Do We Really Have to Abstain From Food and Drinks?
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Salaam all,
This is to discuss a specific issue mentioned here by bro Phil. I am trying to learn another point of view (POV) about the shawm (self-discipline) of ramaDan (SOD). The POV I'm now interested is that there is no such thing as not eating or not drinking during the 10 days of ramaDan.
I still do the SOD by not eating and not drinking from sunrise to night. However, this is how I view it if I try to read 2187 differently.
From what I can read, if this verse does not talk about eating and drinking in the literal sense, then "kullu wasrabu" means something completely different. I am thinking that this phrase means to immerse one's self in the quran, learning and seeking guidance from it ("eat and drink" from the quran). And the white thread vs. black thread perhaps to tell us that we should maintain the self-discipline (shawm) by reading the quran until it is clear which is the truth and which is the falsehood. And of course, during this intense activity, sexual relationship should not be performed (2187), because we are trying to implement the act of hearing and obeying/submitting/complying with The God's guidance and commands. (I do not view "masjid" here as physical place either).
Which was replied by
Shawm as in Q2.183 is also enjoined to earlier generation before Muhammad era. From ("eat and drink" from the quran). taken from your post above, i read Q575 where we can find kana ya/kulani alttaAAama which literaly translated to "they were (B) eating the food;" So I tend to agree with you on this one as the ayats are referring on how we can gain (eat?) the benefit from the message sent down through the messengers.
Then I continued with
This self-discipline activity would last for 10 days, as a preparation for the time of gathering which is the debate (al-hajj). Thus, the participants in the debate will know what they are talking about (443) and no baseless arguments will be put forth (2197). All of this, perhaps, so that the gift of guidance can reach its destination (2196). So that the people will come to realize the deen of The God (2227-29).
Bro Phil mentioned that
Shawm by not eating and drinking certainly contradicts 1926.
Which bro Tanveer answered with
Can you please explain how "shawm" by not eating and drinking contradicts 1926 ?
1926 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then Say "I have declared a fast for the Almighty, and I will not talk today to any of mankind.""
According to the context of this verse, the "shawm"/abstinence being talked about here is abstinence from talking. The "shawm"/abstinence mentioned in 2187 is a different kind of "shawm" according to the context. here it is "shawm"/abstinence from eating, drinking, and having sex. Thus there is no contradiction between "shawm" by not eating and drinking and 1926.
Well, I have to say this is interesting. I want to explore this new POV regarding SOD.
Anyone who want to share his/her thoughts regarding this issue, please do so.Oh, by the way, the real issue is about eating and drinking during SOD. So if anyone does not agree with 10 days for instance, please don't throw it here. And we're not talking about the "when" either. This thread is solely dedicated to the real relationship between SOD and "eating and drinking"
=adley=
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Salaam,
A response from bro Phil
Peace bro tanveer.
Thanks for sharing your thought.
Agreeing with you that "shawm" in Q1926 is not related to abstinence to eating and drinking but self-restrain from talking. But the way I see, the diphtong "fa" in the ayats indicates a continous/interconnected events that relates to the "shawm" and to "eat and drink" and to "will not talk".
Thus the idea of after eat and drink, then you fast/abstinence as per your translation to me is ignoring the role of "fa" in the ayats. On top of that, the translation of having to declare a fast for the Almighty to me is questionable. Are we suppose to believe that the Almighty needs us to fast for Him? Hope to get some clarifications.
What I see, in essence the ayat talks about
- eat and drink
- fast
- not talk
Being in abstinence/fast as per Q1926 means not talking, (need helps on this, literally talking or ?) but at the same time you eat and drink. (refers back to Q1925, hence physically eat and drink)
Now relate back the "shawm" in Q2187, we see another element being added as one performs the "shawm"
- intercourse at night of the fasting
- and eat and drink until the thread the white appears from the thread the black from the dawn
- then complete the fasting to the night
- and do not touch their outer skin (while) you are devoting in the mosques/places of worshipping God.
As for no 2, I'm in line with what bro adley had mentioned earlier and further evidence is from the reading Q575. (not physically eat the food? rather gain the guidance from the message?)
Therefor to associate no 3 with abstinence from eating, drinking (physical act) to me will contradict Q1926.
Appreciate to hear your comments to better understand the message.
Regards
To which bro Tanveer replied
Peace brother Phil,
The word "shawm" itself only means abstinence. What exactly are we to abstain from is determined by the context. The "shawm" in 1926 is a different kind of "shawm" according to the context, than the "shawm" in 2187. Thus IMO they do not contradict while meaning abstaining from different things.
Because of this, even if we take your interpretation of "shawm" as not abstaining from eating or drinking in 1926, it would still not contradict with 2187 meaning "shawm" from eating and drinking.
I will appreciate comments from other members of the forum who are well versed with the Arabic language about the role of "fa" and their take on this issue. As far as I am concerned, even with your interpretation of "fa" there is still no contradiction as I explained above.
Peace.
=adley=