Metaphor for the Nafs(subconscious)
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Please elaborate as I am not sure if you were agreeing with me or disagreeing. If it is disagreement, it is respected but I want to be clear where the difference is so that I can clarify my position or come to a better understanding.
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Easy kyle. I pretty much agree with your thoughts on salat. (except for the dawn and dusk timings.)
I would add,that the subconcious is like the 'automatic' animal like,'natural' instinct that tells the person how to react in different situations....As man has evolved some of these automatic responses are no longer needed,and so we have to re-program our subconcious,or at least over-rule it with our higher conscience...Examples are we dont have to respond agressively to every stranger we meet in defending our territory,or we dont need to look at every edible animal we meet,as our dinner...We also need to over-rule/not act upon inappropriate thoughts that may come to our minds which may be socially wrong if acted upon,or even harmful to ourselves...
Basically humans have a subconcious which tells/informs them of many potential ideas and thoughts,these thoughts and ideas may be conducive to achieving a good outcome/reality or they may be capable of creating a bad outcome/reality,the salat/re-programming/meditation/pondering/conscience tries to filter the raw thoughts and ideas into some kind of 'feasible' reality which can then be acted upon,and hopefully will create a positive and desired outcome...The re-programming may or may not (depending on the individual,and the degree/length of 'bad' conditioning one has.) reduce or stop the less than desirable thoughts from the subconscious,however with will-power,intention and constant re-programming (or mindfulness and insight.) one can see the thoughts for what they are,and then proceed to either not act upon them,or to act act upon the benefical thoughts only....
A final point is that in some cases,if one does not re-program to adjust for reality or to modify ones actions to be different from ones thoughts,then the subconcious may automatically take over and one may live as an animal on instinct alone,which is not very practical in todays society with all its much needed rules,rationalism,and civilities...
Some Animals may not be capable of living a truely broad conscientious life beyond survival and instinct,but man certainly can... -
Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Easy kyle. I pretty much agree with your thoughts on salat. (except for the dawn and dusk timings.)
What is your understanding of verses like 1778 and 11114?
I would add,that the subconcious is like the 'automatic' animal like,'natural' instinct that tells the person how to react in different situations
I agree with all except "natural". The subconscious comes with some pre programed resposes, but many of the programs in the subconscious of most humans are conditionings that are NOT "natural". For example, the urge to smoke a cigarette after eating a meal is programmed in the subconcious of many people, and that is not the natural response after eating a meal.
....As man has evolved some of these automatic responses are no longer needed,and so we have to re-program our subconcious,or at least over-rule it with our higher conscience
The "higher conscious" cannot over rule the subconcious. The Subconscious is the ENERGETIC part of being, the conscious contains NO ENERGY. We cannot defeat energy with no energy. The Key is to IGNORE the thoughts that come to us from the subconscious. If you have ever given up an addiction, be it alcohol or pork, you will confirm for yourself that when you stopped, the thoughts still came, but you had to IGNORE them until after time, they came less and less.
...Examples are we dont have to respond agressively to every stranger we meet in defending our territory,or we dont need to look at every edible animal we meet,as our dinner...
Agreed.
We also need to over-rule/not act upon inappropriate thoughts that may come to our minds which may be socially wrong if acted upon,or even harmful to ourselves...
Yes, through IGNORING the thoughts, not over riding them.
Basically humans have a subconcious which tells/informs them of many potential ideas and thoughts,these thoughts and ideas may be conducive to achieving a good outcome/reality or they may be capable of creating a bad outcome/reality,the salat/re-programming/meditation/pondering/conscience tries to filter the raw thoughts and ideas into some kind of 'feasible' reality which can then be acted upon,and hopefully will create a positive and desired outcome...
I disagree, it is not the salaat that filters anything out, it is consciousness, THAT which sees and decides, that is suppossed to filter out right from wrong. Salaat is just the process by which our conscious thoughts and actions are rendered automatic(subconscious).
The re-programming may or may not (depending on the individual,and the degree/length of 'bad' conditioning one has.) reduce or stop the less than desirable thoughts from the subconscious
I disagree, there is nothing that cannot be changed, but some things take more time then others. Thats why we have the verse that says "seek help through PATIENCE and salaat(programming)" because it takes time/repitition.
however with will-power,intention and constant re-programming (or mindfulness and insight.) one can see the thoughts for what they are,and then proceed to either not act upon them,or to act act upon the benefical thoughts only....
Regarding the term "will -power", there is no such thing. The "WILL" is free of energy, therefore there is no POWER associated with it. All the WILL does is CHOOSE. In order to CHOOSE, one must be FREE or coercion, free from the push and pull of ENERGY. Everyone knows that an emotional person does not think/choose correctly. There is a lot of confusion amongst mankind between CHOOSING and being led by DESIRE/EMOTION.
A final point is that in some cases,if one does not re-program to adjust for reality or to modify ones actions to be different from ones thoughts,then the subconcious may automatically take over and one may live as an animal on instinct alone,which is not very practical in todays society with all its much needed rules,rationalism,and civilities...
Some Animals may not be capable of living a truely broad conscientious life beyond survival and instinct,but man certainly can...I agree that one who does not take ownership of thier sunconscious is like an animal.
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Easy kyle. Verses 11114 and 1778 can be understood as '24-7',either by means of expression/idiom,or they can be viewed as metapohors for 'all of the time'...
By natural i mean something that comes easily (by either conditioning and/or by genes.) and not just as a sole consequence of genes.
I agree with the fact that you have to ignore inappropriate thoughts,but how does the will/conscience have no energy? I believe there is no such thing as no energy...
The rest of the points i have no problem with....
ps; salat can also be regarded as the process by which the conscious thoughts are rendered subconscious or automatic,in other words 're-programming' or programming ones-self to 'react' in positive/beneficial ways to external stimulus...,this can be agreed as well...
Take care.... ) -
Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Easy kyle.
I was initially confused by your new style of greeting. But esentailly thats what Peace is, absolute calmness.
Verses 11114 and 1778 can be understood as '24-7',either by means of expression/idiom,or they can be viewed as metapohors for 'all of the time'...
I am willing to be convinced, because I see the metaphor as the condition for meditation, which is the MEDI(middle) State between awake(day) and sleep(night), but the only problem I have with this idea of it meaing 24/7 is that there is a verse that talks about private times that says children must knock to gain access before dawn salaat and after dusk salaat. This points out specific times at dawn and dusk. It does not imply a 24 hour concept according to that verse. Also, we have the verse of Zachariah where he was alone in a private chamber maintaing salat when the malaikah came to him with understanding. This does not imply to me a 24 hour process. Further, there is the example of one leading others in "salaat" which shows a process with a start and stop. Lastly, if it was 24/7, how do we do it while sleep at night?
By natural i mean something that comes easily (by either conditioning and/or or by genes.) and not just as a consequence of genes.
By "Natural" I mean anything that is not "conditioned".
I agree with the fact that you have to ignore inappropriate thoughts,but how does the will/conscience have no energy? I believe there is no such thing as no energy...
You are correct, there is always energy/matter, so let me clarify. This "PEACE" that we talk about so much, that we greet each other with, that we accept as a description about our nature(muslim), that we are told is the greeting of the "garden" (Peace,peace),......is the return to our essential state of being.
We are PEACE that nothing can disturb. But we have forgotten that over years of conditioning to respond with emotion(energy in motion). This "PEACE" is a state where energy is NOT in motion, and therefore there are no objects formed for us to percieve. So when I say that consciousness/will has no energy, I mean that the energy is STILL, motionless. This is what the Hindus call "Nirvana" (nir=Not, vana= moving).
Enquirer, as you know being one who studies Quantum Physics, the deeper you get into energy/matter, the more stable and simple it becomes. We are trying to reclaim the PEACE/Stability that we come from and are destined to return to. That is the greatest urge within mans being. Thats why it is the highest goal of this way of life, properly described as "islam" (peacefulness). It is only by being at peace that we can respond properly to the challenges of life. If we respond emotionally, that means we started off already moving (energy in motion)in a certain direction, and everyone knows that you must calm down before acting so you can think properly.
So again, to clarify, it is not absence of energy, but just energy not moving, and therefore no objects to percieve (ghayb/unseen because there are no objects).
The rest of the points i have no problem with....
ps; salat can also be regarded as the process by which the concious thoughts are rendered subconcious or automatic,in other words 're-programming' or programming ones-self to 'react' in positive/beneficial ways to external stimulus...,this can be agreed as well...
Take care....Conscious rendered Automatic, that is absolutely the position I am promoting!
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Conscious rendered Automatic, that is absolutely the position I am promoting!
Peace,
At first I didn't fully understood what you meant with 'programming' and 'changing' our Self/Nafs, but I have to say that I understand it now and fully agree with it too. Salaat is indeed a form of reprogramming our Self/Nafs, a form of meditation. It really makes sense. I at first didn't understand what meditation was about and was stuck in the sunni view of salat (which I couldn't understand nor agree with), but after seeing a documentary on the National Geographic channel I finally understand what the purpose of salat is. It's a form of meditation.
An interesting documentary about meditation.
http//pbs-saf.virage.com/cgi-bin/visearch?user=pbs-saf&template=play220ram.html&query=%2A&squery=%2BClipID%3A5+%2BVideoAsset%3Apbssaf1310&inputField=%20&entire=No&ccstart=2069479&ccend=3318395&videoID=pbssaf1310
peace
Latifah
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Peace be upon you Latifah,
Excellent documentary. There are several like them that can be found on a web search. The facts are clear about meditation. Its just a matter of people accepting that salaat is talking about meditation. The timing is dawn and dusk, which is symbolic of the MIDDLE(Medi) state between waking and sleep. However, due to the deep controlled breathing of meditation, it keeps us in a "wakeful" state as we enter the "sleep" state. Normally, our WILL goes to the background when we approach sleep,thats why we dont question our dreams until we wake up. But with the deep breathing, we remain in a more "wakeful" state, keeping the WILL active so we can actively program our spirit(nafs). There is so much more to Meditation that can be explained, far beyond that documentary. For example, that Heat that is generated is the DIVINE ENERGY(Ruh Ul Qudus), or Life Force/QI/Kundalini, etc. This Divine Energy is personified as "jinn" because it is hidden from sight. And we are told "jinn" are made from smokeless fire. Thats the heat that is PROVEN by science as you just saw.
Here's the web address again because I had difficulty getting to it from your link
http//www.pbs.org/saf/1310/video/watchonline.htm
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Peace Idolfree1,
Excellent documentary. There are several like them that can be found on a web search.
Yes, I?ve been searching the net for more documentaries and information about meditation. I found quite interesting information.
The facts are clear about meditation. Its just a matter of people accepting that salaat is talking about meditation. The timing is dawn and dusk, which is symbolic of the MIDDLE(Medi) state between waking and sleep.
It?s nicely found but I?m not sure if that?s correct. I will keep it in mind and will search for answers on that subject. Your view is quite an interesting one though. I also like to see a lot of things in the Quran symbolic, but I?m not sure about the timing of the salat though.
peace
Latifah
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Easy kyle. With regard to meditation/salat at certain fixed times,i feel that the term 24-7 i was using in a general sense,meaning constantly...Just like the zen buddhists have certain fixed times for meditation (like first thing in the morning.) but the goal is to spend each waking moment in a state of receptivity,observation,peacefulness,insight and mindfulness...Obviously sometimes we will be on 'auto-pilot' with regard to our conciousness/salat/insight/meditation and we will just be observing reality...Zen buddhists consider just observing reality in day to day life as being meditation or salat...
To be sure we have to be mindful of our emotions and thoughts 24 hours a day (when sleeping is a slightly different matter!!) ,and this is why i say salat is the continual process of meditation...However,i have no problem with people wanting to do 1,2,3,4,5 or whatever number or timing of 'individual salats' if they wish to develop their own custom made personalised pragmatic programme of salat...
With regard to the verses asking for permission before and after salat-al-fajr and salat al-eesha,i regard this as possibly meaning children/people seeking permission before going to peoples rooms at certain times due to privacy reasons (undressing,sexual reasons,private conversations etc..),and the fajr signifying the 'first' communal social interaction of the day, and the eesha meaning the final communal social interaction of the day. The other parts of quoted verses do signify getting dressed also as a time needed for permission as well,so this may complement what i have stated with respect to privacy. I hope im clear in what im trying to say!!!
The rest of your post i mostly agree with... -
Peace be upon you Latifah,
It?s nicely found but I?m not sure if that?s correct. I will keep it in mind and will search for answers on that subject. Your view is quite an interesting one though. I also like to see a lot of things in the Quran symbolic, but I?m not sure about the timing of the salat though.
Respected We will continue to discuss this topic. I will try to provide further evidence to this remarkable concept which has come through many if not all cultures through history.
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Easy kyle. With regard to meditation/salat at certain fixed times,i feel that the term 24-7 i was using in a general sense,meaning constantly...Just like the zen buddhists have certain fixed times for meditation (like first thing in the morning.) but the goal is to spend each waking moment in a state of receptivity,observation,peacefulness,insight and mindfulness...
Yes, I agree with what you are saying. I study meditation from the Khemetic understanding as explained by Ra Un Nefer Amen in his books "Metu Neter" and "Tree of Life Meditation System". As you correctly stated, the goal is to receptive, yet WIDE AWAKE as we go through life. Compared to most people who are receptive and "sleep" as they go through life. This process is called Men Ab. But as you also said, there are set times when it is best for one to go to a quiet place to do an set meditation, dawn and dusk, especially during full moons and winter and summer solstices. It is these set meditations that I believe "salaat" is describing. Because without these set meditations, we cant achieve the Men Ab, or waking meditation.
Obviously sometimes we will be on 'auto-pilot' with regard to our conciousness/salat/insight/meditation and we will just be observing reality...Zen buddhists consider just observing reality in day to day life as being meditation or salat...
Yes, that is the wakefulness that we are trying to achieve and was the subject of the Pert Em Hru "book of coming forth by day", one of the oldest spiritual texts on the earth.
To be sure we have to be mindful of our emotions and thoughts 24 hours a day (when sleeping is a slightly different matter!!) ,and this is why i say salat is the continual process of meditation...However,i have no problem with people wanting to do 1,2,3,4,5 or whatever number or timing of 'individual salats' if they wish to develop their own custom made personalised pragmatic programme of salat...
Keeping in mind what I suggested above, that one must do the set meditation in order to achieve the waking meditation, I have no problem with someone wanting to meditate 100 times a day, HOWEVER, this is where the statement "a TIMED BOOK" comes into play. The consciousness is like the male, it can deliver the seed at any time, but the subconcious is like the female, it is time restriced, cyclical, it cannot always accept the seed.
Also, we must make the distinction between different reasons for meditation. The Meditation that I am talking about, that is explained in the literature I gave, is about PROGRAMMING BEHAVIOR, not just simply becoming aware.
So what is being said is that , yes, people can meditate any time they want, but there are times based on the cycles of life, that are BEST for meditation. Times when the subconscious is MOST RECEPTIVE TO CHANGE. Thats what we are dealing with here in regards to "Timing". Just like someone can eat food at any time of the day, even at 12 midnight, bu there are certain times when it is best to eat food based on the cycle of our digestive system, etc.
With regard to the verses asking for permission before and after salat-al-fajr and salat al-eesha,i regard this as possibly meaning children/people seeking permission before going to peoples rooms at certain times due to privacy reasons (undressing,sexual reasons,private conversations etc..),and the fajr signifying the 'first' communal social interaction of the day, and the eesha meaning the final communal social interaction of the day. The other parts of quoted verses do signify getting dressed also as a time needed for permission as well,so this may complement what i have stated with respect to privacy. I hope im clear in what im trying to say!!!
The rest of your post i mostly agree with...Yes, you are very clear with what you are trying to express. My only question is "salaat" used as an indicator at dawn and dusk, but not at dawn, if this all deals with the same topic of social interaction?
Last thing I want to ad about timing and dawn and dusk. Meditation is the state between awake and sleep. When we just wake up (dawn) and when we are about to go to sleep (dusk) are perfectly natural times for this process.
Please reflect upon what I have said regarding timing and give me your thoughts.