The Tragedy of TYRANNICAL-minds (formerly 'free-minds')
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Danish, what is your goal at this forum?
That is a question i was asking myself, look at the irrelevent video he posted that has noting to do with this thread
that is what he always do, try to disturb the enviroment with some negative crap against Islam and the Quran
this tells me that he is very itchy and unsecure to what he believes in, you know similar to those mass killers suiciders who can't face death alone so they try to kill as many as they can with them
therefore as far as I'm concerned Danish goal is to take as many as he can with him to HELL due to the huge unsecurity he is suffering on a daily basis, ironically he does not know that this is his goal
Salam
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Peace m,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and good to see you back. And if you have to leave again, then please return without delay. I've always, from my first day here, viewed you and a handful of others as the pillars of this forum. Sadly, all the pillars are posting less and less, leaving the "space" open for the babble to pour in.
I've been brainstorming for the last few months on how we can improve things. The conclusion that I've come to is that no amount of legislation would be effective in ridding this place of the unwanted elements without choking the freedom bandwidth, if you will.
An objective look at the discussions, from say 12-15 months ago, compared to now reveals one thing to me, and that is the quantity vs. quality ratio. There weren't necessarily more discussions or less, but the people involved in most discussions were more open and respectful compared to now.
I know many people here probably have issues with any sort of behavioral "policing". But the fact of the matter is that in real life, if someone is acting like an ass, we usually walk away or start a fight. But here, it's ok to act like an ass so long as the rules aren't broken. One doesn't have to blatantly insult someone else in order to insult someone else.
I include myself in hoping that all of us people (without any label) will just take a moment to reflect on our behaviors. A spark without fuel cannot become a flame. Let's keep the fuel to a minimum and remind each other when progress is sacrificed in the name of pride.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all
I'd like everyone to read or to scan through these threads to get an idea of what mquran is partially talking about.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5550.0
Already, on page one, enquirer fails to bring the verses that HE IS TALKING ABOUT. Sister Nadia had to bring forth the verses. With no need, enquirer starts off with an arrogant and mocking tone.
From this next one, I will use the "discussion" between him and CavemanDoctor
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5872.15
CavemanDoctor makes a long 2-post reply to every single one of his arguments. All is going well so far.
On the next page, enquirer says this
Peace all. ps;caveman doctor; I willl respond to your thesis later... Wink
Fair enough.
A day later, enquirer "responds."
Cavemandoctor; One major problem with your example...The tv instructions dont claim to be divine,complete,or for all times.....
This is whole response to CavemanDoctor's "thesis." After ten pages of this, enquirer just takes a little vacation until everyone forgets. Eventually he comes back and starts another thread just like these. This in itself, shows that enquirer has some agenda, and is not here to sincerely discuss things.
This is very, very disrespectful and should not be tolerated. THIS is what mquran is talking about.
I, for one, am very fond of discussing things, especially things regarding the Qur'an and whether it is divine or not. However, it is not productive and almost pointless to have a debate with people like enquirer. This is just two threads, a small portion of the whole.
I am all for having debates. I'm also for freedom of speech on this forum, but people who clearly have hidden agendas and people who are disrespectful in discussions need to go. I don't label people by their beliefs, but by their behavior.
People like that must go.
Peace.
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Peace
I do not necessarily agree with everything mquran says, but I know exactly where he is coming from. People like enquirer have frustrated him. That's where it's coming from. I know a few people, including myself who have also gotten very frustrated for the same reasons. Again, there are always, and still are, a few people who do not care about discussing, rather, they have hidden agendas. They need to leave.
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Danish, what is your goal at this forum?
To study, understand and discuss a historical book named Quran and not to cuss it out in the name of GOD like you and your cronies do?
This thread was intentionally created to spark a flame (read again), not to discuss matters of the Quran but to instigate "violence" amongst its members. Mquran and a few others take deliberate and painstaking measures to politicize this forum.
If you want to study and understand the entire Quran, then do so with open-mindedness, from both its internal and external relevancies and realize the fact that it is nothing more than an ancient book. No need for condemnations and inflamatory declarations to support a man-made written book. To many, especially the radically and derainged Islamic fundamentalists, this book has become another GOD or IDOL.
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Peace Mo,
one thing that you perhaps missed in your observance.. is how the problems start.. it's usually a lack of understanding from one memeber towards the other.. the lack of understanding is normal... if you want a board of drones who speak the same party line... go make one somewhere else.. there is nothing wrong with not understanding one another.. as long as we at least try and strive to come to an understanding ..
I'm not sure how you surmised that from what I stated bro. What I said was people were more open and respectful - nothing about everyone speaking the same party line. I've been to those types of forums and they suck, to be honest.
but the actual "problems" start with slinging of defiling accusations towards another human being... now go back and re-read many of the threads.. and find where accusations start.. and you'll find most of those roles are filled by those who start threads likes this to begin with...
What I've found is that it takes 2 to tango.
and mind yourself too.. that calling another Believer a disbeliever.. a kafir etc... is the worst of insults...!
I try my best man. To my knowledge, I've never called anyone a kafir. In fact, I readily admit that I've never met a kafir. But anyway, if I slip with the label thingy, then I hope you and others will be good enough to let me know about it.
Tay, I understand now that you appear to play a political role on this board.. am I right at this understanding?
Not that I know of. I just like this place and would hate to see it become a place I don't like. I guess that's just me being selfish.
Peace,
Tay -
To study, understand and discuss a historical book named Quran and not to cuss it out in the name of GOD like you and your cronies do?
You're really here to sincerely, and open-mindedly do all those things? Are you sure you're not here to try to convince people to
realize the fact that it is nothing more than an ancient book. No need for condemnations and inflamatory declarations to support a man-made written book. To many, especially the radically and derainged Islamic fundamentalists, this book has become another GOD or IDOL.
Also, cuss it out in the name of God? What? Show me where I have done this.
This thread was intentionally created to spark a flame (read again), not to discuss matters of the Quran but to instigate "violence" amongst its members. Mquran and a few others take deliberate and painstaking measures to politicize this forum.
As I have said, I do not agree with everything he says. However, I do believe a few people here such as yourself do have agendas here. Stop looking at this whole forum as one whole.
If you want to study and understand the entire Quran, then do so with open-mindedness,
That seems a bit hypocritical.
from both its internal and external relevancies and realize the fact that it is nothing more than an ancient book. No need for condemnations and inflamatory declarations to support a man-made written book.
We have separate beliefs. Get rid of your agenda.
To many, especially the radically and derainged Islamic fundamentalists, this book has become another GOD or IDOL.
No need to bring them in. Don't associate them with me.
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Salam upon you all,
Please my family in faith, we have to stop arguing like this with each other. None of us will ever know the entire truth in detail. But I know God is the truth, and I know God wants us to believe in him, and I know God wants us to do and be good, and I know God would not create us and put us here without also giving us his guidance for those who seek it. I think we all agree that God exists and that God gave mankind the Quran for his guidance. Cant we at least start there and try to build upon that. If you dont believe these two simple statements then you dont belong in this forum. If you do then lets try to work together to spread this message of truth to mankind. Lets not be like all other religions and denominations and fight and split into as many beliefs as their are minds of men.
Does anyone else here believe like I do that we in this new God alone/Quran alone community aregiven the greatest task ever given to mankind since Prophet Mohammad brought the message, and since then the religion of Islam has been corrupted? If we truly believe in the Quran and God alone then shouldnt we try to build together from there? Lets not quibble over trivial little comments and repaste posts of others just to criticize and make a few points here and there. We must start by seeing where we agree, and buils one step at a time from there to the next thing we believe, of course we will be open minded and accept all views and opinions if they help and contribute to this, but if its just negative criticism without any good to it we must reject it, we cant allow every whim and wish to invade our belief.
So I propose a start to our new True Islam Ummah,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I bear witness that there is no God but God,,
if you agree with this then next is,
I believe the Quran is the holy message of the One God to all mankind,,
If we can all agree on this then we are already doing better than anyone else ever did,
lets build from ther my friends..
Salam,
Kurt
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Hello All
I really have no problem with the enemy of Islam to post their crap in here as long as they are aware that some committed believers won't let that go easy, so if they want to degrade and defame the Quran, be our gusts and we will bomb you out with ease, i hope they have enugh stamina though.
Salam
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Ugh.
Lol OM
come on give me a break will ya?, they are coming to our house degarding the Quran, what do you want us to do?, oh yeh will give them our second cheek to slap it
Salam
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Salaamun alaikum guys.
Allow me to clarify a few things ok
Jankren Everytime there is a topic regarding certain things in Al Quran, people who remind me of those arrogant and idiotic imams, who think they know better and look down on others, often come up and attack one another in shameful manner
Debates do not have to be this way. You don't need to go 'you're a thousand billion percent wrong' or 'don't mislead anyone with your arabic'. These are provocative responses. Rather, you could go 'I disagree' and move on.
However, this is NOT the issue. The issue is, very simply, that people are coming, DEFECATING or URINATING metaphorically on what the believers* consider the book of God. I use these strong words because if one aimed to clarify or criticise, one should stick around for the answers. Be responsible, not scum.
Danish (insert unintelligible response here)
Danish is a good example of a defecator. He comes with a highly provocative remark (like 'this interpretation is silly' and when one asks for definition, he uses abusive language. I don't know how the moderators still tolerate him.
S2S If all believers in quran packed up and shipped out, what would become of this forum ?
S2S, we don't need believers* to do anything if the forum itself was tightened. All we need is to do is to open AQ and ask it, what do we do in a situation like this?
Samia I totally agree with S2S. I do not understand this defeatism you are showing, mq, because that's not you. Yes, leaving, or thinking of leaving the forum is defeatism, and that's what many want that this forum collapses.So please let's not give them this opportunity
It's difficult for me to sit by and watch AQ being lied about. I already see that in many forums run by ignorant people but in FM itself, it shouldn't happen.
DanishIf only he had a "VOICE" to be heard. His aim is to ban all non-quranists
Another lie. My aim to make sure that that ALL criticisms of AQ are taken responsibility for by the critic. You sir , are the second worst person in that respect. You mud-sling AQ and then u abuse people who defend it.
DanishI wonder the same about you. (samia)
What a childish and pathetic response. Samia contributes positively to discussion unlike Danish who's here to vent.
ABthis tells me that he (danish) is very itchy and unsecure to what he believes in, you know similar to those mass killers suiciders who can't face death alone so they try to kill as many as they can with them
My guess is this too.
TayI know many people here probably have issues with any sort of behavioral "policing". But the fact of the matter is that in real life, if someone is acting like an ass, we usually walk away or start a fight. But here, it's ok to act like an ass so long as the rules aren't broken. One doesn't have to blatantly insult someone else in order to insult someone else.
I include myself in hoping that all of us people (without any label) will just take a moment to reflect on our behaviors. A spark without fuel cannot become a flame. Let's keep the fuel to a minimum and remind each other when progress is sacrificed in the name of pride.
Agreed. And I would add , AQ is something we don't play around with. I have thought about this and conclude that to be silent while insults to AQ are abound and while new people are coming and reading, thus seeing that AQ is 'vulnerable' (due to obfuscation of discussion, not actual vulnerability) is unacceptable. I ask fellow believers* to put a stop to this as far as they can.
Mehdifair enough.. it appears so far that you have a greivance with one member of the board... but this does not appear to be the only issue.. the person who are protecting in your post above on this very thread has accused me of being in a group with the member who are in grievance with... although I was not involved at all with the said argument which you guys were having etc..
Yes, that's correct, BEHAVIOURALLY insofar as behaviour is defined by the proceeding sentence, you're of the same group as Enquirer, Lote-Tree and Danish. You start out with provocative and insulting threads and refuse to discuss them amicably. Such is the work of troublemakers and just because you purport to believe in AQ, that doesnt make u any different if u behave in that way.
I've obsereved MQuran use the Quran to continue to sling accusations on those who disagree with his notions of quran... this is quran thumping... hitting another over the head with the quran and one's interrpetation.. and this just can't be good... it's not right... again.. calling a Believer a kafur is the worst of insults.. but we don't seem to curb this as much others go after members like enquirer as you mentioned above...
Kindly bring forth examples of this.
Also tell us, should we not judge AQ to judge people? What is AQ for then? Evidence please.
(prediction no evidence will be forthcoming)
Thank you OpenMind.. i understand what you mean.. cause I'm still waiting for enquierer to continue on the "conditioning" thread he started... but am not holding my breath...
And I'm still waiting for YOU to define what a sect is. You called FM 'a sect about nothing' but refused to define your terms. Are we too low to warrant your explanations?
Danish This thread was intentionally created to spark a flame (read again), not to discuss matters of the Quran but to instigate "violence" amongst its members. Mquran and a few others take deliberate and painstaking measures to politicize this forum.
I wonder this person is, really. If he was from a muslim background, wouldnt he know that AQ embraces the political ? OF COURSE IM AIMING TO POLITICISE THE FORUM. This forum was meant for us to dig deep into AQ, not for you to come, open your mouth and defecate. If I wanted to listen to abuse, I'd go to PatRobertson.com and listen to them! I want people like you to stop abusing the forum. If you have a criticism, bring it forth but STAND BY IT. If you want to be an intellectual eunuch, go somewhere else.
The above is only my view. Whatever the mods decide, I will have to stick to this.
OMWe have separate beliefs. Get rid of your agenda.
As you can see, even in this forum this guy will try to slip in his agenda. Well spotted there, Navid.
ABI really have no problem with the enemy of Islam to post their crap in here as long as they are aware that some committed believers won't let that go easy, so if they want to degrade and defame the Quran, be our gusts and we will bomb you out with ease, i hope they have enugh stamina though
.I may not like your style but I certainly agree with the stamina bit.
Free-Minders, we're not talking about freedom here. Danish and Mehdi have to come to confuse the issue so that we miss the REAL issue at hand.
DECENCY!
You want to call AQ whatever, fine. But you're then responsible. If you do not answer the questions level at you, retract or leave. Simple as.
Why do I ask for this? Because AQ says
Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of God held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme if ye did, ye would be like them. For God will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell-(4/140)
The problem here is, while you're not sitting with them, THEY COME TO SIT WITH YOU while continuing their mockery (calling Muhammad a madman and AQ a mishmash of narrations are examples). I was told by a sincere sunni friend who I asked to read FM a while back about such a situation. She said that this forum deliberately allows these people to do this to confuse issues. I was then reminded of 4/85 which says I'm part of this. This is why Im raising the issue. It's not my intention to curtail freedom of thought, only freedom of behaviour.
- believers in this context are people who believe AQ is of divine origin. Its simply for ease of conversation, not used in the quranic sense.
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If we need more proof, we are told by some of these people that their indulgence in alcohol is OK and that they find triumph from influencing people to consume alcohol. Alcohol, part of al-khamr or intoxicants is the work of ASH-SHAITAAN and we are to steer clear away from it (5/90-91). If anyone disagrees with AQ, fine but should believers be made to listen to their satanic discourses in the believer's own area?
Are you referring to this thread http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5623.0 ?
Peace
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mquran you stated in two posts...
Do not let free-minds become TYRANNICAL-minds.
and
.... I used to criticise Dr Shabbir for his draconian style but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Being kind only gives them the scent of ur blood.
So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.
I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.
Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.
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So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.
I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.
That's incorrect. Let me state my position clearly
- I welcome all criticisms of AQ
- I want those who voice the criticisms to STAND and respond. This means they need to be responsible.
Do you have a problem with this? Do you think it's ok for people to come in, insult our beliefs and get away with it?
Dr Shabbir doesn't give two cents if you respond or not. If he doesn't like what you say, he deletes you. That's why I said 'but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Not sincere people who ask and answer with equal veracity but a certain type of troublemakers. Do read carefully, Truth. No amount of bombast will help if you can't read carefully.
Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.
Please explain why this is hypocrisy, to ask for a decent discussion. Further, please tell me where I've been a hypocrite before.
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Here's why Truth is riled up about my call to clean up the forum
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3007.0
This is where Truth decided that a verse was FALSE and plugged all sorts of nonsense to back it up. When I asked for QURANIC EVIDENCE, he of course went silent.
Truth is just a smarter version of Enquirer, hoping to push falsehoods about AQ without feeling the need to substantiate himself.
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Here's why Truth is riled up about my call to clean up the forum
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3007.0
This is where Truth decided that a verse was FALSE and plugged all sorts of nonsense to back it up. When I asked for QURANIC EVIDENCE, he of course went silent.
Truth is just a smarter version of Enquirer, hoping to push falsehoods about AQ without feeling the need to substantiate himself.
Brother
Oben is very well exposed, he is a sick hearted muslim who have no shame
don't worry about his rants bro
Cheers
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So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.
I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.
That's incorrect. Let me state my position clearly
- I welcome all criticisms of AQ
- I want those who voice the criticisms to STAND and respond. This means they need to be responsible.
Do you have a problem with this? Do you think it's ok for people to come in, insult our beliefs and get away with it?
Dr Shabbir doesn't give two cents if you respond or not. If he doesn't like what you say, he deletes you. That's why I said 'but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Not sincere people who ask and answer with equal veracity but a certain type of troublemakers. Do read carefully, Truth. No amount of bombast will help if you can't read carefully.
Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.
Please explain why this is hypocrisy, to ask for a decent discussion. Further, please tell me where I've been a hypocrite before.
mquran,
My criticism is towards your contradictory statements on the one hand advocating freedom of thought and on the other advocating the abhorrent censorship and "draconian" policies in place at Shabbir's forum which I am totally opposed to. He has a barrow to push, and I feel that your contradictory double-talk is unfortunately compromising the validity of your premise.
You are being hypocritical by advocating a tyrannical approach to stamp out supposed tyranny.
Here are my suggestions to those who are frustrated by the 'defecators'.
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Don't reply with a page or more of material to a single line or paragraph from these 'defecators'.
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Be aware of 'troll' behaviour. If you know anything about forums you'll know there are trolls. The best way to stop these trolls is to stop feeding them. I am amazed how many times people continually take the bait hook, line and sinker. Consider whether you have simply become a victim of trolling behaviour.
It is unfortunate that the trolls will 'defecate' on many worthwhile discussions and disrupt them. To fall for their traps is a sign of your weakness.
Please read more about trolls on wikipedia and learn what constitutes trolling behaviour.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
Please read that and see how much of the 'trouble' here is actually just unrecognised (by the naive members) trolling behaviour.
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Truth My criticism is towards your contradictory statements on the one hand advocating freedom of thought and on the other advocating the abhorrent censorship and "draconian" policies in place at Shabbir's forum which I am totally opposed to. He has a barrow to push, and I feel that your contradictory double-talk is unfortunately compromising the validity of your premise.
Wow, I can understand needing to explain this to Enquirer but to you? I'm VERY surprised. Ok, one more time for posterity
I do not care what people believe. I DO care about what I'm participating in. If I'm going to be 'sitting' with people who talk about AQ, I will expect AQ to be treated well. This is why I'm here instead of in some right-wing Christian forum.
Shabbir has a barrow to push, sure but you think you're barrow-free? Maybe you're asking some carte blanche to push YOUR agenda, who knows? The only way to determine this is to test veracity. If you something to say, back it up. Don't give us hot air and run. That's a sign for intellectual flatulence. And if I know you, you don't like that.
You are being hypocritical by advocating a tyrannical approach to stamp out supposed tyranny.
According to whom? AQ tells us to wipe out fasad fil ardh, mischief in the earth. Is this tyranny or a valid response?
Once again for the people who constantly miss my point
I'm asking for ETHICS IN DISCUSSION. Say what you want BUT BACK IT UP. Lets keep this forum Quranic and not full of the stuff coming through here.
Obviously, this is a suggestion which carries no weight until backed up by Admin and Mods.