IS THE MULTI-FAITH CONCEPT COMPATIBLE WITH ISLAMIC VALUES?

[Al_Khidr]

Wa Laykum As Salaam Alpha

I want to thank you for your insight on this subject. I just want to make some brief comments to your post. You have said this

?I have christian friends who through our exchnge of ideas have come to get acquainted with HIS ALMIGHTY! They fully understand that this big change in their life is GRANTED TO THEM and read their books with a different eye!?

I just want to say that it?s a great thing if you are able to get them (your Christians) friends to look at the Creator in a different light because I assume that different light is closer to the Islaamic concept of tawhiyd. Part of our goal in life dawah and we will receive many blessings from Allah if we part take in spreading Deen of Allah. Since Allah have said that the only religion is Islaam (319, 85), we should always make a constant effort to awaken people of different religions to the truth of Al Islaam.

You have highlighted the following verses ?Look into 2-2/2-3 for conditions of guidance!? In actuality Qur?aan 21-4, address what a Muslim is

Sura 2

1. Alif Laam Miim

2. This scripture is infallible; It?s a guidance to the select, who tremble at the mention of Allah.

3. Those who believe in the unseen, even when alone in their privacy, observe the Salaat, and from Our provisions to them, they share willingly.

4. And they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you. With regard to the Hereafter, they are certain.

Verse 2 is addressing the Qur?aan as being an infallible Book from the Creator and also in verse 4, when it says, ?And they believe in what was revealed to you? it is referring to the Qur?aan. This is a beautiful verse Alpha that you have highlighted and it tells you in a nutshell what a Muslim is and verse 5 says

?These are the ones who follow the guidance from their Lord; these are the successful ones.?

Praise be to Allah.

You have said this

?A chinese who has never heard of Quran and lives a rightouse life will be guided. We are all created equal.?

There is no dispute when it comes to that because it would be unjust for Allah to judge some one on the merits of the Qur?aan if they never heard of the Qur?aan before and if that person have lead a righteous life they will make it to Paradise. They will make it to Paradise not becauase their religion is true but because they have lead a righteous/pious life.

You have also said this

?NO NEED TO MAGNIFY THE DIFFERENCES! MAGNIFY THE ALMIGHTY in words and actions! 100% and fully.?

We do not want to keep people stuck in the middle, we want people to be on the far right of truth Al Islaam, so in order for this to take place we do need to highlight the differences. We need to address the differences, all information, truth and falsehood, etc. etc. to awaken the mind to the truth, this is our duty as a Muslim. Alhamdulillah that Allah did not leave us (Muslims) blind as to which is the true faith or religion

Qur?aan 319
The only religion approved by Allah is Islaam. Those who received the scripture dispute this fact, knowingly. This is due to jealousy on their part. For those who reject Allah?s revelations, Allah is most strict in reckoning.

Qur?aan 385
Anyone who accepts other than Islaam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter, he will be with the losers.

Qur?aan 4213-14
13. He has prescribed for you the SAME religion, which He decreed on Noah, and what We have sent by inspiration to you, and what We decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus ?You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it.? The idol worshippers will resent what you invite them to do. Allah redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself everyone who submits in peace.
14. Ironically, they broke up into sects-only after the knowledge had come to them-due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Sustainer to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, these later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts.

Since we have been blessed from Allah to know in the greatest Book on the planet QURAAN, that it is Islaam which is the true faith or religion on the planet, then we should make it a constant effort on our behalf to bring the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist, just to name a few in the folds of Islaam.

Salaam

Peace Alkhidr , sis Zainab, No-Shirk,

Thank you for your writings. I like this way of discussion. civilizationlevel -for the lack of a better word- of discussion is high!
let?s set an example! as we are supposed to.

When the conditions to be guided are not met, there will be no guidance!

Quran en scriptures and nothing else can not be a source of guidance UNLESS FIRST couples of conditions come to exist!

These are conditions of SOUL.
FIRST COMES A MOVEMENT WITHIN OUR SOUL BY OUR DOING, THEN COMES A MOVEMENT WITHIN OUR SOUL AND HEART BY THE DOING OF HIS MAJESTY! One comes to experience everthing from a different vantage point.

I have christian friends who through our exchnge of ideas have come to get acquainted with HIS ALMIGHTY! They fully understand that this big change in their life is GRANTED TO THEM and read their books with a different eye!

A chinese who has never heard of Quran and lives a rightouse life will be guided. We are all created equal. THE DIVINE LIGHT IS WAITING TO GUIDE US! NO NEED TO MAGNIFY THE DIFFERENCES! MAGNIFY THE ALMIGHTY in words and actions! 100% and fully.
Look into 2-2/2-3 for conditions of guidance!

peace,

12. It is upon Us to guide.
13. And to Us is the end and the beginning.

[lovelymoslems]

Allah was never revealing "religion" but deen, Islam is a deen for believers who aim his live only to surender to His deen.

[alpha97]

Peace Al Khidr,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

May GOD make our discussions more fruitful!

I would like to use this opportunity on two points.

One is my take on 2-2 / 2-3 and the second one is THE BIG DIFFEENCE between faith and belief

(2-3) Those who
1- Attain Faith in the unseen
2- By performing salaat ( programming of soul ? Spiritual growth).
3- By filling the gaps of society ( practice for soul ? Spiritual growth).

They will become the ones who can penetrate the meaning of Quran! Their vantage points are shifted upward! Not by themselves! THE ALIMIGHTY manifests that change .

There is no doubt about their guidance (2-2). They are now able to penetrate the guidance of Quran.

Faith does not have anything to do with believing or not believing!

The thought has to pass the corridor of MIND and penetrate the HEART! Then it is faith. And that level will be only achieved by step 2 and 3 as Quran outlines.

Wise said
You can?t know what faith is; what you call faith is only belief. Belief is of the head, it is part of
knowledge. Belief is false and phoney. Belief means somebody else has said something and you have believed it; it is borrowed. Belief is never original. Faith is always original. It arises in you it is the growth of your own consciousness.

That?s how there are so many Mohammedans and Hindus and Christians and Jews, but you don?t find religious people anywhere. Religious people have disappeared from the earth. Yes, Christians are there, Hindus are there, but where are the religious people?
Religion consists of faith, not of belief. Behind the belief there is always doubt. Belief is rooted in doubt. It is because of the doubt, it is to repress the doubt, that you put a belief upon yourself. It is as if you hide a wound behind a roseflower, but the wound remains there.

Just on the surface, things appear in one way. Deep down it is totally different. On the surface, people show trust and confidence in each other. Deep down, there is doubt. On the surface, love; deep down, there is hatred. On the surface, people are so nice; deep down, they are really bitter and poisonous. This duality has to be dropped. Faith arises only when you have become one. Faith is the fragrance of oneness.

If a person can remain silent for a few hours every day he will become aware of his whole phoniness, because he will see his real face again and again. If you continuously talk and continuously relate with people you forget your original face, because you have to wear masks continuously. For twentyfour hours you are talking, using words. And when you continuously use words, slowly slowly you start believing in those words, in the sound of those words.

Words have a hypnotic power. If you use a certain word again and again, it hypnotizes you. If you use the word ?god? again and again, slowly slowly you start thinking that you know what you mean, that you know what God is. It is very dangerous to repeat words.
But people go on talking. They don?t give any gap in which they can simply be silent and be.
If you are silent for at least one hour every day, you will be aware continuously that your talk is nonsense.

And then ninety-nine percent of your talk will start disappearing. What is the point of
talking nonsense? But why do people talk then? They talk just to hide themselves behind the noise. Whenever you are nervous you start talking.

Now it is a known fact if people are forced to live in solitude, after three weeks they start talking to themselves. They cannot bear silence, it becomes intolerable, so they start talking to themselves. They have to talk; words somehow keep them clinging to their personality. Once words disappear, they start falling into the impersonal. And they are very much afraid of the impersonal.

The impersonal is your reality. And you are afraid of the reality and you are clinging to the illusions that words create. People are satisfied with mere words; they are rags. Sanai says It is unbelievable. How are you satisfied with mere rags? You were made to work your way through this darkness of existence.

This is a task to be done, this is a way of growth. To be here on the earth simply means that God has given an opportunity to you to grow. This earth is a challenge. Accept the challenge, encounter life don?t escape.
A few people escape in words, a few people escape into monasteries, a few people escape into politics, a few people escape into money ? these are all escapes. A few become learned people, a few become rich, a few become very powerful in the world, a few become very respectable, moral and virtuous. But the real work is not done..............................).

peace,

[Al_Khidr]

As Salaamu Alaykum Brother Alpha

You have said this

?where are the religious people??

Alpha from your perspective who are these religious people you raise this question about?

Also you have quoted and said "wise said", who is this person that you quoted?

You have said this

?Religion consists of faith, not of belief. Behind the belief there is always doubt. Belief is rooted in doubt. It is because of the doubt, it is to repress the doubt, that you put a belief upon yourself. It is as if you hide a wound behind a roseflower, but the wound remains there.?

I think you are getting into semantics here. Iman is the Arabic word and that word can either be translated as ?belief? or ?faith? and if one chooses to translate Iman as ?belief? then the English word ?belief? does not possess the connotations from which you have mentioned up above. In one of my responses to you I have illustrated using Qur?aan that our Iman is not a blind, rather Allah wants us to search for truth, knowledge, evidence, etc. etc. Iman is an intelligent faith or belief where something is proven beyond doubt.

Qur?aan 1736
You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

Qur?aan 3918
They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom Allah has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

In Qur?aan 2111 addresses the Jews and Christians when they make this foolish claim that they are the only ones who will enter Paradise and Allah tells us in the Holy Qur?aan to ask them to show/bring/produce their proof

Qur?aan 2111
They said, ?No one will enter Paradise unless they be a Jew or a Christian!? Such is their wishful thinking. Say, ?Show us your proof, if you are truthfull.?

Allah also gives us Muslims the GREEN light to DEBATE in (16125). Debate is a format which civilized people use to address their differences. In Debate falsehood and truth clash, thus, this is a process that we take in order for truth to shine by presenting evidence to refute falsehood. Blind faith has no life in this process

Qur?aan 1781
And say ?Truth has (now) arrived, and falsehood perished for falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish,?

Whether you want to use the English word ?faith? or ?belief?, if that person does not search to ?prove?, then it is blind no matter if you use the English word ?faith? or ?belief?. As we all know Allah does not want us to exist in darkness or simply put

Qur?aan 218
Deaf, dumb, and blind; they fail to return.

This is relative truth right here

?Just on the surface, things appear in one way. Deep down it is totally different. On the surface, people show trust and confidence in each other. Deep down, there is doubt. On the surface, love; deep down, there is hatred. On the surface, people are so nice; deep down, they are really bitter and poisonous. This duality has to be dropped. Faith arises only when you have become one. Faith is the fragrance of oneness.

If a person can remain silent for a few hours every day he will become aware of his whole phoniness, because he will see his real face again and again. If you continuously talk and continuously relate with people you forget your original face, because you have to wear masks continuously. For twentyfour hours you are talking, using words. And when you continuously use words, slowly slowly you start believing in those words, in the sound of those words."

Now Alpha I would like to ask you this question. Are you the type of person who believes that there are many true religions stemming from the same Divine Source (Allah) or is there just only ONE that Allah called Islaam?

Salaam

Peace Al Khidr,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

May GOD make our discussions more fruitful!

I would like to use this opportunity on two points.

One is my take on 2-2 / 2-3 and the second one is THE BIG DIFFEENCE between faith and belief

(2-3) Those who
1- Attain Faith in the unseen
2- By performing salaat ( programming of soul ? Spiritual growth).
3- By filling the gaps of society ( practice for soul ? Spiritual growth).

They will become the ones who can penetrate the meaning of Quran! Their vantage points are shifted upward! Not by themselves! THE ALIMIGHTY manifests that change .

There is no doubt about their guidance (2-2). They are now able to penetrate the guidance of Quran.

Faith does not have anything to do with believing or not believing!

The thought has to pass the corridor of MIND and penetrate the HEART! Then it is faith. And that level will be only achieved by step 2 and 3 as Quran outlines.

Wise said
You can?t know what faith is; what you call faith is only belief. Belief is of the head, it is part of
knowledge. Belief is false and phoney. Belief means somebody else has said something and you have believed it; it is borrowed. Belief is never original. Faith is always original. It arises in you it is the growth of your own consciousness.

That?s how there are so many Mohammedans and Hindus and Christians and Jews, but you don?t find religious people anywhere. Religious people have disappeared from the earth. Yes, Christians are there, Hindus are there, but where are the religious people?
Religion consists of faith, not of belief. Behind the belief there is always doubt. Belief is rooted in doubt. It is because of the doubt, it is to repress the doubt, that you put a belief upon yourself. It is as if you hide a wound behind a roseflower, but the wound remains there.

Just on the surface, things appear in one way. Deep down it is totally different. On the surface, people show trust and confidence in each other. Deep down, there is doubt. On the surface, love; deep down, there is hatred. On the surface, people are so nice; deep down, they are really bitter and poisonous. This duality has to be dropped. Faith arises only when you have become one. Faith is the fragrance of oneness.

If a person can remain silent for a few hours every day he will become aware of his whole phoniness, because he will see his real face again and again. If you continuously talk and continuously relate with people you forget your original face, because you have to wear masks continuously. For twentyfour hours you are talking, using words. And when you continuously use words, slowly slowly you start believing in those words, in the sound of those words.

Words have a hypnotic power. If you use a certain word again and again, it hypnotizes you. If you use the word ?god? again and again, slowly slowly you start thinking that you know what you mean, that you know what God is. It is very dangerous to repeat words.
But people go on talking. They don?t give any gap in which they can simply be silent and be.
If you are silent for at least one hour every day, you will be aware continuously that your talk is nonsense.

And then ninety-nine percent of your talk will start disappearing. What is the point of
talking nonsense? But why do people talk then? They talk just to hide themselves behind the noise. Whenever you are nervous you start talking.

Now it is a known fact if people are forced to live in solitude, after three weeks they start talking to themselves. They cannot bear silence, it becomes intolerable, so they start talking to themselves. They have to talk; words somehow keep them clinging to their personality. Once words disappear, they start falling into the impersonal. And they are very much afraid of the impersonal.

The impersonal is your reality. And you are afraid of the reality and you are clinging to the illusions that words create. People are satisfied with mere words; they are rags. Sanai says It is unbelievable. How are you satisfied with mere rags? You were made to work your way through this darkness of existence.

This is a task to be done, this is a way of growth. To be here on the earth simply means that God has given an opportunity to you to grow. This earth is a challenge. Accept the challenge, encounter life don?t escape.
A few people escape in words, a few people escape into monasteries, a few people escape into politics, a few people escape into money ? these are all escapes. A few become learned people, a few become rich, a few become very powerful in the world, a few become very respectable, moral and virtuous. But the real work is not done..............................).

peace,

[alpha97]

As Salaamu Alaykum Brother Alpha

Peace and serenity upon you brother al Khidr

Alpha from your perspective who are these religious people you raise this question about?

Straight people. Those whose hearts are touched by GOD and not the followers of the establishments!
They are busy with betterment of humanity and charity! Not the ones sitting in school studying religious knowledge.

who is this person that you quoted?
. That does not matter, If we agree with him whoever he might be and if we disagree whoever he is.
In reality an awakened heart filters things out. Hears what is right and expels what is wrong!

I am not inviting anyone to blind faith.
I invite to THE ONE WHOSE SIGNS ARE ALL OVER THE CREATION!

The greatest book of all is the THE BOOK of creation . BUT THAT BOOK ALSO CAN NOT GUIDE UNLESS ONE GETS STRAIGHT FROM INSIDE FIRST.
If that level is NOT reached (Level of 2-3) then there is no source that can help!

Now Alpha I would like to ask you this question. Are you the type of person who believes that there are many true religions stemming from the same Divine Source (Allah) or is there just only ONE that Allah called Islaam?

IF ONE FIRST ATTENDS HER OWN SOUL, THEN THE ALMIGHTY HAS TAKEN CARE OF THE REST THAT YOU WILL BE PRESENTED WITH MANY MANY SOURCES OF GUIDANCE!

AND IF NOT, THERE IS NONE AVAILABLE! YOU WILL STAY IN YOUR OWN WORLDLY BOX!

Salaam

[Alen]

Salam.

I have to say that brother Al-Khidr is right here, i agree with him completely. We are given eyes, sound, brains and we have to use it and we will be responsible for it.

We also cannot follow the "wise person" that we know nothing about. I mean, no offence, but who is he, what is his name, where or when did he live, is he still alive, is he following Qur'an alone?

Al-Khidr is definetely right about this.
Brother Alpha, trust me, brother Al-Khidr is right on this issue and has my full support on it, i am right behind him.

We can not talk for ours and i have tried that many times, as i am writer and quiet for most of the time, lietrally, but when i speak, i speak to ALL people i encounter the same. Of course not 100% the same because some people have different sense of humour or don't like to talk about certain things.

For example with one friend from school, i can joke about the two of us getting married and we'll both laugh about it but to my neighbor if i said anything close to that, she would understand it as an attack and oppression because my friend from school is part muslim, part catholic and my neighbor is a Serb.

But, nevertheless, i can talk to both as one person an all three of us have common interests and issues that we can talk. I see hello the same to both of them in the same matter, i offer the help in English to both of them in the same way and i know that there's nothing phony about that.

I don't wear masks, i am trying to act the same with everyone, but everyone has a little different personality and some people don't get you so you have to "change" a little bit without changing your core, your sole, your faith, your belief, yourself, your oneness.

No offence, people.
May Allah Most Wise rewards us all with Paradise.
Salam.

[alpha97]

Peace Alen,

THAT IS THE POINT Alen!
I do not believe not in you, not in Al Khidr, Not in wise man.

First attain faith in creator by purifying your soul, then you will see that Alen, Alkhidr and wise man and the whole creation will become your sources of guidance!
THERE IS AN ABOUNDANCE OF GUIDANCE IN THIS WORLD, BUT HIDDEN FROM THE EYE OF MAN! TILL GOD OPENS YOUR VISION UNTO IT! and for that privilage you need a straight soul! NOTHING ELSE HELPS!

reflect on this!

peace,

[Al_Khidr]

As Salaamu Alaykum Alpha and Alen

First I want to thank you Alen for the information that you have provided here and the things that you have pointed out.

Alpha, Alen and I have asked you about this quote that you identified as a wise. I thought it was comedy that you want to conceal the identity or person behind that quote. An approach llike that makes the source suspect. There must be something wrong with that source (quote that you used who you said was wise). Below is what you have said when I or we asked who is this mysterious wise?

?That does not matter, If we agree with him whoever he might be and if we disagree whoever he is. In reality an awakened heart filters things out. Hears what is right and expels what is wrong!?

See Alpha you are dealing with Muslims who do not recognize blind faith, so information like that would be very much important (for a lot of reasons) why we and others would like to know the name of that mysterious persons whom you quote and identify as wise. How do we know he is not a Jinn? Shaytaan will say things that is truth and sounds very logical because such attempted would be designed to win the confidence of YOU (plural) and after he (Shaytaan) wins our confidence then he will introduce falsehood to take us of the straight path, so the person behind anything is very important.

Alpha are you into Sufism?

I notice that you have a way of talk that is mystical. You talk in a mystical way that goes around in circles with no continuity, no end. We Muslims are into mathematics/facts/evidence/logic/reasoning as Allah wants us to be (1736; 3918; 2111; 16125)

When you said, ?The greatest book of all is the Book of creation?, I hope that you meant the Qur?aan and if not which book are you referring to?

?The greatest book of all is the THE BOOK of creation . BUT THAT BOOK ALSO CAN NOT GUIDE UNLESS ONE GETS STRAIGHT FROM INSIDE FIRST."

When you said this

?IF ONE FIRST ATTENDS HER OWN SOUL, THEN THE ALMIGHTY HAS TAKEN CARE OF THE REST THAT YOU WILL BE PRESENTED WITH MANY MANY SOURCES OF GUIDANCE!?

I hope that many many source of guidance that you are talking about is Islaam?

Alpha why didn?t you answer my question when I asked you if you believe that all religions stems from the same Divine Source (Allah) or that you believe that Allah only revealed one religion or way of life called Islaam, which is the subject of this thread?

Salaam

[phoenix1]

Peace
Islam is not a religion.
And the Quran makes it clear that no matter what group/label you belong to, as long as you do good things you are a believer.
peace

[Al_Khidr]

As Salaamu Alaykum massive online terrist or I meant to say phoenix1

I have come to realize that you are not a critical reader. You points below have already been answered in this thread. In my last quote I have said

Alpha why didn?t you answer my question when I asked you if you believe that all religions stems from the same Divine Source (Allah) or that you believe that Allah only revealed one religion or way of life called Islaam, which is the subject of this thread?

Notice I said "religion or way of life". You are not saying anything no body knows.

Notice you also said

"no matter what group/label you belong to, as long as you do good things you are a believer."

Again this point has been answered in this thread. Alpha one has used a Chinese as an example and said if that person has not came across the Qur'aan he still can make it to Paradise. I told him that I agree, if he was not exposed to the Qur'aan and lived a righteous life he will make it to Paradise. But this is seperate and apart from the original research of this thread which is that Allah, not I, but again Allah has said that Islaam is the only religion or way of life (Deen), so therefore Muslims who make the claim that all religions are from Allah contradicts the very Book they stand one. We all don't want to compromise the teaching of Islaam right?

Salaam

Peace
Islam is not a religion.
And the Quran makes it clear that no matter what group/label you belong to, as long as you do good things you are a believer.
peace

[Tay]

Peace Al-Khidr, all,

Thank you for the thought-provoking article, and I applaud the civility of this discourse.

You mentioned in your dialogue with alpha that he was getting into semantics. I wonder if our understanding of the semantics being used here are actually succinct. Please clarify if I am misunderstanding the following

This issue trumpeting ?all faiths teach the same values? or ?all religions are good? has been going on for long. After a careful analysis, I am of the opinion that this concept is only partly true, NOT entirely. It is no doubt correct that the ethical values of all faiths are similar. But that cannot be said in regard to their spiritual aspects. For instance, all religions profess that it is wrong to steal, to kill, to be dishonest, to commit adultery or fornication, to be unkind to parents, relatives, neighbours and humanity in general, etc. etc. All such issues make up the ethical side of every faith and may have a high degree of uniformity. However, all faiths do not portray the same ideology about God, and this constitutes its spiritual/religious side. Concerning spiritual and religious notions, Islam is different and is the final word for all those who adhere to the Qur'aan. The Glorious Qur?aan clearly mentions that we ought to follow only the path shown by Allah. If we follow other guidelines, we run the risk of being parted from His way.

You mention that religion's portrayal of the ideology of God constitutes religion's spiritual side. Yet you do not describe how this is achieved. I disagree wholehearedly because ideology by definition is the work of the mind, not the soul. For instance, christians don't come to understand their trinity concept through meditation but through indoctrination. Same with buddhists, hindus, jews, and even muslims. Attributes of God are taught to the mind from other minds, and this is the jist of "ideology of God".

My understanding of what alpha was describing is that the spiritual aspect of one's deen does not and can not come from any book. The book(s) can only be regarded as maps or signs pointing the way, but the way itself is one of personal contemplation in transcendence of mind-speak leading to a spiritual understanding of God.

Thus, when al-qur'an describes that what we have in our hands is the same that was given to nuh, musa, ibrahim, and isa, it must be concluded that the maps and signs weren't identical, but the source they pointed to is the same.

What verification via logic, reason, etc. accomplishes is not the grasping of the spiritual, but the filtering out of the non-sensical.

Peace,
Tay

[Al_Khidr]

Wa Laykum As Salaam Tay

I believe you raised a question pertaining to this statement

?However, all faiths do not portray the same ideology about God, and this constitutes its spiritual/religious side.?

This is basically on the subject matter at hand that Allah only revealed one religion and not several different religions so that is why the statement is the way it is, its basically self explanatory, that all religions do not have the same ideologies which also transcends into their spiritual/religious side of that religion that is man-made out side of Al Islaam.

Now I noticed that you said this and you also included Muslims in your example as well

?For instance, christians don't come to understand their trinity concept through meditation but through indoctrination. Same with buddhists, hindus, jews, and even muslims. Attributes of God are taught to the mind from other minds, and this is the jist of "ideology of God"

One thing I would like to comment on was that I agree that the false dogmas such as the trinity, Jesus being God, reincarnation, etc. etc. are indoctrinations of man. However I recognize Islaam as the total truth from the Source of all that exist ALLAH, so on the other hand I totally reject your ?belief system? of the awareness of the existence of Allah, Islaam is something that is merely conceived from the mind of a mortal and I believe this is what you are saying and if you are not saying that please correct me. I believe that the reality of Allah exist and that reality is not diminished to atheistic forms of ?belief systems? who claim that reality (Allah, The Creator) originate from the mind of man and man-made ideologies. I believe that man-made doctrines stems from the men and I believe this is what you are diminishing the Creator to when you said this

?Attributes of God are taught to the mind from other minds, and this is the jist of "ideology of God?

I believe the consciousnesses of Allah, the nature of Islaam are naturally endowed in man and woman from birth and that many on the planet have deviated from that truth/reality/their natural nature through indoctrinations of men that occurs under the laws of ?free will?. I do not synonymously equate the reality of Allah and His TRUTH with the man-made-innovations, false concepts of man, etc.

You have said this

?My understanding of what alpha was describing is that the spiritual aspect of one's deen does not and can not come from any book. The book(s) can only be regarded as maps or signs pointing the way, but the way itself is one of personal contemplation in transcendence of mind-speak leading to a spiritual understanding of God.?

When you said this, ?My understanding of what alpha was describing is that the spiritual aspect of one's deen does not and can not come from any book.? On the contrary Allah told us that He revealed His Book (Qur?aan) as guidance. Many people try to make the claim that it?s only in the heart/its only a personal journey etc. and we really do not need any books. But many people who talk that talk sometimes have a wicked intent to disregard and remove us from following Allah?s Holy Book (Al Qur?aan). Now I have not concluded that with Alpha nor you but time will tell and expose such intentions from anybody. I am very skeptical when people approach others with that philosophy. I have provided several verses in Al Qur?aan where Allah tells us that we are to believe/have faith in as well as observe or follow Al Qur?aan. It is more deeper then what you two are diminishing this to. Now if no one has a Qur?aan, then that situation is a different story. But since we have it and it?s the total TRUTH from the Creator we are suppose to follow it instead of adhering to philosophies that preaches

-The Qur?aan) to just a Book.

-And that we don?t really need it/we do not really need to follow it because it?s in the heart.

-It (the Qur?aan) only serves as road maps etc. etc. etc.

Now, Tay another question for you is if our spiritual aspect of one?s Deen does not come from a Book as you have said, then how did you come to Islaam that is if you are a Muslim-Did Allah speak to you out of the sky, help me get a clearer understanding of your insight?

In my response to Alpha I said we need Allah?s guidance and we also need the guidance of the Holy Qur?aan. Man is finite we make & create error/confusion, but the Holy Qur?aan is an infallible Book from the Creator, which is here to keep us on the straight path, it is here for guidance, We are suppose to follow it from now until the Day of Judgment, so the Holy Qur?aan is much more then just for a road map. It is here for us to observe from now until the Day of Judgment. It is a Book that makes a distinction from falsehood and that of truth, the Qur?aan is evidence, not blind faith from The Creator.

I notice that you have said this

?but the way itself is one of personal contemplation in transcendence of mind-speak leading to a spiritual understanding of God.?

First of all every body in different religions make that same principal claim but yet they all ended up in different religions which all contradicts one another. And another things that I want to add to your statement up above is that in such journey that you have described, what will help that journey is for one to do research, study, seek knowledge, evidence, facts, proof in addition to seeking guidance in Allah, so that our personal journey will not be a journey of blind faith. Allah repeatedly tells us in so many ways to seek knowledge and evidence

Qur?aan 1736
You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

Qur?aan 3918
They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom Allah has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

In Qur?aan 2111 addresses the Jews and Christians when they make this foolish claim that they are the only ones who will enter Paradise and Allah tells us in the Holy Qur?aan to ask them to show/bring/produce their proof

Qur?aan 2111
They said, ?No one will enter Paradise unless they be a Jew or a Christian!? Such is their wishful thinking. Say, ?Show us your proof, if you are truthfull.?

Allah also gives us Muslims the GREEN light to DEBATE in (16125). Debate is a format which civilized people use to address their differences. In Debate falsehood and truth clash, thus, this is a process that we take in order for truth to shine by presenting evidence to refute falsehood. Blind faith has no life in this process

Qur?aan 1781
And say ?Truth has (now) arrived, and falsehood perished for falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish,?

Tay, its so much more then just personal journey and seeking guidance in your own heart without knowing whether or not your faith has lead you in the correct spot. Yes we have to have a pure heart and an open heart but we also have to seek guidance in the Final Authority which is Allah and in addition to that He gave us a beautiful Book for guidance and Allah has revealed that Book (Al Qur?aan) for us to follow from now until the Day Of Judgment. The Holy Qur?aan is not some Book that we just display and diminish it to just only for a ?road map?. Many people have taken the blind faith course and ended up in Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, just to name a few and never once question their religion to see if it is man-made or Divine form the Creator of all the exist ALLAH.

Below is a statement of yours

?Thus, when al-qur'an describes that what we have in our hands is the same that was given to nuh, musa, ibrahim, and isa, it must be concluded that the maps and signs weren't identical, but the source they pointed to is the same.?

I really do not quite know what direction you are leading into here, perhaps you can expound it?

You have said this

?What verification via logic, reason, etc. accomplishes is not the grasping of the spiritual, but the filtering out of the non-sensical.?

This is totally false, you are removing the fact that Allah wants us to investigate to obtain proof/evidence/facts of spiritual matters, its not only for just the non-sensical stuff but its also for spiritual matters and such approach will remove blind faith, false belief systems that many of us have fell victim to Satan?s trap. Also to Tay, we have a lot of non-sensical mess in religion including men trying to innovate things within the true religion or way of life of Islaam. So since Allah has decreed for us to examine everything, such approach and especially seeking out the true religion or way of life of Allah is every part of being spiritual because if you don?t take that approach, being a mere finite creature or human being, thus, you can be mislead and again the world is an example of that and that is why we have to also have an awareness of that many religions created were not created by Allah but by men who all claim it is the truth. Seeking knowledge from the Cradle to the grave is very spiritual in nature. When Allah would send His Prophets/Messengers such Jesus, Moses for example, Allah sent them with Al Bayyinah (clear proofs/signs/evidence), examples are below

Qur?aan 287
We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him We sent other Messengers, and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear signs (Al Bayyinah), and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not a fact that every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, you turned arrogant, so some of them you rejected, and some of them you killed?

Qur?aan 292
And indeed Moses went to you with clear signs (Al Bayyinah), yet you worshiped the calf in his absence, and you were transgressors.

Qur?aan 616
Recall that Jesus, son of Mary, said, ?O Children of Israel, I am a Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Torah (which came) before me and bringing good news of a Messenger to come after me whose name will be Ahmad.? Then, when he showed them the clear evidence (Al Bayyinah), they said, ?This is clearly magic.?

Al Bayyinah is an Arabic word that means ?Proofs/Signs/Evidence? and Prophet Muhammad even came with Al Bayyinah because he was sent from Allah. Allah does not guide with blind faith and that is why Allah has placed scientific miracles in the Holy Qur?aan so that we can know that His Book (Qur?aan) is actually from Him, The Source of all that exist. Below is an example of such scientific miracle

Qur?aan 2130
Do the unbelievers not realize that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into existence? And from water We made all living things. Would they believe?

Scientist who validated the Big Bang actually helped us see the scientific miracle Allah places in His Holy Book over 1400 years ago. The whole moral of the story is that science/knowledge/evidence/proof/logic/reasoning place a very instrumental role in our spiritual development and growth and most of all it will remove us from being under the fallacy of blind faith and we will have Bayyinah/Furqaan to know better from right and wrong, from truth and falsehood, from light and darkness and that we will have clear consciousness, state of mind and contentment with our heart that we have the truth from Allah Himself which is Al Islaam. This is so much more beautiful then blind faith which is nothing more than Satan?s way of keeping us in spiritual darkness.

Tay, I have a question for you do you believe that all religions stems from the same Divine Source (Allah) or do you believe that Allah only revealed one religion or way of life called Islaam, which is the subject of this thread?

Salaam

Peace Al-Khidr, all,

Thank you for the thought-provoking article, and I applaud the civility of this discourse.

You mentioned in your dialogue with alpha that he was getting into semantics. I wonder if our understanding of the semantics being used here are actually succinct. Please clarify if I am misunderstanding the following

This issue trumpeting ?all faiths teach the same values? or ?all religions are good? has been going on for long. After a careful analysis, I am of the opinion that this concept is only partly true, NOT entirely. It is no doubt correct that the ethical values of all faiths are similar. But that cannot be said in regard to their spiritual aspects. For instance, all religions profess that it is wrong to steal, to kill, to be dishonest, to commit adultery or fornication, to be unkind to parents, relatives, neighbours and humanity in general, etc. etc. All such issues make up the ethical side of every faith and may have a high degree of uniformity. However, all faiths do not portray the same ideology about God, and this constitutes its spiritual/religious side. Concerning spiritual and religious notions, Islam is different and is the final word for all those who adhere to the Qur'aan. The Glorious Qur?aan clearly mentions that we ought to follow only the path shown by Allah. If we follow other guidelines, we run the risk of being parted from His way.

You mention that religion's portrayal of the ideology of God constitutes religion's spiritual side. Yet you do not describe how this is achieved. I disagree wholehearedly because ideology by definition is the work of the mind, not the soul. For instance, christians don't come to understand their trinity concept through meditation but through indoctrination. Same with buddhists, hindus, jews, and even muslims. Attributes of God are taught to the mind from other minds, and this is the jist of "ideology of God".

My understanding of what alpha was describing is that the spiritual aspect of one's deen does not and can not come from any book. The book(s) can only be regarded as maps or signs pointing the way, but the way itself is one of personal contemplation in transcendence of mind-speak leading to a spiritual understanding of God.

Thus, when al-qur'an describes that what we have in our hands is the same that was given to nuh, musa, ibrahim, and isa, it must be concluded that the maps and signs weren't identical, but the source they pointed to is the same.

What verification via logic, reason, etc. accomplishes is not the grasping of the spiritual, but the filtering out of the non-sensical.

Peace,
Tay

[Tay]

Peace Al-Khidr,

I recognize Islaam as the total truth from the Source of all that exist ALLAH, so on the other hand I totally reject your ?belief system? of the awareness of the existence of Allah, Islaam is something that is merely conceived from the mind of a mortal and I believe this is what you are saying and if you are not saying that please correct me.

Actually, this is not what I meant at all - and why I felt an emphasis on the semantics should be made to clarify

i?de?ol?o?gy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-l-j, d-)
n. pl. i?de?ol?o?gies
The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.

Ideology is mind-stuff and has nothing to do with spirituality. That was my point. We are all indoctrinated into our respective systems via knowledge, ie, mind. The spiritual aspect comes in transcendence of this knowledge.

I believe the consciousnesses of Allah, the nature of Islaam are naturally endowed in man and woman from birth and that many on the planet have deviated from that truth/reality/their natural nature through indoctrinations of men that occurs under the laws of ?free will?. I do not synonymously equate the reality of Allah and His TRUTH with the man-made-innovations, false concepts of man, etc.

I agree with you, in the sense that islam = "submission to God". Not in the sense of islam = "the religion one can extrapolate from al-qur'an".

When you said this, ?My understanding of what alpha was describing is that the spiritual aspect of one's deen does not and can not come from any book.? On the contrary Allah told us that He revealed His Book (Qur?aan) as guidance. Many people try to make the claim that it?s only in the heart/its only a personal journey etc. and we really do not need any books.

Again, the semantics are vital for us to understand each other. What is guidance if not a series of signs and/or instructions designed to instruct one towards a destination? The destination is the goal, not the guidance. And the destination is transcendence of wordly knowledge - from believing to knowing.

many people who talk that talk sometimes have a wicked intent to disregard and remove us from following Allah?s Holy Book (Al Qur?aan). Now I have not concluded that with Alpha nor you but time will tell and expose such intentions from anybody. I am very skeptical when people approach others with that philosophy.

I understand your skepticism and this is certainly healthy. Let me be clear. I am not, by any means, limiting or belittling the importance and divinity of al-qur'an. It is the beacon, the cable of Allah, a blessing upon us, there for us to return to time and again for guidance. It is a miracle in every sense of the word. But it is not a spirituality machine. It only points the way.

Now, Tay another question for you is if our spiritual aspect of one?s Deen does not come from a Book as you have said, then how did you come to Islaam that is if you are a Muslim-Did Allah speak to you out of the sky, help me get a clearer understanding of your insight?

I'm not sure what you mean by "out of the sky", but I have experienced the awe and clarity of Allah's guidance from within at a time when I completely left the fold of islam. You can believe me or not, but I assure what I experienced had nothing to do with the details we often debate about on this forum. My spiritual experience taught me things that I find nearly impossible to express in words. The best I can do is tell you that it did not nullify my belief in al-qur'an, but it shifted the angle from which I view it.

In my response to Alpha I said we need Allah?s guidance and we also need the guidance of the Holy Qur?aan. Man is finite we make & create error/confusion, but the Holy Qur?aan is an infallible Book from the Creator, which is here to keep us on the straight path, it is here for guidance, We are suppose to follow it from now until the Day of Judgment, so the Holy Qur?aan is much more then just for a road map. It is here for us to observe from now until the Day of Judgment. It is a Book that makes a distinction from falsehood and that of truth, the Qur?aan is evidence, not blind faith from The Creator.

I agree it's more than a map. It's a super-duper map, from the Creator with all the attributes you descibed. But in the end, the book itself is powerless without the spiritual end it was designed to allow us to achieve. Many, many muslims today are walking, talking proof of what I am expressing here. Just learning the doctrine is not enough. The doctrine is just words.

First of all every body in different religions make that same principal claim but yet they all ended up in different religions which all contradicts one another. And another things that I want to add to your statement up above is that in such journey that you have described, what will help that journey is for one to do research, study, seek knowledge, evidence, facts, proof in addition to seeking guidance in Allah, so that our personal journey will not be a journey of blind faith. Allah repeatedly tells us in so many ways to seek knowledge and evidence

I agree. Claims are just words. If people end up in contradiction, then surely they haven't found al-haqq. They are, quite simply, liars. And certainly, the way to help the journey is as you described. This allows for the mind and soul to be in perfect sync, in harmony, a truly noble goal.

Allah also gives us Muslims the GREEN light to DEBATE in (16125). Debate is a format which civilized people use to address their differences. In Debate falsehood and truth clash, thus, this is a process that we take in order for truth to shine by presenting evidence to refute falsehood. Blind faith has no life in this process.

Absolutely agreed. But there comes a time in debate, as can be witnessed here on a daily basis, when folks must agree to disagree, yet both can be muslims. That for me is proof in itself that the mind left alone in the world of knowledge cannot possibly be the determining factor in discovering truth - else, every topic should end with the debaters in perfect accordance.

Tay, its so much more then just personal journey and seeking guidance in your own heart without knowing whether or not your faith has lead you in the correct spot. Yes we have to have a pure heart and an open heart but we also have to seek guidance in the Final Authority which is Allah and in addition to that He gave us a beautiful Book for guidance and Allah has revealed that Book (Al Qur?aan) for us to follow from now until the Day Of Judgment. The Holy Qur?aan is not some Book that we just display and diminish it to just only for a ?road map?. Many people have taken the blind faith course and ended up in Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, just to name a few and never once question their religion to see if it is man-made or Divine form the Creator of all the exist ALLAH.

Beautifully stated, and I hope you can see from my further clarifications that I agree wholeheartedly.

I stated "?What verification via logic, reason, etc. accomplishes is not the grasping of the spiritual, but the filtering out of the non-sensical.?...to which you replied

This is totally false, you are removing the fact that Allah wants us to investigate to obtain proof/evidence/facts of spiritual matters, its not only for just the non-sensical stuff but its also for spiritual matters and such approach will remove blind faith, false belief systems that many of us have fell victim to Satan?s trap. Also to Tay, we have a lot of non-sensical mess in religion including men trying to innovate things within the true religion or way of life of Islaam. So since Allah has decreed for us to examine everything, such approach and especially seeking out the true religion or way of life of Allah is every part of being spiritual because if you don?t take that approach, being a mere finite creature or human being, thus, you can be mislead and again the world is an example of that and that is why we have to also have an awareness of that many religions created were not created by Allah but by men who all claim it is the truth. Seeking knowledge from the Cradle to the grave is very spiritual in nature. When Allah would send His Prophets/Messengers such Jesus, Moses for example, Allah sent them with Al Bayyinah (clear proofs/signs/evidence), examples are below

You say it's totally false yet you go on to only strengthen my point. Reason and logic are tools of the mind - period. Spirituality defies reason and logic because it is the connection to the divine which is far beyond these worldy concepts. I hope by now I've explained this position thoroughly without too much repitition. Proofs/signs/evidences are food for thought. Of course they are important, but they are not spiritual. They can only be confirmed by the spiritual, but they do not define the spiritual.

Tay, I have a question for you do you believe that all religions stems from the same Divine Source (Allah) or do you believe that Allah only revealed one religion or way of life called Islaam, which is the subject of this thread?

I don't think this either/or question is mutually exclusive. I know in my soul that there is only one way - God's way, and submitting to God's way is called islam. I believe that all religions started from this point but mankind, living in the world or mind-stuff (politics and greed) has certainly evolved religion far from it's pure zero-point.

May peace be upon you,
Tay

[alpha97]

As Salaamu Alaykum brothers Al Khird. Tay, Pheonix and all brothers and sisters,

Thank you all for this good discussion on this forum! and please continue! I enjoyed reading them.
My unorthodox way of debate is bothering you Al Khidr? Thank you for bearing it brother!
What are the brothers for then? ;D

There are many issues which can be touched in this discussion as brother Tay elegantly has replied. But i want to stay with one central aspect and that is Attainment of Faith. In time we will come to the rest

Believing is guess-work and only Faith lies in the realm of truth!
You asked me about Sufism. That does not guide either! There is only one source of Guidance and have always been!

1. Guidance unveils only when one approaches the realm of Faith.

2. And Faith comes only through experience! while Believing comes through guesswork! It is never 100%. Your chances might be good but there is no certainty! Faith comes through certainty of experience.

3. And that certainty and that experience is NOT achievable. That certainty can only happen to you. You can not choose it or buy it or learn it. And that certainty will be granted to you, only during the journey of spiritual growth.

4. And spiritual growth comes through training of your soul.

5. And through walking the realm of GIVING!

A writing of sister Myr has made me very mystic! since yesterday and it is about the realm of GIVING! It is fabulous

[ but the point is that God the All-Mighty created everything at our reach, and we can see that in many instances, without doing anything, trees will give fruits and flowers, cows will give milk, chicken will give eggs, rivers will give water, etc. and all these creations or part of the big creation do not complain when they give but continue to give, because they all submit to their Lord and follow HIS natural laws while we the humans, we tend to go against this nature, we do not give without worrying or complaining or counting, or expecting something in return. Have you noticed that some trees will even make their fruits available to us without picking them up?-), they let their fruits drop on the ground, made available to anyone to be picked up and without asking the person if he/she is poor/needy, subhan Allah wa al-hamdullillah for this blessing and signs we often do take for granted. We forget that we are part of this creation and therefore we should not go against the nature, that is giving.

Peace. Myr.

In the realm of GIVING soul will become charitable! It will transform! It will be searching to GIVE! And that realm needs to be experienced, it is real. It lies in the HOLY KINGDOM of COMPASSION!

Have you seen mother?s LOOK when looking to her new born baby? That look is not generated by chemicals in the brain! That look and those deep emotions comes from another realm which you can not put on the operating table. You can not count it! It is neither logical or illogical! It is beyond logic! But human HEART can experience it!

For soul training you need to go and walk there! In that other dimension!

During this journey the AWAKENING will be granted! Certainty will come and Faith will be attained.

But when Faith is attained, you will find yourself at adifferent angle. Things appeals deep down! It makes you fall down on your chin prostrating! while looking into sunset, watching birds, reciting Quran, reading a piece of paper without knowing who the writer is! You have become receptive!
Howal Azziz ol Shakoor

[Al_Khidr]

Wa Laykum As Salaam Alpha

I have to admit I laughed in a positive way when I read your statement here

"Thank you all for this good discussion on this forum! and please continue! I enjoyed reading them.
My unorthodox way of debate is bothering you Al Khidr? Thank you for bearing it brother!
What are the brothers for then?"

And thanks again for never unveiling that mysterious wise person's quote brickwall

Salaam

As Salaamu Alaykum brothers Al Khird. Tay, Pheonix and all brothers and sisters,

Thank you all for this good discussion on this forum! and please continue! I enjoyed reading them.
My unorthodox way of debate is bothering you Al Khidr? Thank you for bearing it brother!
What are the brothers for then? ;D

There are many issues which can be touched in this discussion as brother Tay elegantly has replied. But i want to stay with one central aspect and that is Attainment of Faith. In time we will come to the rest

Believing is guess-work and only Faith lies in the realm of truth!
You asked me about Sufism. That does not guide either! There is only one source of Guidance and have always been!

1. Guidance unveils only when one approaches the realm of Faith.

2. And Faith comes only through experience! while Believing comes through guesswork! It is never 100%. Your chances might be good but there is no certainty! Faith comes through certainty of experience.

3. And that certainty and that experience is NOT achievable. That certainty can only happen to you. You can not choose it or buy it or learn it. And that certainty will be granted to you, only during the journey of spiritual growth.

4. And spiritual growth comes through training of your soul.

5. And through walking the realm of GIVING!

A writing of sister Myr has made me very mystic! since yesterday and it is about the realm of GIVING! It is fabulous

[ but the point is that God the All-Mighty created everything at our reach, and we can see that in many instances, without doing anything, trees will give fruits and flowers, cows will give milk, chicken will give eggs, rivers will give water, etc. and all these creations or part of the big creation do not complain when they give but continue to give, because they all submit to their Lord and follow HIS natural laws while we the humans, we tend to go against this nature, we do not give without worrying or complaining or counting, or expecting something in return. Have you noticed that some trees will even make their fruits available to us without picking them up?-), they let their fruits drop on the ground, made available to anyone to be picked up and without asking the person if he/she is poor/needy, subhan Allah wa al-hamdullillah for this blessing and signs we often do take for granted. We forget that we are part of this creation and therefore we should not go against the nature, that is giving.

Peace. Myr.

In the realm of GIVING soul will become charitable! It will transform! It will be searching to GIVE! And that realm needs to be experienced, it is real. It lies in the HOLY KINGDOM of COMPASSION!

Have you seen mother?s LOOK when looking to her new born baby? That look is not generated by chemicals in the brain! That look and those deep emotions comes from another realm which you can not put on the operating table. You can not count it! It is neither logical or illogical! It is beyond logic! But human HEART can experience it!

For soul training you need to go and walk there! In that other dimension!

During this journey the AWAKENING will be granted! Certainty will come and Faith will be attained.

But when Faith is attained, you will find yourself at adifferent angle. Things appeals deep down! It makes you fall down on your chin prostrating! while looking into sunset, watching birds, reciting Quran, reading a piece of paper without knowing who the writer is! You have become receptive!
Howal Azziz ol Shakoor

[Al_Khidr]

As Salaamu Alaykum Tay

I see now after reading your response and listening to you expound more deeply the message that you were conveying, we are basically on the same wave length. There is not really to much you and I have a disagreement on. Alhamdulillah.

Salaam

[Tay]

Peace Al-Khidr,

I am glad that we have understood each other.

Peace be upon you,
Tay

[Al_Khidr]

Salaam Tay

Me to and thanks again for the fruitful dialogue we had.

Salaam

Peace Al-Khidr,

I am glad that we have understood each other.

Peace be upon you,
Tay

[Tay]

handshake