, I retreated my statement and explained above what a metaphor means, are you gonna keep repeating my first wrong statement?
Now you are changing that? Why? Because I made a statement that you cannot defeat?
I?m not defeating your statements, I care less to do that, but what I care abot is to see the Arabic quran defeating and slam dunking your statements, now I?m backing up using the Quran why I had to retreat my statement
Who is lying now? Who is being "clever"?
I?m not a liar but I may be clever
You cannot retract your statement
LOL, no I can, any time I wish, now it?s getting funny
. It doesn't even matter what you retract or dont retract. Sorry. This is a fact of the language. Accept it.
Now it is not a fact of language, it is a fact of the Quran that in all metaphors used both parties are REAL
Stop thinking about judging everyone and calling everyone a kafir/mushrik for just one second and try to listen to what the person is saying.
It is not like I call it to everyone every hour, look if you see something I say that you think makes me Kafir or Mushrik, please bring it to my attention, I will appreciate your cooperation
I'm getting sick and tired of the rampant isolation and judgment on this board.
Stop crying please bro, I try always to do that when I cry
It is not like I have to accept what you say for you to stop
Fact. You are not God, so leave all the judgment to Him. By labelling anyone you disagree with as kuffar/mushrik, you are trying to steal God's authority and claim it for your own.
silly try by you doctor, unfortunately labelling others can not be judgment, I label others according what they say against Allah using His words, and this is a duty on anyone who submitted to Him
Fact. You are not the end-all be-all of all things Qur'anic.
LOL, what are you trying to say exactly doctor?
Look doc, I have every right to state my opinion, at least I back it up using the Quran unlike those who back their non sense and blasphemy using some freak philosophers
Fact. You are not the only one who can decide what is "common sense" while calling others who do the same Kuffar.
again doc, what are you tryin to say exactly?, hmmmm,, I never claimed the above
I think you need a Valum pill doctor, that is easy for you to get, but only one please don?t take many
cheers
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Peace Ahmed,
OK then...
Is a lifetime of being a disbeliever = an eternity of suffering?
Yes, that is what Allah told us exactly in the Quran HOWEVER and this is BIG however, He reserved His right to remove those from Hell, anytime He wishes
would you like to see the verses?
Cheers