What is our religion, what is our mission on Earth...??
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Salaam Express,
First of all, welcome to the forum ;D
Next, what you have written might not be the case for the entire member of this forum. If I'm not mistaken, there are those who do not think the five pillars are wrong. But we can start from the hadiths.
When you talk about proof, what kind of proof? Is it quranic proof? Because if it is, then going by 3923, 456, and 7750 (among many others), the proof is already well established.
As for religion, I am no longer a "Muslim" but rather a "muslim" ;D
=adley=
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Salam every one,
I am a new member at this web site, I have been reading for a while at this site, some of the stuff is made me very confused abt my true religion Islam... some people or I should say allot of people reject Hadies, at first I use to think these people are just not Muslims, rejecting the five pillars of Islam? But now I have to clear up some stuff and want to here from everyone, learn the wright thing, who are we what is our religion, what is our mission on earth, what will lead us to heaven, or hell. What abt the five pillars, are they all not worth it, why should we reject Hadies, On what proof.... I ask u please to answer these questions, I know there are many people out here, and people who are not even registered will want to know some answers.- Thank You
Peace bro
According to the Quran, the hadith teachings and information can't be rejected, however only the hadiths that do not contradict the Quran
And from the hadith point of view, the prophet said to acceot only the hadith that have been qualified by the Quran
Therefore the Quran qualifies the hadith and not the other way around, i myself accept hundreds of hadiths
Salam
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peace
First of all, "islam" is not a religion. We aren't supposed to follow a certain religion, but try to follow God's system. We should live in harmony with the rest of creation, that is our goal.
If you've watched the Matrix, you know how Smith describes the humans-a virus.
We are a virus until we follow the "deen" and do good works.As for the hadith...just ask yourself-why doesn't the quran contain a complete message? why do certain words (like kaaba, mecca, hajj, salat) mean completely different things than how they are commonly used in the muslim world? why do hadith contradict the quran in many places? why not understand the quran using mainly it's context and verifiable knowledge instead of heresay (which is what the hadith is) and history?
I've come to believe that the book we call the Quran doesn't really have a name. The word "quran" is just a common noun meaning "reading/teaching". A teaching can be true or false. That's how the quran wants us to look at it. From a neutral point of view. So we can verify for ourselves whether this reading/teaching is true or false.Another thing I've come to believe is that the physical doesn't really matter, because it doesn't exist. There is no spoon. This world is just an illusion. What matters is the immaterial, that which we cannot see.
All religions today deal with physical things. The physical aspect is more important than the mental aspect of things.
In Islam, we are to physically pray 5 times a day, say the shahada, make a pilgrimage, have a beard, wear and not wear certain clothing, eat certain foods. In reality, all of this doesn't matter. What matters is the state of our eternal souls. No physical action will change our soul, but changing our soul will change our actions. So we should be concerned with what is in our hearts. -
peace
First of all, "islam" is not a religion. We aren't supposed to follow a certain religion, but try to follow God's system. We should live in harmony with the rest of creation, that is our goal.
If you've watched the Matrix, you know how Smith describes the humans-a virus.
We are a virus until we follow the "deen" and do good works.As for the hadith...just ask yourself-why doesn't the quran contain a complete message? why do certain words (like kaaba, mecca, hajj, salat) mean completely different things than how they are commonly used in the muslim world? why do hadith contradict the quran in many places? why not understand the quran using mainly it's context and verifiable knowledge instead of heresay (which is what the hadith is) and history?
I've come to believe that the book we call the Quran doesn't really have a name. The word "quran" is just a common noun meaning "reading/teaching". A teaching can be true or false. That's how the quran wants us to look at it. From a neutral point of view. So we can verify for ourselves whether this reading/teaching is true or false.Another thing I've come to believe is that the physical doesn't really matter, because it doesn't exist. There is no spoon. This world is just an illusion. What matters is the immaterial, that which we cannot see.
All religions today deal with physical things. The physical aspect is more important than the mental aspect of things.
In Islam, we are to physically pray 5 times a day, say the shahada, make a pilgrimage, have a beard, wear and not wear certain clothing, eat certain foods. In reality, all of this doesn't matter. What matters is the state of our eternal souls. No physical action will change our soul, but changing our soul will change our actions. So we should be concerned with what is in our hearts.Peace
and how about the existance of the prophets?, I guess you forgot to say that they never existed and they were just a bunch of metaphors, you know like the stories our grannies used to tell us before we sleep
Salam
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Salaam express,
Salam every one,
I am a new member at this web site, I have been reading for a while at this site, some of the stuff is made me very confused abt my true religion Islam... some people or I should say allot of people reject Hadies, at first I use to think these people are just not Muslims, rejecting the five pillars of Islam? But now I have to clear up some stuff and want to here from everyone, learn the wright thing, who are we what is our religion, what is our mission on earth, what will lead us to heaven, or hell. What abt the five pillars, are they all not worth it, why should we reject Hadies, On what proof.... I ask u please to answer these questions, I know there are many people out here, and people who are not even registered will want to know some answers.- Thank You
There are many questions in your post but I think the root is this question "Why should we reject Hadies, on what proof" since the rest will follow once we have an answer for that question.
Have you researched the hadith books? If not, then I humbly suggest you read those hadith books and decide by yourselves whether we should reject such narrations or not. As a starting point let me post a hadith about stoning.
Shahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195
Narrated Jabir
A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to the Prophet while he was in the mosque and said, "I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face to the other side. The man turned towards the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and gave four witnesses against himself. On that the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" (He added), "Are you married?" The man said, 'Yes." On that the Prophet ordered him to be stoned to the death in the Musalla (a praying place). When the stones hit him with their sharp edges and he fled, but he was caught at Al-Harra and then killed
Now let us see the prescribed punishment in quran.
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
Should we accept that "proven sunnah of the messenger"?
I am sorry if it does not give direct answers to your questions but IMHO the best way to reject hadiths is to read hadith books and read quran and I hope my post can serve as a starting point for your own further explorations.
PS Once you successfully reject a single shahih hadith, the next rejection would be easier since they have basically the same chain of narrators and were compiled using the same method by hadith compilers.
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peace Ahmed,
I would like it if this thread was dedicated to providing answers to Express's questions rather than debating about our own disagreements.
anyway, whether prophets existed or not is irrelevant. Unimportant. Debating their existence is a waste of time. What matters is that the things that happen in those stories happen to us all the time. Those stories are not just tales of the ancient, but contain a moral, a lesson that is directly relevant to our lives. I suppose the stories your grandma told you and the stories in the Quran have something in common. You learn something from them both.
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Salam every one,
I am a new member at this web site, I have been reading for a while at this site, some of the stuff is made me very confused abt my true religion Islam... some people or I should say allot of people reject Hadies, at first I use to think these people are just not Muslims, rejecting the five pillars of Islam? But now I have to clear up some stuff and want to here from everyone, learn the wright thing, who are we what is our religion, what is our mission on earth, what will lead us to heaven, or hell. What abt the five pillars, are they all not worth it, why should we reject Hadies, On what proof.... I ask u please to answer these questions, I know there are many people out here, and people who are not even registered will want to know some answers.- Thank You
Salam.
If you want to learn more about Islam, i suggest this link www.quran-islam.org
Welcome to the forum and just be patient, brother.
If you have any specific questions, just shoot, that's why we are here, to talk and discuss, unlike our brothers in the mid-East who prefer fighting.Salam.
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Salam,
I know everyone has a different view of point, but in the end it all means the same.
phoenix1 "We aren't supposed to follow a certain religion, but try to follow God's system. We should live in harmony with the rest of creation, that is our goal." what u said here was very nice, It resembled as a one universal law for all human beings, but this also contradicts the hadith, which means only follow the Quran, which is true, but God also told us to follow our prophet's teaching as well. so this means follow the hadith.
andy I loved the way u compared one hadith with the quran meaning, that cleared up stuff, and that?s the kind of proof I was asking for in the first place. But my main concerns are the Five pillars of Islam which I know only our Prophet broung to this world, and I know the five pillars are not discuss in the Quran either. So what can we look at or what tells us the pillars of Islam are wright, Is there proof here, I really really want to know abt this.
adley When I ask for proof, the only proof I want to know is from the Quran.
AhmedBahgat Ok, i know what ur saying is, but can u tell me abt the five pillars do the contradict the Quran.
I thank u all for letting ur opinion out, but this isn't clear yet i want to learn more, so I can teach my self, and others in my family and friends the wright thing, i want to live my life the wright way, but I need ur help and some answers.
-Thank You
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I thank u all for letting ur opinion out, but this isn't clear yet i want to learn more, so I can teach my self, and others in my family and friends the wright thing, i want to live my life the wright way, but I need ur help and some answers.
Have you checked out the main site http//www.free-minds.org/ ?
Peace
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peace express
I just want to let you know that there isn't one view that is followed by all on this forum. Everyone will give you different answers. It is up to you to listen to all views and verify for yourself.
About following the messenger...
A messenger is a person who brings to us the truth from God. It makes no sense that you would follow God and not the messenger. You can't say that the message is right but the messenger is wrong.
This is what I believe is meant by that, until I get a better understanding.But whatever that means, messenger cannot mean muhammad as we are not supposed to differentiate between messengers. The only way we cannot differentiate between them is to focus on their message, because the way they look, the way they do things will be different.
So we are to follow the messengers, but follow only their message.these are the 5 pillars-
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say the shahada
what you say doesn't matter. It is what is in your heart that counts. So just saying a few words will not change you, so they are useless. -
pray 5 times
I, along with others, believe that the quran talks about performing salat at dawn and dusk. There are different views, though. But salat doesn't mean prayer, and it has several different meanings in the quran.
Also, I don't believe that performing a few physical actions a day will help us in any way.
3.zakat
nothing wrong with charity, but there is no fixed amount in the quran. We are to give others what we have in excess. Zakat means purification.4.fasting
look at the "scorching full moon" thread.- Hajj
I think it means discussion/debate. I may be wrong.
Whatever it means, though, it has nothing to do with a pilgrimage to mecca.
In fact, the city of mecca is not mentioned in the quran.
And God's system cannot have 5 pillars because it is not a religion. Following God's system is doing good works. It's as simple as that.
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AhmedBahgat Ok, i know what ur saying is, but can u tell me abt the five pillars do the contradict the Quran.
Peace
After an intense researches that took me two years I concluded that the Shahada is the only thing in the the 5 pillars that contradicts the Quran, in fact the Quran can easily prove that the Shahada is a clear cut case of shirk
Salam
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The word "mecca" as well as "becca" are each mentioned once. However, mecca simply means "destruction."
yes. thank you for clearing that up, OpenMind.
peaceI have to say that was very impressive evidneces, thanks for increasing my knowledge
Cheers
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Peace and welcome, express,
Some profound questions you have here. Please excuse my brevity but each one of these questions can be a 37-page thread in itself...
who are we
Who is we? If you mean this forum, then it's a hodgepodge of personalities - the majority of whom are striving to be muslimeen as described in al-qur'an.
what is our religion
Islam is the deen.
what is our mission on earth
To purify and prepare your soul for the next phase.
what will lead us to heaven, or hell
Harmony or disharmony.
What abt the five pillars
There is no mention of 5 pillars in al-qur'an. If it's details you want, then there are hundreds of pillars. If it's the bottomline, only 3. Believe in God, contribute to this world via good-will, and know that your actions and thoughts will have consequences .
are they all not worth it, why should we reject Hadies, On what proof....
There are literally hundreds if not thousands of posts on this site about hadith. The search option would do you justice here. My understanding, in a nutshell, is that
a) al-qur'an proclaims itself perfect, complete, providing every answer and explaining itself (this should be enough evidence for an objective seeker)
b) "imam" Bukhari's system of isnaad is quite possibly the most inaccurate way of passing down information, particularly over 200 years, and in a time of zero record keeping
c) hadith collectors had no authority/protection and were succeptible to the politics amd pressures of the timeThe common argument is, "but al-qur'an states that we are to obey the messenger". Quite simply, the messenger is no longer with us, but the message he delivered is still here.
Can it be any clearer than 7185?
Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things GOD has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, do they believe in?
Peace,
Tay -
Salaam Tay,
Good post.
Salaam Express,
Yes, as long as my criterion is the quran, Tay's post and the ayats I gave earlier should suffice.
But if you are expecting the quran to have all the details of "religion" as most "Muslims" now know, well, you might get disappointed. Because you might find the quran totally alien to common "Islamic" practices.Good luck.
=adley=
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Salaamun alaikum Express,
ExpressI am a new member at this web site, I have been reading for a while at this site, some of the stuff is made me very confused abt my true religion Islam... some people or I should say allot of people reject Hadies, at first I use to think these people are just not Muslims, rejecting the five pillars of Islam? But now I have to clear up some stuff and want to here from everyone, learn the wright thing, who are we what is our religion, what is our mission on earth, what will lead us to heaven, or hell. What abt the five pillars, are they all not worth it, why should we reject Hadies, On what proof.... I ask u please to answer these questions, I know there are many people out here, and people who are not even registered will want to know some answers.
When you leave the world of hadith, it becomes not about hadith or even Al-Quraan (AQ). It becomes about you, your life and your destiny. You might even find some hadith helping you along the right path, but then again, you could also find that Kant, Neitzsche, Heidegger, Confucius and a thousand other ideologues doing the same.
who are we
I dunno about we, but I am a human seeking to become a human being.
what is our religion,
My deen is al-islaam which means that my relationship with my Lord is that of submission towards the attainment of salaam/peace/security/safety. It follows then that I (try to) make exclusive my service to be only for Him.
what is our mission on earth,
Following from my deen above, my mission would be to establish 'salaam' on earth, a state of absolute safety in the most complete sense. Of course, I am far from this mission.
what will lead us to heaven, or hell.
A life of imaan/conviction and amal-salih/corrective actions.
What abt the five pillars, are they all not worth it,
Zakat and fasting are worth it, I think.
why should we reject Hadies
Because hadith while it may have some truth, does not gurantee itself like AQ.
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AdleyAs for religion, I am no longer a "Muslim" but rather a "muslim"
Imho, while it's possible to be 'muslim' or 'not muslim', it's not possible to escape being 'Muslim'. 'Muslim' is a certain pan-ethnicity to which you and I both belong by virtue of our heritage.