GROUNDBREAKING QURANIC FINDING!!!
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Brother Anwar
There is no need to go back and forth, I think Samia responded well that Shahr Ramadan with a missing "Yakun" does not make sense because verb to be can't be dropped otherwise we have a totally different structure of the sentence, she provided a good example with "Al Jaw Jamil" which in Irab is Mubtadaa and Khabar and both Marfuh Bi Al Dummah, if Kana or Yakun is there, then the first two examples we will have new structure, Kana needs an Ism and a Khabar, therefore Al Jaw will be Ism Kana and will stay Marfuh Bi Al Dummah while Jamil can't be Marfuh Bi Al Dummah any more as in the case of "No verb to be", with with verb to be the Khabar must be Mansub Bi Alfatiha and as you can see in the 3 examples, the first 2 "Jamil" have an Alif at the end "Alif Al Madd" because it is Mansub Bi Al Fatiha", the last "Jamil" is Marfuh Bi Al Dammah
Salam
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Ahmed,
If you think I'm being stubborn or responding to Samia for the heck of it without true intentions, then thanks for the suggestion. But I'm not so you don't have to worry about that. It would be an injustice to not help Samia understand what I am saying, so I am going to respond to her to help her understand exactly where I am coming from, which it seems like she hasn't seen exactly. It honestly sounds like you are just trying to shut me up and I really don't appreciate that. But I will assume that you have the best intentions. Peace.
Dear Samia,
The conclusion and grammar of what I am saying is in the followoing sentence
Isti'daadan huwa jayyidun
or
Huwa isti'daadan jayyidun
or
huwa jayyidun isti'daadan.
The nasb is nasbul-haalati. Which is what I stated to you before. All nasbul-haalati are adverbs in English terms and in the above case it is modifying the verb to be in present tense, which in Arabic is ommitted, and not thought of as a verb in present tense (not future using ghadan with yakoon makes it a present tense verb that projects into the future). I don't want to get into an argument about how verbs aren't ommited in Arabic like Ahmed trying to insist. 99.999 percent of the verbs are not in ommitted in Arabic and the verb to be (when it is in present tense) is part of the .00001 percent.
(future and present tense actually over lap in Classical Arabic and in all languages to varying degrees)
When you say 'ghadan yakoonul-jawwu jameelan' that shows that you are talking about the future, and not the present. You probably don't think of the concept of 'to be' in the present tense which is why you are having trouble with this. It is the same as 'the weather IS pretty today' but in Arabic you would say 'the weather (is) pretty today' and the verb to be 'is' is ommitted from an English perspective, but from a purely Cl. Arabic perspective there never was a verb to be there, and the verb 'to be' only comes into play in the future, past, subjunctive or conditional tenses.
To take your words and help you to understand what I am saying I am going to add 'al-yawmu and (note that this is not al-yawma)
Al-Yawmu jameelun jawwan
or
al-yawmu jawwan jameelun
Notice that jaww is not an adjective but it is a strictly a noun. So differing from jameelan, which is an adjective in the nasb case, nouns in the nasb case set the stage for the condition of the sentence or statement. Even though the verb 'to be' in Arabic doesnt exist in the present tense, from an English persepctive, jawwan, just like the use of Isti'daadan before are both modifying the ommitted present tense verb 'to be'.
This, and especially the second is the case of 'sharun ramdaanan lalladhee . . .'
Godbless,
Anwar -
Ahmed,
If you think I'm being stubborn or responding to Samia for the heck of it without true intentions, then thanks for the suggestion. But I'm not so you don't have to worry about that. It would be an injustice to not help Samia understand what I am saying, so I am going to respond to her to help her understand exactly where I am coming from, which it seems like she hasn't seen exactly. It honestly sounds like you are just trying to shut me up and I really don't appreciate that. But I will assume that you have the best intentions. Peace.
Peace mate
well bro, what you said above never ever came to my mind, i was just providing extra info, that's all
i will read the rest later bro, got a lot to do
Salam
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I'm guessing that either you guys agree with me, are thinking about it or just don't want to deal with the issue. It could be any of the three but I would appreciate an honest answer like "I'm not ready to deal with that" or "I just can't agree" or "it make sense" . . .
Godbless,
Anwar -
Hey Anwar
I have been very busy bro, but will invistigate later, just a quick question bro, is there any 5 letters roots in Arabic and if there is can you give us a couple of examples?
cheers
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You know they are really rare. They only go up to 4 letters mostly and then if they have an alif in front of them they are only derivatives of the four letter roots examples
taw, meem, hamza, noon (tawm-ah-na)
alif, taw, meem, hamza, noon (it-ma-ah-nna)Iqsha&arra.
But franqa&a is a root that is 5 letters.
fa, ra, noon, qaf, &ain. It means 'to go a way, to get out'. (Ifranqa&a)
This is the only one that I can remember. My teacher told me this one.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Thanks bro
How about "Izdahar", "Ikhtasha"?
cheers
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Your welcome,
No these do not have 5 letters in their roots. Izdahara comes from zahara and is the form ifti&aal. The taa changes to a 'da' because of the zaa. Same with ikhtashaa, it is from khashaya an is the form ifti&aal as well.
So you do you have no opinion or any other questions on the ground-breaking topic?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Your welcome,
No these do not have 5 letters in their roots. Izdahara comes from zahara and is the form ifti&aal. The taa changes to a 'da' because of the zaa. Same with ikhtashaa, it is from khashaya an is the form ifti&aal as well.
So you do you have no opinion or any other questions on the ground-breaking topic?
Godbless,
AnwarPeace Anwar
Mate Izdahar has nothiinthing to do with flowering, it actually means "Blossomed", for example we can say the business Izdahar, i.e. the gusiness blossomed, WE CAN SAY THE BUSINESS AZHAR, it makes no sense
see why there 5 letters root, to diffrentiat between words that almost have the same letters
bro I have my arabic grammar book and I gor this example from it, I'm no manipulator bro
I will photo copy the lage and post it on monday Inshallah
for Ikhtasha, again the Ta is vital to make this 5 letters root with a titally different meaning to Ikhsha
another example is Igtamaa, the two is required to give the meaninfg that someone had a meeting with others, if you say Igmaa with that Ta then it means somthing else wich is to collect
see how the root differntiate the words meaning so confusing does not arise
for your thread I will try to have another look bro, sorry I nget bored quick and I have zillio0ns of things to do but you can aske me any further questiion on a PM I guess I still have one PM to reply to you, sorry
Salam
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Salaam all
I'm guessing that either you guys agree with me, are thinking about it or just don't want to deal with the issue. It could be any of the three but I would appreciate an honest answer like "I'm not ready to deal with that" or "I just can't agree" or "it make sense" . . .
Godbless,
AnwarMy apologies. my honest answer is that there are two issues in your post grammatical and sementical. I have no problem with the the latter (if you mean a hot shahr). It is the formal I am trying to deal with.
Isti'daadan huwa jayyidun
or
Huwa isti'daadan jayyidun
or
huwa jayyidun isti'daadan.
Al-Yawmu jameelun jawwanor
al-yawmu jawwan jameelun
In all these examples (they are actually two main ones) the adjective i (jayyid; jameel) is in the nominative (marfouu3), whereas we have in your control sentence (rammadana) in the accusative "manSuub). If you think that I still do not get it, can you please give me your translation (one literal and one meaaningful) for "shahrun ramadana"?
Salaam Ahmed
Mate Izdahar has nothiinthing to do with flowering, it actually means "Blossomed",
Do you really mean that or there is a typo?
for Ikhtasha,...........another example is Igtamaa
Do you notice a pattern in these three verbs (the third being izdahara)? I think you mix between pattern and root. Verbs (and words ingeneral) derived from the same root have different patterns and do not mean exactly the same meaning, but their meaning is related to the meaning of the root. E.g
jama3a to collect; ijtama3a to meet; tajamma3a to gather, jamme3 all; tajammu3 gathering; jam3iyya group-organization; mujtama3 society; jum3a gathering. Root for all the above words (and maybe more) ja ma 3a, giving the meaning of plural, or more than one.
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Salaam Ahmed
Mate Izdahar has nothiinthing to do with flowering, it actually means "Blossomed",
Do you really mean that or there is a typo?
Salam Samia
There was a typo for sure however yes I mean Izdahara means blosom, Azhar means to flower, we can say the economy izdaharit but we can't say the economy azharit
That is why we have 5 letters root "Masddar" that will be the origin of some words
i.e. the masddar for the noun "Izdihaar" is the past tense 5 letters root "Izdahara"
same with Igtamaa
for Ikhtasha,...........another example is Igtamaa
Do you notice a pattern in these three verbs (the third being izdahara)?
yeh sure, it is called wazn and all 5 letters root musddars are on the same wazn
I think you mix between pattern and root.
no i'm not, it can't be while I was taught arabic since I was a baby, any arabic word even root has pattern "wazn"
Verbs (and words ingeneral) derived from the same root have different patterns and do not mean exactly the same meaning, but their meaning is related to the meaning of the root. E.g
never heard of that really, but I know this is just an easy entry to the non arabic speakers who want to learn Arabic, the Arabic language is far deeper than this flawed root method that you guys make every word as a three letters root and from that you drive the meaning, total non sense if you ask me
jama3a to collect; ijtama3a to meet; tajamma3a to gather, jamme3 all; tajammu3 gathering; jam3iyya group-organization; mujtama3 society; jum3a gathering. Root for all the above words (and maybe more) ja ma 3a, giving the meaning of plural, or more than one.
So?, the above does not change the fact that the noun Igtimaa "Meeting" is driven from the the 5 root past tense masddar "Igtamaa"
Salam
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Ahmed,
Your argument about the difference between flower and blossom is pointless. Sometimes you can't translate things literally and litterally izdahara means 'it flowered' but it makes better sense to say 'it blossomed' in English.
You are confusing form and root. wazn is form and jadhr is root. izdahara is of the root zahara and is of the form ifta&ala. You may have learned Classical Arabic since a baby but you are mistaken about this Classical Arabic concept and it seems you have confused root and form. The forms are related by not the same. Samia, started explaining that to you and it is best if I let her explanations suffice here. She has also been speaking Arabic since she was a baby.
Samia,
Take the sentences that I gave you as examples to help it fit grammatically, and take in mind that modern langauge sometimes finds archaic langauge difficult, as well as phrases that have never been heard before by the listener or reader.
take the sentences
huwa jayyid isti&daadan
now go to
huwa fee &aamin isti&daadan fa nahnu sa-najma&u kulla &itaadinaa lidifaa&i
Think of it as poetic language. Even though the Quran says it is not poetry understand that poetry in the old sense has nothing to do with rhyme or rythm but whether or not it was for entertainment.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Bro Anwar
sorry bro, I have no time to watse on this subject anymore, as I stated I will photocopy the page about the Masddars from the grammar book I have and post it in here and you will see in there that there are 6 letters Masddars as well
Salam
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Cheers bro
let's discuss something else man, I will still post the imgages form the book, I just need to scan it first
I will also post who are the authors and their background
cheers
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Salaam all
Bro Anwar
you will see in there that there are 6 letters Masddars as well
Salam
Of course there are, and even 7 letters ones!
You were mixing between verb pattern and root, now you are mixing between maSdar (verbal noun) and root. These are 3 distinctive things.Progod
I asked you, not for more examples, but to please apply your examples to the verse, i.e. write the verse as you understand it (by substitution) and then expalin it, so that I unserstand fully what you mean and my response can be based on that, with my thanks.
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Salaam all
Bro Anwar
you will see in there that there are 6 letters Masddars as well
Salam
Of course there are, and even 7 letters ones!
You were mixing between verb pattern and root, now you are mixing between maSdar (verbal noun) and root. These are 3 distinctive things.Salam Samia
please Samia, your english definition have no meaning to me, I only taught the Masaddar, all the other tings you named in english never heard of it unless you provide the equivelent name in arabic
also there was never 7 letters massdar in that book
Salam
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Salam Samia
please Samia, your english definition have no meaning to me, I only taught the Masaddar, all the other tings you named in english never heard of it unless you provide the equivelent name in arabic
also there was never 7 letters massdar in that book
Salam
Salaam Ahmed
I think we already know root (jidhr) and pattern (wazn) as mentioned in one of Progod's posts. Now I put the English equivalent of maSdar (verbal noun) between brackets, not for you, but for those who are not native speakers and are learning Arabic in English. You may ignore the English translation of the technical terms.
The second part of your question What about istiqlaal (independence) and all maSdars of this wazn (pattern)? If your book says there are no 7 letters maSdars, I would not trust it if I were you.
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Salam Samia
please Samia, your english definition have no meaning to me, I only taught the Masaddar, all the other tings you named in english never heard of it unless you provide the equivelent name in arabic
also there was never 7 letters massdar in that book
Salam
Salaam Ahmed
Salam Samia
I think we already know root (jidhr) and pattern (wazn) as mentioned in one of Progod's posts.
Excuse me sister, the Gazr and Wazn has nothing to do with the origin of the word, the Gazr is never taught at schiils and have no meaning in Native Arabic speakers countries, we only taught the Wazn and the Masddar
now do you lnow what Masddar means in Arabic?
it mean "the origin" i.e. the origin of the owrd, for example
Igtimaa has a Masddar of of 5 letters that is Igtmaa
and the Masddar "The origin or the word" is the one that is used to figure the meaning and that is what we are taught at Arabic schools
for me this Gazr thingy is a flawed invention that only cause confusion and makes all the words the same bloody meaning if they have the same 2 letters Gaze for example someone like simple thinks the following
ghanam which is sort of the Lamb means Aghnaam which are the things collected in a war after victory
why he thought thatand totally manipuklated the Quran?, because he used the flawed and un merited Gazr "root" thingy and sure he has to get confused because the two words have the same three letters Gazr "Gh N M"
I have zillions of examples
so your insistance and many like you to use this Gazr method to figure the words meanings only show your ignorance with the arabic language
The second part of your question What about istiqlaal (independence) and all maSdars of this wazn (pattern)? If your book says there are no 7 letters maSdars, I would not trust it if I were you.
Istiqlaal has a 5 letters Masddar with a shadda on the Lam, virtually 6 letters Masddar and it is "Istqll"
Salam
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Sister samia
I checked the book and sorry to tell you that the Masddars are only 3 to 6 letters, wait till I scan that page and post it in here then you can respond to it and show us where the two senior Arabic language professors got it wrong
I'm sorry I don't have a scanner handy as typing it will defeat the authenticity purpose that I'm not faking it, as well I don't have time to type it really
one page will explain every thing to you regarding the Masddars and how they work
the professors put in a tree like shape and you follow it through the branches
now I know where the confusion is coming from
i thought those root advocates mean that it is the Masddar all alonge up to this moment
I was only talking about the Masddars thinking that this is what you mean by the roots, because the Masddar is the origin of the word in Arabic NOT the root
Salam