What is a jinn ?
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Peace JM,
One thing that everyone here might want to consider is that the stone cubic blocks (such as the one in present day Mecca) were called "jinn" blocks. Why is that? I think this small clue plus logically analyzing 3440-41 and 5319-27 further clarifies the meaning of "jinn".
You migh wish to consider the following post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4434.msg64036#msg64036I think the issue with your post is that you make good observations about the relationship between Chapter 53 and 3440-41. The observation is that Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are considered controllers by those who don't have faith when in reality they are "jinn". But then you draw a conclusion that is not relevant to the good observation that you made earlier. Your conclusion that "jinn" are leaders is irrelevant because certainly Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are not leaders. They are inert objects and any "power" attributed to them is only the result of human imagination. So they are in fact a product of the human fantasy/imagination. This is why their abstract (i.e., imaginary) representation is called "jinn" block. This is further proof that "jinn" simply means "fantasy".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace JM,
One thing that everyone here might want to consider is that the stone cubic blocks (such as the one in present day Mecca) were called "jinn" blocks. Why is that? I think this small clue plus logically analyzing 3440-41 and 5319-27 further clarifies the meaning of "jinn".
You migh wish to consider the following post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4434.msg64036#msg64036I think the issue with your post is that you make good observations about the relationship between Chapter 53 and 3440-41. The observation is that Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are considered controllers by those who don't have faith when in reality they are "jinn". But then you draw a conclusion that is not relevant to the good observation that you made earlier. Your conclusion that "jinn" are leaders is irrelevant because certainly Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are not leaders. They are inert objects and any "power" attributed to them is only the result of human imagination. So they are in fact a product of the human fantasy/imagination. This is why their abstract (i.e., imaginary) representation is called "jinn" block. This is further proof that "jinn" simply means "fantasy".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I never said that Allat, Aluzza and Manat were leaders.
They were idols created and maintained by the chiefs (the jinn) to subject the commoners.
The chiefs (jinn) made the commoners believe they served/worshipped Allat, Aluzza and Manat, whereas in fact, the commoners, while serving/worshiping these deities were actually serving their chiefs (jinn).This is IMHO the real lesson of the verse , and it is confirmed by anthropology
Chiefs actually didn't serve the public; they duped the public into serving them, and religion was part of the duping. As one archaeologist puts it, "Chiefs coopt the religious authority of the community for themselves."
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93521#msg93521You may know that the scene of chiefs having control over commoners is omnipresent in the Quran. In addition, another trick used by the chiefs to maintain control over the commoners was to erect a language barrier. Does it not sound familiar to you ?
Peace
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Peace JM,
I never said that Allat, Aluzza and Manat were leaders.
I never said that you said that. We agree that Allat, Aluzza and Manat are not leaders. We also agree that Allat, Aluzza and Manat are "jinn" (as per Chapter 53 and 34;40-41). So the conclusion must be that "jinn" are not leaders. If you want to find out what "jinn" really are then find out what "Allat, Aluzza and Manat" really are. One of the brothers here pointed out to me that there must be a reason why we are told specifically about those idols in the great reading while many other ancient Arabian idols are not mentioned. The God knew that those idols would continue to be relevant to this day as evident from the pagan rituals going on in so-called Mecca.
They were idols created and maintained by the chiefs (the jinn) to subject the commoners.
The chiefs (jinn) made the commoners believe they served/worshipped Allat, Aluzza and Manat, whereas in fact, the commoners, while serving/worshiping these deities were actually serving their chiefs (jinn).Here is how the above statement needs to be modified to bring it in line with the observations you made about Chapter 53 and 3440-41
They were "jinn" created and maintained by the chiefs (the jinn) to subject the commoners.
The chiefs (jinn) made the commoners believe they served/worshipped the controllers, Allat, Aluzza and Manat, whereas in fact, the commoners, while serving/worshiping these deities were actually serving "jinn" created by their chiefs (jinn).The "jinn" is something created by the chiefs NOT the chiefs themselves. This is confirmed by 2917 where Ibrahim describes a similar situation
- But what you serve other than The God are idols and you create falsehood. What you serve other than The God do not control for you any sustenance, therefore seek the sustenance at the God and serve Him and be grateful to Him; to Him you shall be returned.
You may know that the scene of chiefs having control over commoners is omnipresent in the Quran. In addition, another trick used by the chiefs to maintain control over the commoners was to erect a language barrier. Does it not sound familiar to you ?
The question is how do the chiefs have control over commoners. A language barrier is erected to keep people away from the truth. The chiefs maintain control over people by creating falsehood. How do people create things? It is by using their imagination/fantasy. This "creativity" is what is described in 2917, 6112, etc.
Another link to 3440-41 and Chapter 53 is in 4117 where we are told on the one hand that the idolaters don't call upon except females and on the other hand they don't call upon except one exceeding the limits who decorates. At first glance the two statements seem contradictory. The only way to reconcile them is is the females (Allat, Al3uzza and Manat) and the one exceeding the limits who decorates are the same. Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are fantasies produced by an imagination that is exceeding the limits and creatively decorates falsehood.
In passages such as 3130 and 2262 we are told that what they are calling upon is false. Of course something that is false is not real.
This is further confirmed by 2942 where we are told that what the idolaters call upon is in fact "nothing", i.e. it is not real.
The chiefs are certainly real. It is the fantasies of the chiefs that are not real. So in the case of chiefs (ins), it is the chiefs' fantasies (jinn) that people are serving. So you are close.
It is the interaction between the humans (ins) and their fantasies (jinn) that produces falsehood. There is no other way that falsehood can be produced.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace JM,
Peace Ayman
I never said that Allat, Aluzza and Manat were leaders.
I never said that you said that. We agree that Allat, Aluzza and Manat are not leaders.
OK
We also agree that Allat, Aluzza and Manat are "jinn" (as per Chapter 53 and 34;40-41).
No, we don?t agree on that. It is your opinion, not mine.
They were idols created and maintained by the chiefs (the jinn) to subject the commoners.
The chiefs (jinn) made the commoners believe they served/worshipped Allat, Aluzza and Manat, whereas in fact, the commoners, while serving/worshiping these deities were actually serving their chiefs (jinn).Here is how the above statement needs to be modified to bring it in line with the observations you made about Chapter 53 and 3440-41
They were "jinn" created and maintained by the chiefs (the jinn) to subject the commoners.
The chiefs (jinn) made the commoners believe they served/worshipped the controllers, Allat, Aluzza and Manat, whereas in fact, the commoners, while serving/worshiping these deities were actually serving "jinn" created by their chiefs (jinn).The "jinn" is something created by the chiefs NOT the chiefs themselves. This is confirmed by 2917 where Ibrahim describes a similar situation
- But what you serve other than The God are idols and you create falsehood. What you serve other than The God do not control for you any sustenance, therefore seek the sustenance at the God and serve Him and be grateful to Him; to Him you shall be returned.
This verse says that the idols/statues (awthanan) the people of Abraham worshipped had no power. But it does not says anything about the jinn.
You may know that the scene of chiefs having control over commoners is omnipresent in the Quran. In addition, another trick used by the chiefs to maintain control over the commoners was to erect a language barrier. Does it not sound familiar to you ?
The question is how do the chiefs have control over commoners. A language barrier is erected to keep people away from the truth. The chiefs maintain control over people by creating falsehood. How do people create things? It is by using their imagination/fantasy. This "creativity" is what is described in 2917, 6112, etc.
You can find many verses in the quran where it is said that the commoners serve (give ibadah to) their leaders, making them partners of God.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0Another one
The Jews said ?Ezra is God?s son,? and the Nazarenes said ?The Messiah is God?s son.? Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God will fight them. They are deluded from the truth! They took their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god but He, be He glorified for what they set up.
The story in is but another example of this pattern The chiefs fabricate idols for the commoners. The commoners, while serving their idols, are actually serving their chiefs.
Here are some proofs that the jinn cannot be fantasies
?And there were men from among the ins who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only helped increase them in sin.?
In these verse, it is crystal clear that the jinn are the leaders who help/protect the commnoers, and give them false beliefs (increasing them in sin).
Look at the expression rijalin mina aljinni. Does ?men among the fantasies? make sense ?
Obviously not. It makes no more sense than ?men among the genies?.And We have committed to Hell many Jinn and ins; they had hearts with which they did not comprehend, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like cattle; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.
A fantasy has not a heart, it has not eyes nor ears.
?O you tribes of Jinn and ins, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Here, we lean that the jinn and the ins belong to the same community (mashar). It makes sense only if we consider the jinn are human beings.
On that Day, no more questioning is asked of ins or Jinn as to his sins.
Can a fantasy commit sins ?
Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that He has created them. And the word of your Lord came true ?I will fill Hell with the Jinn and the ins together!?
Can a fantasy go to hell ?
A powerful being from among the jinn said ?I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy.?
How can a fantasy say something ?
Manifestly, the translation of the word jinn by "fantasy" "can fit only in . In the other verses, it leads to meaningless statements.
Peace
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Peace JM,
We also agree that Allat, Aluzza and Manat are "jinn" (as per Chapter 53 and 34;40-41).
No, we don?t agree on that. It is your opinion, not mine.
So what is your point about bringing up Chapter 53 and 3440-41. Nowhere in those passages are "leaders" mentioned or alluded to.
- But what you serve other than The God are idols and you create falsehood. What you serve other than The God do not control for you any sustenance, therefore seek the sustenance at the God and serve Him and be grateful to Him; to Him you shall be returned.
This verse says that the idols/statues (awthanan) the people of Abraham worshipped had no power. But it does not says anything about the jinn.
It says that those "awathan" (idols, like Allat, Al3uzza and Manat) that people served are not controllers (do not control) exactly like 3440-41. So the question arises, if they are not controllers, then what are they? They are "jinn"/fantasies.
You can find many verses in the quran where it is said that the commoners serve (give ibadah to) their leaders, making them partners of God.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0
Another one
The Jews said ?Ezra is God?s son,? and the Nazarenes said ?The Messiah is God?s son.? Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God will fight them. They are deluded from the truth! They took their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god but He, be He glorified for what they set up.The problem here is not with "leaders". There is nothing inherently wrong with "leaders". The problem is with the people taking leaders, Jesus, or whoever as lords besides The God. The question is why do they do it? Because they have faith in the fantasies that they and/or their leaders imagined. So the leader to them is not a regular human (reality) but is a supernatural savior (a fantasy).
But according to you, "jinn" are leaders. So I guess I am a "jinn" because I am a leader of my company while the janitor may not be. Now 930-31 is interesting because it talks about people taking Jesus with the religious leaders as lords. Now certainly Jesus as well as many saints that people serve are dead so now you have a dead "jinn" misguiding people. How can that be? It is of course impossible. However, the fantasy about Jesus being the son of god is still going.
The story in is but another example of this pattern The chiefs fabricate idols for the commoners. The commoners, while serving their idols, are actually serving their chiefs.
It is clear from the passage that they are serving their idols but there is nothing in there about serving the real chiefs. The real chiefs are just regular humans. However, you are right that they may serve "imagined" supernatural chiefs.
Here are some proofs that the jinn cannot be fantasies
?And there were men from among the ins who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only helped increase them in sin.?
In these verse, it is crystal clear that the jinn are the leaders who help/protect the commnoers, and give them false beliefs (increasing them in sin).
Look at the expression rijalin mina aljinni. Does ?men among the fantasies? make sense ?
Obviously not. It makes no more sense than ?men among the genies?.Of course, men from the fantasies are not real but we know for certian that they occur. Have you ever heard of people who have an imaginary friend? I personally know a few people who take such friends. People who seek help from such imaginary men are certainly not going to be better off.
And We have committed to Hell many Jinn and ins; they had hearts with which they did not comprehend, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like cattle; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.
A fantasy has not a heart, it has not eyes nor ears.The passage talks about the "jinn" and "ins" together have a heart, eyes and ears. Do you think with your heart or with your mind? Think about it. Why do people say that artists (imaginative people) think with their hearts?
?O you tribes of Jinn and ins, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?? They said ?Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;? and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.
Here, we lean that the jinn and the ins belong to the same community (mashar). It makes sense only if we consider the jinn are human beings.The word "ma3shar" means "consorts", i.e. living closely together all the time. Do you have a human leader with you all the time wherever you go? If you don't remember The God do you have an exceeding the limit leader attached to you everywhere, in your bed, while showering and at work as per 4336-38?
On that Day, no more questioning is asked of ins or Jinn as to his sins.
Can a fantasy commit sins ?Yes. Fantasies sin all the time. In fact, fantasies sin is what drives people to sin. A thief fantasize about getting money easily and spending it on bad things before he or she actually steals. An adulterer fantasizes about illicit sex before he or she actually commits it. Do you think that such fantasies are hidden from The God? Do you think that people will not be accountable for what they fantasize. No, there is nothing, including our deepest fantasies, that is hidden from The God.
Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that He has created them. And the word of your Lord came true ?I will fill Hell with the Jinn and the ins together!?
Can a fantasy go to hell ?Yes. We are told that "jinn"/fantasies are the fuel of hell. This means that hell is the worst thing imaginable.
A powerful being from among the jinn said ?I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy.?
How can a fantasy say something ?How can anything that our imagination creates say and bring anything? How can an airplane (the product of the imagination of engineers) fly and bring us cargo? How can the imagination of the engineers say "I will create a plane that travels at the speed of sound"? It is an indisputable fact that all the technology that we have is a result of our imagination/fantasy.
Manifestly, the translation of the word jinn by "fantasy" "can fit only in . In the other verses, it leads to meaningless statements.
As I demonstrated "jinn" as fantasy fits everywhere the word is used. I would appreciate it if you find other occurrences where it may not.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace JM,
Peace Ayman
We also agree that Allat, Aluzza and Manat are "jinn" (as per Chapter 53 and 34;40-41).
No, we don?t agree on that. It is your opinion, not mine.
So what is your point about bringing up Chapter 53 and 3440-41. Nowhere in those passages are "leaders" mentioned or alluded to.
My point was to show that, in these verses, the word malaika was referring to the deities (Allat, Aluzza and Manat) to which people (falsely) attribute power.
See again http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4434.msg64036#msg64036
- But what you serve other than The God are idols and you create falsehood. What you serve other than The God do not control for you any sustenance, therefore seek the sustenance at the God and serve Him and be grateful to Him; to Him you shall be returned.
This verse says that the idols/statues (awthanan) the people of Abraham worshipped had no power. But it does not says anything about the jinn.
It says that those "awathan" (idols, like Allat, Al3uzza and Manat) that people served are not controllers (do not control) exactly like 3440-41. So the question arises, if they are not controllers, then what are they? They are "jinn"/fantasies.
The people of these times believed that their deities (Allat, Aluzza and Manat) had power. So, they called these deities malaika.
Since God uses their language, God calls them malaika too, even though, in truth, they have no power.
You can find many verses in the quran where it is said that the commoners serve (give ibadah to) their leaders, making them partners of God.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0
Another one
The Jews said ?Ezra is God?s son,? and the Nazarenes said ?The Messiah is God?s son.? Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God will fight them. They are deluded from the truth! They took their Priests and Monks to be patrons besides God, and the Messiah son of Mary, while they were only commanded to serve One god, there is no god but He, be He glorified for what they set up.The problem here is not with "leaders". There is nothing inherently wrong with "leaders". The problem is with the people taking leaders, Jesus, or whoever as lords besides The God. The question is why do they do it? Because they have faith in the fantasies that they and/or their leaders imagined. So the leader to them is not a regular human (reality) but is a supernatural savior (a fantasy).
But according to you, "jinn" are leaders. So I guess I am a "jinn" because I am a leader of my company while the janitor may not be. Now 930-31 is interesting because it talks about people taking Jesus with the religious leaders as lords. Now certainly Jesus as well as many saints that people serve are dead so now you have a dead "jinn" misguiding people. How can that be? It is of course impossible. However, the fantasy about Jesus being the son of god is still going.
My stance is that the word jinn is used in the Quran to refer to the chiefs in a chiefdom organization. These chiefs were mundane as well as religious chiefs. They fabricated false beliefs, false idols, to dupe their commoners and profit from them.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93519#msg93519
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0The story in is but another example of this pattern The chiefs fabricate idols for the commoners. The commoners, while serving their idols, are actually serving their chiefs.
It is clear from the passage that they are serving their idols but there is nothing in there about serving the real chiefs. The real chiefs are just regular humans. However, you are right that they may serve "imagined" supernatural chiefs.
The pattern I have explained above can be found in multiples verses of the Quran.
And, assuming the word jinn refer to the chiefs, matches this pattern.
Thus, jinn=chiefs fits very well in this verse.As I demonstrated "jinn" as fantasy fits everywhere the word is used. I would appreciate it if you find other occurrences where it may not.
Ayman, does a sentence like ?Quadruplicity drinks procrastination.? makes sense to you ?
To my mind, it makes no sense, because
This is an example of what is sometimes called a ?pseudo-sentence." It may at first glance appear to be a sentence, at least in light of the criteria we may have been taught in secondary school for recognizing whether an utterance is a sentence. After all, it has a recognizable English noun in what we recognize as the subject slot, a recognizable English transitive verb in what we recognize as the verb slot, and another recognizable English noun in what we recognize as the direct object slot. But it fails to make any sense, because (as it turns out) more is required for sense than meeting the conditions just cited. Let?s analyze exactly what these essential conditions are that go unmet in the present case. As we shall see, certain "category constraints" are violated. We are confronted with two distinct instances of this.
"Drinking" is an action that can only be done, in the strictest sense, by non-aquatic animals with mouths (i.e., not by fish or amoebae or grass) or, in a somewhat extended sense, only by beings with mouths or, in a sense more extended still, by living things. Hence the verb "to drink" -- depending on the particular sense in which is being used -- requires as its agent something that has the logical property of falling into one or the other of these categories. Now as it happens, all of these categories in turn fall within the larger category of concrete things.
The term "quadruplicity" refers to the quality of being four-fold - shared by squares, rectangles, pairs of bisexual "swinging" married couples, dollar-stacks of quarters, etc. The suffix "-icity" marks this word as denoting an abstract quality. Since the set of abstract qualities and the set of concrete objects do not intersect - something is either one or the other, but cannot be both - quadruplicity falls outside the category of things that can perform the category of action known as drinking. To posit "quadruplicity" as the doer of the deed "drinking" is therefore to commit a category violation.
Moreover, drinking can only be done to objects that have the property of being ingestible. While we can (unfortunately) drink hydrochloric acid, we cannot drink molten steel - to say nothing of I-beams, concrete slabs, toast, computers, electronic spreadsheets, wonderment, understanding, or personality traits - all of which, for different reasons, fall outside the category of ingestible liquids.
Procrastination is the disposition to put off until later things that ought to be done sooner rather than later. Hence it lacks the logical traits that would make it eligible to be conceived as the object of the action of drinking. The transitive verb/object combination "drink procrastination" therefore constitutes another category error. Procrastination is the sort of thing that could be forsworn (or that a person could refuse to forswear). It can be given in to (or not given in to). But it can?t be drunk (or, for that matter, not drunk it is equally nonsense to say, "I haven?t had any procrastination to drink today."
http//www.k-state.edu/english/baker/english320/cc-category_violation.htmIn the same way the act of ?committing sins? (or ?going to hell?) can only be done by beings endowed with free will. It cannot be done by animals, plants, nor objects (they are not endowed with free will). And it cannot be done by emotions, actions, or thoughts (they are not beings).
Another example ?men among the commoners? makes perfect sense. ?men among the chiefs? too. But ?men among the emotions?, ?men among the thoughts?, or ?men among the fantasies? are a blatant category violation.
If it is not self-evident to you, I am sorry no way is left to us but to agree to disagree.
Peace
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Peace JM,
If it is not self-evident to you, I am sorry no way is left to us but to agree to disagree.
I think that we will come to an agreement when you realize that in passages such as 1850 it doesn't make any sense that one of the human leaders is the one that refused to submit to the humans. Also, if we apply your meaning to 1850, then human leaders and their descendents are enemies to human kind.
Again, you fail to realize the implications of making human leaders "jinn" and the many passages such as 1850 that would become nonsensical as a result. You have to realize that everyone is a leader to one extent or another, whether it is at work, home, etc. For example, if you are a father then you are a leader of your kids. I hope that this is not to difficult to realize.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace JM,
If it is not self-evident to you, I am sorry no way is left to us but to agree to disagree.
I think that we will come to an agreement when you realize that in passages such as 1850 it doesn't make any sense that one of the human leaders is the one that refused to submit to the humans. Also, if we apply your meaning to 1850, then human leaders and their descendents are enemies to human kind.
Again, you fail to realize the implications of making human leaders "jinn" and the many passages such as 1850 that would become nonsensical as a result. You have to realize that everyone is a leader to one extent or another, whether it is at work, home, etc. For example, if you are a father then you are a leader of your kids. I hope that this is not to difficult to realize.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
My stance is that the word jinn is used in the Quran to refer to the chiefs in a chiefdom organization. These chiefs were mundane as well as religious chiefs. They fabricated false beliefs, false idols, to dupe their commoners and profit from them.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93519#msg93519
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0Peace
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Peace all
I believe in the literal version of Jinns beings.
See my post
Bro Ayman,
I posted this somewhere else. I am adding to it
Most of your arguments and proofs I can follow.
The only one I cannot is your interpretations of Jinns being human fantasies, and believe me I read through it very thoroughly....
Here I agree to disagree with you.
I do accept that us humans have fantasies, have a dark side, are sentient beings given the ability to make certain choices within restricted bubbles or spheres of influence, and that there is a soul within each one of us that we know little about...
However like us in my understanding, Jinns are creatures who have fantasies, have a dark side, are sentient beings given the ability to make certain choices within restricted bubbles or spheres of influence, just that their spheres of influence is bigger than ours, like a higher dimension which includes ours. This is why they can operate without us seeing them, unless they choose to operate fully in our dimension.
That a snake is likened to a Jinn is evidence for me that Jinns can also shape shift.
Someone touched by a Jinn will exhibit signs of insanity. But signs of insanity do not necessarily mean having been touched by a Jinn, though one can use the expression majnoon to label it, such are languages with their use and abuse...
Believing in the existence of Jinns is completely different from worshipping Jinns (or believing in them if it means that). My understanding is that Allah is warning us from the devil ones of these creatures, also that we are priviledged into being given an insight into Allah's unseen creation such as the Jinns and the Angels.
My opinion, and take it as you may, but I mean no disrespect whatsoever is that you started off you article brilliantly using logical and archeological proofs about idol worship in some so-called muslim practices, then got side-tracked with the Jinns issue which cannot be proved or disproved as it is in the realm of the unseen such as angels, and the soul.
Believe me we can argue ad-nauseum and ad-infinitum about this, and it will only be the one with the cleverest retort who will have the last word, without managing to change the belief of the other...
However Archelogical and scientific proofs are facts which cannot be denied, this is why I could follow you, but you lost me with equating jinns to imagination/fantasy.
As I said I read your arguments very thoroughly, and more thoroughly than any other arguments in this forum, but they did not convince me that Jinns were imagination/fantasies.
Salam again
Noble
And Allah knows best.
PS You convinced me on many other points in your posts thoughPPS Is it not amazing that we have three interpretations
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Peace Noble,
I believe in the literal version of Jinns beings.
I too consider "jinn" to be beings. Please remember that all of The God's creations are "beings", even mountains.
Most of your arguments and proofs I can follow.
The only one I cannot is your interpretations of Jinns being human fantasies, and believe me I read through it very thoroughly....
Here I agree to disagree with you.
I do accept that us humans have fantasies, have a dark side, are sentient beings given the ability to make certain choices within restricted bubbles or spheres of influence, and that there is a soul within each one of us that we know little about...Do you agree that humans who follow "shaytan"/deviant "jinn" do bad things?
Do you think that people do bad things because they follow their deviant fantasy or because they follow some shape-shifting aliens?
Ask yourself, when you personally do something bad, why do you do it? The great reading and everything in it is directly relevant to our lives. Does it seem to you that "jinn" are always "someone else's" problem?
However like us in my understanding, Jinns are creatures who have fantasies, have a dark side, are sentient beings given the ability to make certain choices within restricted bubbles or spheres of influence, just that their spheres of influence is bigger than ours, like a higher dimension which includes ours. This is why they can operate without us seeing them, unless they choose to operate fully in our dimension.
That a snake is likened to a Jinn is evidence for me that Jinns can also shape shift.The "jinn" operate in our dimension as much as brainwaves (energy) operate in our dimension. Brainwave energy that is measurable when people fantasize is much more real than shape-shifting aliens visiting from another dimension that no one ever measured or saw (except in their fantasy).
When someone throws his stick on the ground and it starts shaking, the first thing that he will think is that he must be imagining it (i.e., that it is a fantasy).
Someone touched by a Jinn will exhibit signs of insanity. But signs of insanity do not necessarily mean having been touched by a Jinn, though one can use the expression majnoon to label it, such are languages with their use and abuse...
The God doesn't abuse the language or use it haphazardly. He uses it precisely to help us understand. Someone who is insane is detached from reality and his or her mind is in the fantasy world.
Believing in the existence of Jinns is completely different from worshipping Jinns (or believing in them if it means that). My understanding is that Allah is warning us from the devil ones of these creatures, also that we are priviledged into being given an insight into Allah's unseen creation such as the Jinns and the Angels.
We are told that most of those who go to hell believe in the "jinn" (3440-41). We are never asked to believe in "jinn". Why? Because "jinn" are not real. They are fantasies.
As for the "malaika" (controllers), they are not the mythical (i.e. fantasized) biblical Angels. Those biblical angels are in fact "jinn" since they are fantasies. On the other hand, controllers are any creature that The God gives control to.
My opinion, and take it as you may, but I mean no disrespect whatsoever is that you started off you article brilliantly using logical and archeological proofs about idol worship in some so-called muslim practices, then got side-tracked with the Jinns issue which cannot be proved or disproved as it is in the realm of the unseen such as angels, and the soul.
Actually, it is the logical evidence from the great reading and archeological proofs that led me to this conclusion about "jinn".
Ask yourself, are shape-shifting aliens linked to humans as we know "jinn" are?
Believe me we can argue ad-nauseum and ad-infinitum about this, and it will only be the one with the cleverest retort who will have the last word, without managing to change the belief of the other...
However Archelogical and scientific proofs are facts which cannot be denied, this is why I could follow you, but you lost me with equating jinns to imagination/fantasy.Archeological and scientific proofs tell us that the cubes are called "jinn" blocks. Ask yourself why they are called so? It is because they are abstract (i.e., imagined/fantasized) representation of the Arab idols.
As I said I read your arguments very thoroughly, and more thoroughly than any other arguments in this forum, but they did not convince me that Jinns were imagination/fantasies.
Salam again
Noble
And Allah knows best.
PS You convinced me on many other points in your posts though
PPS Is it not amazing that we have three interpretationsActually, the three interpretations are related and the only common thread that runs between them is "fantasy/imagination".
You never saw those shape-shifting aliens and you can only imagine them. So in fact, your "jinn" are certainly a "fantasy".
As for human leaders, we know that leaders tend to be very creative and those who mislead people have those grandiose "fantasies" of power and building religious empires or utopias. Just think about it. Would Hitler have done the crimes that he did, if it wasn't for him following his fantasy?
Even the smaller leaders such as the sectarian imams or saints get their influence on people from fantasies. For example, they tell people "if you commit suicide you will get 70 virgins" (which is a fantasy). Religious leaders deceive people into idolizing the prophet by fantasizing an imaginary prophet who will intercede for them and take them out of hell into heaven.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Bro Ayman,
I guess you were busy with the calendar so found time to respond only now.
Thank you for responding, and I value your comments.
Now just this for now
Fantasy or fantasies, because I happen to have fantasies )
I accept that we do have fantasies, but they are not jinns. For me jinns operate independently from us, whereas we can control our fantasies.
Unless you mean something else by the word fantasy.
I like to read fantasy stories, and in these there are fictitious accounts of very colourful beings )
Jinns are not alien supernatural or otherwise particularly examplary beings, we just cannot comprehend them, and the Quran details to me what and who they are. They use our fantasies to trick us into deviating from Allah's path, this is why as far as their effect on us is concerned, they are interchangeable with the word fantasy. That being said they have their own lives to lead too...
Fantasy is a concept not a being and has no reality per se, like thought, even if it originates, like thoughts from brain activity (electrical magnetic chemical impulses from firing neurons). I cannot see fantasy as I cannot see thought, but they are concepts not beings.
I cannot see Jinns either, but my interpretation of the Quran is that they are separate beings who can influence me, as they seem to be able to affect me subconsciouly.
So sorry brother you will never convince me, you are just wasting your time on me on this matter.
That being said, I do value the rest of your efforts, particularly in exposing the idolatry of many "islamic" practices, and lately the work you did on the islamic ramadhan dates calendar.
Take care bro.
Salam
Noble
Sorry again -
Peace all,
I wouldnt call Jinn a race. They are CREATURES different from us in body structure and function. Has it ever occured to any of you that Jinn might be "plasma beings"? "Plasma", where molecules are oon the threshhold of turning into energy, is in my opinion the most suitable interpretation of smokeless fire(not to mention tht my mother n i actually saw similar beings abt 19 yrs ago in Germany). Anyways i beliebe that a Jinn's body obeys all the laws of quantum mechanics and thus has a great variety of abilitities which humans dont including to become invisible, shape-shifting, etc. GOD Bless!