48:29 a false verse?
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Peace "andy"
As for me, 4829 is the revelation of Allah for sure, so if any pattern or someone's logic does not lie within it, then the pattern or the thought is wrong and not the other way around.
JK- Now look i agreed that it is BUT this thought of yours shows that your not believing on a rational basis. Your putting the cart infront of the horse. Once weve analysed the Quran and found a pattern and see a line of consitency and we see that one particular verse or word or even letter stands in the way of a bunch of complex interlocks, then it's definitely not part of the Quran. This is how the scientific method works. You may assume it has to be correct because you probably think that "this is what the majority believes the quran is", thereby narrowing down what the Quran is, or "how is it possible that a false verse be in so close proximity to the Quran". Indeed this latter argument has also been put forward before but it is nonsensible simply because anyone can take up a pen and add a few verses here and there. Hence we only have this great mathematical pattern which guards the Quran against addition and ensures it's preservation, at least today. GOD Bless!
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Salaam Jonny,
Peace "andy"
JK- Now look i agreed that it is BUT this thought of yours shows that your not believing on a rational basis.
It is much more irrational to declare "some" verses in quran are false verses just because it does not fit "something" ("something" can be one's thought, pattern, etc). Especially if there are hadiths which "support" the rejection of quran.
Your putting the cart infront of the horse. Once weve analysed the Quran and found a pattern and see a line of consitency and we see that one particular verse or word or even letter stands in the way of a bunch of complex interlocks, then it's definitely not part of the Quran.
The fact that the pattern must reject quran in order to work shows that it is not really pattern. I use quran as criterion to judge right and wrong, and not the other way around.
This is how the scientific method works. You may assume it has to be correct because you probably think that "this is what the majority believes the quran is", thereby narrowing down what the Quran is, or "how is it possible that a false verse be in so close proximity to the Quran". Indeed this latter argument has also been put forward before but it is nonsensible simply because anyone can take up a pen and add a few verses here and there.
You can call that "something" scientific works, rational thinking, or whatever you like. If that "something" contradicts quran, then that "something" is wrong and not the other way around.
Hence we only have this great mathematical pattern which guards the Quran against addition and ensures it's preservation, at least today. GOD Bless!
Brother Jonny, insha Allah in the future we will have pattern which does not contradict quran.
2106 When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
Just be patient and keep working.
20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be hasty with the Quran before its inspiration is completed to you, and Say "My Lord, increase my knowledge."
PS This is an example of pattern which works without contradiction with quran
http//www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/2151/Sample_of_Symmetric_Book-10875.zip -
Peace "andy",
It is much more irrational to declare "some" verses in quran are false verses just because it does not fit "something" ("something" can be one's thought, pattern, etc). Especially if there are hadiths which "support" the rejection of quran.
JK- Forget about the hadith. That is irrelevant to me.
The fact that the pattern must reject quran in order to work shows that it is not really pattern. I use quran as criterion to judge right and wrong, and not the other way around.
JK- Where does the pattern reject the Quran? It seems you do not even understand the difference between the Quran and Mushaf. In case you dont plz visit
http//19.org/forum/index.php/m/4320/222/#msg_4320
You cannot use the Quran as your criterian UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT THE QURAN IS. Think about that one.You can call that "something" scientific works, rational thinking, or whatever you like. If that "something" contradicts quran, then that "something" is wrong and not the other way around.
JK- And just how does it contradict the Quran? It doesnt contradict the Quran at all. Btw did you know that even before RK noticed that 9128&129 were false verses he counted the word "Allah" to be 2698 and not 2699, although it should have been the latter. This is the same mistake which Abdul Baqi comitted. He also fell short of one and that is not because he deliberately left out 11 since he did put that no in his index but in the end firgot to include it in his count. Sont you see how GOD is controlling the numbers? He delieberately left the count as 2698 otherwise RK probably wouldnt even get attracted to the pattern in the Quran. Only later was it realized that 9129 made the count increase by one and other factors involving around this. Every new independent discovery ive seen so far always at some point or another again indicates that sura 9 has got only 127 verses. That should tell you something. GOD has given us the scientific method so we can recognize His true Word.
Brother Jonny, insha Allah in the future we will have pattern which does not contradict quran.
2106 When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
Just be patient and keep working.
20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be hasty with the Quran before its inspiration is completed to you, and Say "My Lord, increase my knowledge."
PS This is an example of pattern which works without contradiction with quran
http//www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/2151/Sample_of_Symmetric_Book-10875.zipJK- Now your forcing things here. You wont find any other consistent pattern. Many have tried but failed. The system has already been discovered deeply with this and the boundaries of the Quran have now been defined with more than 99.999% accuracy, showing that we are on the right way. Now one more thing for you to remember. Remember that GOD says in the Quran that He will protect it, right? This means that this is a law the Law of GOD, correct? Now any logical person knows that a law cannot possibly be proven to exist unless somebody tries to break it, get it? For example if i say to someone in a room that he cannot exit it and that person stayed in the room forever, then nobody would ever know whether what i said is corect or not. It's only when the person tries to escape and then is forced back in that my statement would be proven right. Same is the case with GOD's statement of preservation. If nobody even attempted to temper with the Quran, ow in GOD's name are we supposed to know it's protected. Thus the exposition of 9128&129 as being non Quranic has actually proven what GOD stated. GOD Bless!
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Salaam Jonny,
Peace "andy",
JK- Forget about the hadith. That is irrelevant to me.
As far as I know, verses 9128-129 are chosen to be rejected because there is a hadith which supports the rejection. As for me, I repeat again and again, I use quran as the criterion to judge right or wrong and not the other way around. In this case, I reject the hadith and believe in quran.
JK- Where does the pattern reject the Quran? It seems you do not even understand the difference between the Quran and Mushaf. In case you dont plz visit
http//19.org/forum/index.php/m/4320/222/#msg_4320
You cannot use the Quran as your criterian UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT THE QURAN IS. Think about that one.Because the pattern rejects verses of quran. It is that simple, isn't it?
JK- And just how does it contradict the Quran? It doesnt contradict the Quran at all. Btw did you know that even before RK noticed that 9128&129 were false verses he counted the word "Allah" to be 2698 and not 2699, although it should have been the latter. This is the same mistake which Abdul Baqi comitted. He also fell short of one and that is not because he deliberately left out 11 since he did put that no in his index but in the end firgot to include it in his count. Sont you see how GOD is controlling the numbers? He delieberately left the count as 2698 otherwise RK probably wouldnt even get attracted to the pattern in the Quran. Only later was it realized that 9129 made the count increase by one and other factors involving around this. Every new independent discovery ive seen so far always at some point or another again indicates that sura 9 has got only 127 verses. That should tell you something. GOD has given us the scientific method so we can recognize His true Word.
It does contradict quran because it reject quranic verses.
JK- Now your forcing things here. You wont find any other consistent pattern. Many have tried but failed. The system has already been discovered deeply with this and the boundaries of the Quran have now been defined with more than 99.999% accuracy, showing that we are on the right way.
I am not forcing anything. For me it is very simple As long as any pattern does not contradict quran, I can accept. On the other hand, no matter how impressive the pattern might be, if it contradicts quran then there must be something wrong. Take it from me bro, if Allah really designed quran with code 19 pattern, insha Allah sooner or later we will come to see it (no need to reject any verse).
7516 Do not move your tongue with it to make haste.
7517 It is for Us to gather it and relate it.
7518 So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation.
7519 Then it is for Us to clarify it.Be patient be patient ...don't haste OK?
Now one more thing for you to remember. Remember that GOD says in the Quran that He will protect it, right? This means that this is a law the Law of GOD, correct? Now any logical person knows that a law cannot possibly be proven to exist unless somebody tries to break it, get it? For example if i say to someone in a room that he cannot exit it and that person stayed in the room forever, then nobody would ever know whether what i said is corect or not. It's only when the person tries to escape and then is forced back in that my statement would be proven right. Same is the case with GOD's statement of preservation. If nobody even attempted to temper with the Quran, ow in GOD's name are we supposed to know it's protected. Thus the exposition of 9128&129 as being non Quranic has actually proven what GOD stated. GOD Bless!
That is an excellent argument ... Let's see ...
Shahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is
'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty..(till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.
The hadith above can be viewed as an attempt of the enemies of the prophet to tamper the quran. Yet, the attempt has failed since Allah promised He will protect His Book. Had their attempt to corrupt quran been successful, we would have not seen verses 9128-129. Have you ever thought that way?
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Good post Andy
The Quran also confirmed that there was an attempt to tamper with the Quran and Allah prevented this from happening
Salam
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Salaam jonny,
Now one more thing for you to remember. Remember that GOD says in the Quran that He will protect it, right? This means that this is a law the Law of GOD, correct? Now any logical person knows that a law cannot possibly be proven to exist unless somebody tries to break it, get it? For example if i say to someone in a room that he cannot exit it and that person stayed in the room forever, then nobody would ever know whether what i said is corect or not. It's only when the person tries to escape and then is forced back in that my statement would be proven right. Same is the case with GOD's statement of preservation. If nobody even attempted to temper with the Quran, ow in GOD's name are we supposed to know it's protected. Thus the exposition of 9128&129 as being non Quranic has actually proven what GOD stated. GOD Bless!
I have given an example of attempt from the enemies of the prophet to tamper with quran. The attempt was to remove verses from quran (see http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3007.msg98867#msg98867).
I would like to give yet another example. This one is the attempt to add verses to quran.
Shahih Malik Muwatta Book 41, Number 41.1.8
Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab from Ubaydullah ibn Abdullah ibn Utba ibn Masud that Abdullah ibn Abbas said, "I heard Umar ibn al-Khattab say, 'Stoning is in the Book of Allah for those who commit adultery, men or women when they are muhsan and when there is clear proof of pregnancy or a confession.' "
The hadith above can be seen as an attempt from the enemies of the prophet to tamper with quran. Again we can see that the attempt has failed since Allah promised that He will protect His Book. Had the attempt been successful, we would have seen verses of stoning in quran. Have you ever thought that way?
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The Quran also confirmed that there was an attempt to tamper with the Quran and Allah prevented this from happening
Salam
Could you bring up the verses? That would be interesting.
Thanks.
Wassalam,
Those who deny Allah and His Messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His Messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" and (those who) wish to take a course midway.
They are in truth (equally) Unbelievers; and We have prepared for Unbelievers a humiliating Punishment.
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Peace lovelymoslems,
The Quran also confirmed that there was an attempt to tamper with the Quran and Allah prevented this from happening
Could you bring up the verses? That would be interesting.
Thanks.
Wassalam,
Those who deny Allah and His Messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His Messengers, saying "We believe in some but reject others" and (those who) wish to take a course midway.
They are in truth (equally) Unbelievers; and We have prepared for Unbelievers a humiliating Punishment.
I cannot see the relation between "the attempt of the enemies of the prophet to tamper with the quran" and the verses you brought up. Could you expatiate?
Thanks.
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I cannot see the relation between "the attempt of the enemies of the prophet to tamper with the quran" and the verses you brought up. Could you expatiate?
Thanks.
Some moslem think that they shall follow Muhammad character who love every men regardless of their believe, in other hand they reject that Allah has enemy, or Allah has ordered to make war.
The truth that Muhammad can not be separated to the whole story of Al Quran where he took part entirely.