The Tragedy of TYRANNICAL-minds (formerly 'free-minds')

truth

So you don't want this place to become "tyrannical" and yet you advocate a "draconian" style as Shabbir practises on his insignificant corner of the virtual world. He censors all discussion that does not suit his own agenda.

I think that's what you also mean. You want this place to be "free" for you to practise your own brand of tyranny.

That's incorrect. Let me state my position clearly

I welcome all criticisms of AQ
I want those who voice the criticisms to STAND and respond. This means they need to be responsible.

Do you have a problem with this? Do you think it's ok for people to come in, insult our beliefs and get away with it?

Dr Shabbir doesn't give two cents if you respond or not. If he doesn't like what you say, he deletes you. That's why I said 'but when faced with these type of guys, i think Shabbir has a lot of sense. Not sincere people who ask and answer with equal veracity but a certain type of troublemakers. Do read carefully, Truth. No amount of bombast will help if you can't read carefully.

Your hypocrisy as always, knows no shame.

Please explain why this is hypocrisy, to ask for a decent discussion. Further, please tell me where I've been a hypocrite before.

mquran,

My criticism is towards your contradictory statements on the one hand advocating freedom of thought and on the other advocating the abhorrent censorship and "draconian" policies in place at Shabbir's forum which I am totally opposed to. He has a barrow to push, and I feel that your contradictory double-talk is unfortunately compromising the validity of your premise.

You are being hypocritical by advocating a tyrannical approach to stamp out supposed tyranny.

Here are my suggestions to those who are frustrated by the 'defecators'.

Don't reply with a page or more of material to a single line or paragraph from these 'defecators'.
Be aware of 'troll' behaviour. If you know anything about forums you'll know there are trolls. The best way to stop these trolls is to stop feeding them. I am amazed how many times people continually take the bait hook, line and sinker. Consider whether you have simply become a victim of trolling behaviour.

It is unfortunate that the trolls will 'defecate' on many worthwhile discussions and disrupt them. To fall for their traps is a sign of your weakness.

Please read more about trolls on wikipedia and learn what constitutes trolling behaviour.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Please read that and see how much of the 'trouble' here is actually just unrecognised (by the naive members) trolling behaviour.

mquran

Truth My criticism is towards your contradictory statements on the one hand advocating freedom of thought and on the other advocating the abhorrent censorship and "draconian" policies in place at Shabbir's forum which I am totally opposed to. He has a barrow to push, and I feel that your contradictory double-talk is unfortunately compromising the validity of your premise.

Wow, I can understand needing to explain this to Enquirer but to you? I'm VERY surprised. Ok, one more time for posterity

I do not care what people believe. I DO care about what I'm participating in. If I'm going to be 'sitting' with people who talk about AQ, I will expect AQ to be treated well. This is why I'm here instead of in some right-wing Christian forum.

Shabbir has a barrow to push, sure but you think you're barrow-free? Maybe you're asking some carte blanche to push YOUR agenda, who knows? The only way to determine this is to test veracity. If you something to say, back it up. Don't give us hot air and run. That's a sign for intellectual flatulence. And if I know you, you don't like that.

You are being hypocritical by advocating a tyrannical approach to stamp out supposed tyranny.

According to whom? AQ tells us to wipe out fasad fil ardh, mischief in the earth. Is this tyranny or a valid response?

Once again for the people who constantly miss my point

I'm asking for ETHICS IN DISCUSSION. Say what you want BUT BACK IT UP. Lets keep this forum Quranic and not full of the stuff coming through here.

Obviously, this is a suggestion which carries no weight until backed up by Admin and Mods.

mquran

Truth Here are my suggestions to those who are frustrated by the 'defecators'.

Don't reply with a page or more of material to a single line or paragraph from these 'defecators'.
Be aware of 'troll' behaviour. If you know anything about forums you'll know there are trolls. The best way to stop these trolls is to stop feeding them. I am amazed how many times people continually take the bait hook, line and sinker. Consider whether you have simply become a victim of trolling behaviour.

It is unfortunate that the trolls will 'defecate' on many worthwhile discussions and disrupt them. To fall for their traps is a sign of your weakness.

This forum works in a way that the latest post 'pushes up' a thread. Trolls are remarkably prolific and so 'troll threads' will consistently at the top. Ignoring doesn't work.

truth

This forum works in a way that the latest post 'pushes up' a thread. Trolls are remarkably prolific and so 'troll threads' will consistently at the top. Ignoring doesn't work.

Nevertheless even your post here is a form of attention seeking troll behaviour. I hope you don't think that is unnoticed. I understand your post to be somewhat benevolent but even so it has spawned a flurry of replies and has wasted people's time including my own.

Perhaps you would do better by getting in line for a moderator's position and see whether you might get to wield the whip you are threatening to bring out.

Please do read the link about internet trolls which I'm sure you will find much information of use in your struggle against the trolls on this forum. Here it is again in case you overlooked my edit

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

mquran

TruthNevertheless even your post here is a form of attention seeking troll behaviour. I hope you don't think that is unnoticed. I understand your post to be somewhat benevolent but even so it has spawned a flurry of replies and has wasted people's time including my own.

I see. So when I call the believers including admin and moderators to stand up for what AQ calls for, a respect of God's signs, that's TROLL BEHAVIOUR? Did you delete some other verses besides 48/29 to come to that conclusion?

Perhaps you would do better by getting in line for a moderator's position and see whether you might get to wield the whip you are threatening to bring out.

I trust all the moderators are sincere people. There's no need for me to get in line for anything. Also, I've been repeating that I respect the moderators decision. If they don't have a problem with this thread, it doesnt matter in the least to me that you do.

truth

TruthNevertheless even your post here is a form of attention seeking troll behaviour. I hope you don't think that is unnoticed. I understand your post to be somewhat benevolent but even so it has spawned a flurry of replies and has wasted people's time including my own.

I see. So when I call the believers including admin and moderators to stand up for what AQ calls for, a respect of God's signs, that's TROLL BEHAVIOUR?

Thanks for the capitalisation but you missed the important part of the phrase which was ATTENTION SEEKING.

I trust that helps.

mquran

Truth Thanks for the capitalisation but you missed the important part of the phrase which was ATTENTION SEEKING

Why are you resorting to Enquirer-tactics now? The fact of the matter is, I am asking for the forum to be brought more in-line with AQ. I don't give a monkeys about your 'Netiquette for Dummies', Truth. If you want to call me an ATTENTION-SEEKING TROLL, that's your business. As far as I'm concerned, this matter NEEDS attention because this forum is and can be pivotal in making people aware of AQ. As far as I'm concerned, I'm asking for something to be brought closer to AQ. Of course you'll have a problem with that since you can't spew as freely as you'd like. It's very understandable and the good news is, you will probably have just that kind of forum.

wildguest1956

Danish, what is your goal at this forum?

To study, understand and discuss a historical book named Quran and not to cuss it out in the name of GOD like you and your cronies do?

If you want to study and understand the entire Quran, then do so with open-mindedness, from both its internal and external relevancies and realize the fact that it is nothing more than an ancient book. No need for condemnations and inflamatory declarations to support a man-made written book. To many, especially the radically and derainged Islamic fundamentalists, this book has become another GOD or IDOL.

Do you really think your goal is compatible with the one of this forum ?

2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to the study and understanding of the Scripture (Quran). Thus, mocking it or not being able to back-up claims with specifics will all result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1704.msg20398#msg20398

Peace

mquran

MQuran you ask me to bring forth an example of how you Quran thump.. the example is self evident (just as said before to you) in your own posts even on this thread alone... by using your own point of view you just jumbled up 4 members of this board, myself, enquirer, lote-tree, and danish... and have piegoned holed us into a group of people which you simply disagree with.. which in itself would be just fine.. but rather than just disagree, you sling dirt and insults such as calling kafir.. mohammadan etc.. (just as you have on this very thread)... and you work to demonize those who you disagree with.. while all of this is your own point of view.. you use your personal understanding of the Quran to justify your zeal to defame another human being...

Lie. Mehdi, do you get off on lying or does just your capacity to understand extend up to there?

I've never used the word 'kafir' to describe any of the 4 people you mention above. Kindly prove me wrong if you're truthful.

To me, judging with AQ, a 'kafir' must act with kufr in my horizons.

I consider you 4 people (or 3, since Enquirer and Lote-tree could well be the same person) as trouble-makers. You're not here to further discussions but to cause mischief. You're 'sect about nothing' rubbish is good evidence for this.

I disagree with this behaviour of yours... i find it to be overly common with religious zealouts of this world... also politicians such as GW Bush etc.. who are constantly saying you are either with me or against me... etc... your behaviour is no different than a bible thumper... except you use the Quran...

Another lie. I disagree with Kyle on a lot of his points, but I have no problem with him because he understands ETIQUETTE of discussion. He doesn't run like you guys or find gratification in provoking people like you do. So do quit these untruths, Mehdi.

I understand that you 'try' and judge others from the Guidence of Quran... however this has always been my point.. the quick trigger judgements that you make... are not fair nor are they rightous... your judgements are your own however you attempt to make them universal by applying your own interpetation of the Quran to them! (thus how you hide behind the Quran while simply insulting those who you disagree with)... this is where your behaviour starts to appear arrogant... and Quran thumping...

I judge the posters behaviour insofar as their effect on the forum. Of course, it would be my interpretation but what would you rather I evaluate the situation with? Jerry Seinfeld's philosophy?

You came and tried to strut your feathers last year with your 'sect about nothing' malarkey. Let me ask you, according to AQ, how would you judge YOUR behaviour? Provide evidence, ok.

also in your own use of language at times.. one can see your over confident self image, as well as your attempts to seperate Believers in seperate groups... the example of this on this thread has been the seperation and demonizing of 5 individuals (which is an classic MQuran witch hunt) and the use of "US" and "WE" which would shows you are too much involved with and intrested in seperating the Ummah into groups than intrested in bringing a form of Unity... as we see here

This is what comes when we judge according to Mehdi-muhammadanism. Wake up , Mehdi, there's no ummah here. This is how 'sect about nothing' came out. There's a group of people who get together in a forum to discuss. Some of us want to dig deep into AQ, other want to pretend as if they're Jerry Seinfeld's incarnation.

as before when it comes to sects... one criteria of being a sect is one which rejoyces in itself! meaning... one which feels that itself is the only right one... and by that it exludes others... and by that the sect demonizes others... this behaviour is simply working to seperate humans.. rather than Uniting...

Well done, well done. Only took a year. Tell me, what word in AQ corresponds with this please?

here you go.. once more I've taken the time to sit here and type out for you my sincere point of view.. you can accept it.. or you can not.. it is up to you.. but I will say... that I will not go round and round with you ... do as you wish.. but just make sure you're hungry.. cause by continuing to behave as you do.. slandering and demfaming... accusing your borthers and sisters as such.. you just might be eating allot of flesh of your dead brother.. 4912 (and as you demand explanations all of the time... your calling your brothers and sisters kafir.. mohammadan etc. is only a suspicious act on your own part for it's Allah that knows best not MQuran)

So far, I have spoken what I consider to be the truth. People have verified my claim that certain people have behaved inappropriately in this forum. If you're unhappy with that, the good news is, you're likely to continue to enjoy a chaotic forum where guys like you can continue to enjoy your verbal masturbation.

'Brothers and sisters' are defined in AQ by behaviour. You don't put on a 'muslim' name and suddenly you're my brother. Please do start reading AQ instead of that sunni stuff you keep peddling.

mquran

Clearly you don't understand the concept of admission. You ADMITTED to coming here and causing fitna. So how am I supposed to judge u then?

Its different if u came and said 'AQ said follow hadith'. I couldnt possibly call you anything then but if it came from your mouth, what other evidence do I need?

Do you DENY saying that you aimed to cause chaos with your thread?

Next, where is the evidence for your usage of the word 'sect'. Do you consider AQ the criteria ? If so, bring forward your evidence.

Lastly, please tell me how to evaluate people ACCORDING TO AQ? I await your answers, sir.

mquran

MehdiI'm happy to see that my lil mustard seed has grown into so much mustard that all the weenies of the board felt like dipping themselves into it. rotfl

He's happy to cause fitna and he's still here to uphold the freedom to cause fitna. Open up your AQ's and look it up, who are these people?

mquran

Mehdilook bro.. it's clear that my point regarding how you insult others has been made.. as you see you have even been temp. banned because of it... this was my why i jumped into this thread..

as for sects.. fitna... hadith..etc.. i have no problems conversing with you mquran.. except that i find you will never be satified with my point of view.. your accusation of me "peddling sunni stuff" is so far off of it's mark.. that it is very clear to me that there is very little value in discussing these with you..

you keep accusing me of many things.. which are simply not true.. one of your accusations is my name.. i've told you before.. i am iranian.. what do you think my name really is Mquran? this is an accusation which you have no proof of... however you keep making it.. why?

lets start here..

peace...
Sorry had to repost here with your previous post since you deleted it.

Don't worry about ethnic origin and stuff since I don't believe unless I can verify. If you choose to be in peace, I will accept your peace and offer my peace. Grouping you with the axis-of-quran-rejectors was just because of how you guys discuss. If you discuss amicably, how could you be of that group?

That's all Im asking for here responsible, amicable discussion.

Navid

That's all Im asking for here responsible, amicable discussion.

Seconded.

splatter

I'm new to this God Alone thingy and have spend weeks reading this forum. I don't see any tyrannical minds but opposing views. And I think it's healthy to have such views. Also, I'm interested to read such views but maybe that's just me.

stillearning

Salaam all
The problem is not those who are outright in their criticism of the Quran for they are easy to spot and deal with or to be ignored. My issue is with those on this forum (including some of the moderators) who have specific agenda to subtly distort Islam (No salaat, Haj in Timbuktu, Mohd never existed-making up history as you go along appears to be the flavour of the month). Any how as usual i have allowed myself to be distracted from what i wanted to say which simply was

BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD (Gandhi) peace
Regards

re

truth

mquran,

You have again shown your contradictory nature by saying firstly to me...

I don't give a monkeys about your 'Netiquette for Dummies', Truth.

rejecting the advice I have given you and then stating shortly after...

I disagree with Kyle on a lot of his points, but I have no problem with him because he understands ETIQUETTE of discussion.

So how do you go from not giving a "monkeys" about etiquette to appreciating it?

Reading your posts reveals a highly contradictory nature, and in many instances you project your own weaknesses fancifully upon others. You cannot excuse yourself by covering up your flawed character with an alleged "AQ" approach. Your incoherence and repeated contradictions, undermines any other thing of (limited) value you may post.

mquran

Stilllearning The problem is not those who are outright in their criticism of the Quran for they are easy to spot and deal with or to be ignored. My issue is with those on this forum (including some of the moderators) who have specific agenda to subtly distort Islam (No salaat, Haj in Timbuktu, Mohd never existed-making up history as you go along appears to be the flavour of the month).

I have to say SL that this kind of free-mindedness is what makes FM what it is. Other forums including Shabbirs, IIPC, Toluislam (to a much lesser extent) will never tolerate such questions. The Questions aren't the problem. The problem lies with standing up to one's views or the guts to say 'I dont have evidence, this is just my feeling'. There are people here who bring forward views without deigning to back them up. They even say this verse is false, that verse is false and when evidence is asked, they don't think its worth giving. Yes, THAT'S a problem and such people should be removed for distorting AQ.

Historically, Timbuktu was the centre of a Muhammadan civilisation, so yes its quite possible was there.

mquran

Truth So how do you go from not giving a "monkeys" about etiquette to appreciating it?

Truth, I have to introduce you to something. Now brace yourself, because this is heavy. It's an alphabet. It's called 'N'. It can make a difference as with this example

I don't give a monkeys about your 'Netiquette for Dummies', Truth

Say it after me...Netiquette, NOT Etiquette. Your netiquette is this case refers to your 'attention seeking troll' phrase. AQ contradicts it but not that you care, you probably remove whatever verse doesn't suit you.

I disagree with Kyle on a lot of his points, but I have no problem with him because he understands ETIQUETTE of discussion

Now see, this doesn't have the letter 'n' thus making it plain old 'etiquette'. It refers to how one conducts oneself, in this case a discussion.

Reading your posts reveals a highly contradictory nature, and in many instances you project your own weaknesses fancifully upon others. You cannot excuse yourself by covering up your flawed character with an alleged "AQ" approach. Your incoherence and repeated contradictions, undermines any other thing of (limited) value you may post

I ask you to bring the many intances if you're truthful.

I ask you to bring my contradictions forth and to answer any answers which I gave to that acccusation, as in this thread. We'll break it down logically together, if you care to back up your claims.

It's really sad when a man of your intelligence has to scrape the bottom of the barrel like this. Are you so devoid of arguments now?

The truth is you want an implicit permission to defecate your views here. Where else could a man of your megalomania do it? Presuming to DELETE VERSES from AQ without evidence. Do yourself a favour..'truth' doesn't suit you. How about 'falsehood' ?

unknownuser

What is criticism? Lets have a closer look

The act of criticizing, especially adversely.
A critical comment or judgment.
a. The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
b. A critical article or essay; a critique.
c. The investigation of the origin and history of literary documents; textual criticism.

As far as his ?allowing and fairness of criticisms? is concerned, here?s what mquran said

This is NOT a suggestion to stop stop allowing criticisms of AQ. Criticisms of AQ can help us to see just how invulnerable AQ is.
Rather, this is a suggestion to insert fairness into a discussion.

Criticism is a good thing.

There's no harm per se in saying 'AQ is an old book, not suitable for modern times'

When I and Enquirer mentioned this very statement above, he jumped head-over-heels in defiance and here he is saying that ?there?s no harm?.

These criticism which mquran fancies in all ?fairness into a discussion? becomes defecations and urinations onto Quran, hence his brutal condemnation

The issue is, very simply, that people are coming, DEFECATING or URINATING metaphorically on what the believers* consider the book of God. I use these strong words because if one aimed to clarify or criticise, one should stick around for the answers. Be responsible, not scum.

Danish is a good example of a defecator.

It's difficult for me to sit by and watch AQ being lied about.

When you stop lying about the Quran yourself, others will follow.

It's time for me to hibernate again, with my own projects etc. For the believers in this forum, lets think about how we can clean up this forum. If we cannot do it via authority, perhaps a show of solidarity?

He wants to hibernate but at the same time he wants a total evaporation of all un-quranists, which includes all sunnies and shias, as well as all other believers in GOD (just about the entire world ? over 6 billion people). In contrast, he advocates criticism but then opposes them. If this is not insane, coming out of a ?prophet of doom?, then what is?

These are provocative responses. Rather, you could go 'I disagree' and move on.

Here he advocates others to simply proclaim ?I disagree? without having to explain what he/she is disagreeing about and then grunts about not being explanatory or being vague or ?hit and run or hide?. So then, when someone explains his/her disagreement, these become ?provocative responses?. Even a dead horse will wake up to smell such nonsense.

You're not here to further discussions but to cause mischief.

Mquran delivers an unwarranted dilemma to vein out of and divert attention from subject matter and then boasts about ?ETIQUETTE of discussion? and then blaming others of causing mischief. This thread itself is just one of his ways to cause mischief among all members colorfully painting his own ?ETIQUETTE of discussion?. This happens quite often when he becomes defenseless or unable to confront direct criticism, since they become a ?threat? to his alleged supreme yet embarrassing knowledge and understanding of the Quran. He is even more threatened when someone brings about external sources to explain its internal relevancy; historical facts to support a historical book.

He also diverted attention from calling upon moderated debates for which he himself was jumping around like a monkey all over the forum, whining and bickering about it and for crying out loud to moderators again and again like baby crying for milk. He seemed scared to death when I subjected him to one of the conditions being met and deliberately went on rampage. I assure him that he won?t pass my very first session of quranic criticism and he has no idea what I am going to talk about. He thinks that a kid like OpenMind will bring a stupid one and make his life easier. The three contradictions/inconsistencies that were bought about have yet to be constructively analyzed and defended and not washed away by flowery discourses, apples and bananas and blah, blahs.

That's all Im asking for here responsible, amicable discussion.

This is not found in your ?dictionary?. Just dream on.

Finally, mquran can't seem to comperhend that there is a "Critical Examination of Islam" section for the purpose of what he calls defecations and urinations as criticisms. Here, let me feed this poor unwilling and arrogant kid to understand what the headings state

"What is the nature of God?"
(For those who question/doubt the nature/existence of a Creator.)

and

"Quranic Divinity"
(For those who question/doubt the authenticity, authorship and relevance of the Scripture.)

If you are not interested in constructive criticism of Quranic Divinity, then refrain and avoid yourself from further embarrasment without bickering and blabbing around all over the forum advocating mischief, resentment and condemnation. Let those who want to better discuss these issues come forward. It is as simple as that.

Mquran, watch this video once again and contemplate on the mirrored effects you?re thumping about
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBplylx55Zc&mode=related&search=mullah

You seriously need is a psychiatric help.

mquran

DanishYou seriously need is a psychiatric help.

Those madrassa people really should import a qualified english teacher.

What is criticism? Lets have a closer look

The act of criticizing, especially adversely.
A critical comment or judgment.
a. The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
b. A critical article or essay; a critique.
c. The investigation of the origin and history of literary documents; textual criticism

Your dictionary is not my furqaan. My furqaan is AQ and its concept of jidaal/argumention doesnt include part 3c. It's sad that your limited capacities cannot grasp this, but hey-ho.

Quote
There's no harm per se in saying 'AQ is an old book, not suitable for modern times'
When I and Enquirer mentioned this very statement above, he jumped head-over-heels in defiance and here he is saying that ?there?s no harm?.

Did you madrassa teach you to lie or did they forget to teach you how read complete paragraphs? Here's what I said

Criticism is a good thing. There's no harm per se in saying 'AQ is an old book, not suitable for modern times' but if you're going to say it, stand by it. What is modernity and why is it our criteria? This the critics of AQ have refused to face. This isn't about accepting AQ as divine, this is about decency.

It's only a low and deceptive person who would use such tactics. You're really the bottom of the barrel, Danish.