Alcohol .. Last and Final debate
-
Peace Ahmed
Well since I stopped heavy drinking, then a few years later drinking, my health has become much better. The benefits of alcohol as Allah warned us are dwarfed by the dangers.
What annoyed my is that Arnold used shirk and other kaba'ir examples to justify his views.
For me that Allah tells me avoid is enough, but also because my faith is now stronger, because for a few years I was drinking while practicing my faith.
Allah is merciful and cases like mine were catered for with the ayat that said do not approach salat while intoxicated...
It is very relevant that Allah bothered to say so, it is because He knows (and now medicine knows) that stopping an addiction is not easy and takes time...
So for those who have never touched alcohol as a drink before, it is advised that they carry on keeping away from it.
On a side note, when you are a freshman at university, there is also a pressure to have a girl friend, so will one do that just because of the peer pressure?, same with drugs, etc...
Take care Bro
NoblePeace bro, I actually believe that the benefit of alcohol mentioned in the Quran is anything but to drink it,
Take care bro
-
I have a general question. If, as an example, alcohol was used for medicinal purposes, and there wasn't much of a choice, would you not use it at all due to it being "avoided"?
Peace zenje,
You clearly have missed the whole idea. Intoxicants for medical use are clearly allowed in my view
- They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit.? And they ask you how much are they to give, Say ?The excess.? It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
Any medical person would say the same thing, that intoxicants are a benefit for medical treatment, but will also clearly say it harms the body severly. That is why they will always try to avoid as much as possible. And i don't refer to the simple aneastisia that can numb a small part of the body through injection, i'm talking about narcoses and heavy intoxicants that numb people or put them under narcoses. Narcoses can kill people, and is thus avoided as much as possible.
You have to understand the purpose behind the negative advice. I don't believe in the 'punishing' God, i believe it has a clear effect on the progress of the Nafs/Self/Soul and thus on society as a whole. The Quran is only to show the best way to progress of your soul and society. So to neglect the advice has a direct effect on your soul, not that God will 'punish' you later on for doing it. It is about harming your progress and so must be approached as such. Pigmeat is only harmfull after long consumption period, not occasionaly consumption. So a sometimes, only when there is no other way, it is of course no harm in it. It is about the psychological approach, that how important is your progress of your soul to you?
No Noble, you still don't get it, and it almost shows you don't want to get it. Why? Because you don't understand the purpose of advice in the Quran. You think shirk is not allowed because God is jealous? NO. It is because it will deter you from progressing your nafs. I never compared intoxicants with shirk, i showed the same words were used, i never said the subjects were the same. I only showed that 'avoid it' has enough power to it as the word 'haram'. And that 'avoid it' was used as a serious negative advice. This is a fact. You have totaly misunderstood it.
A forbiddance or negative advice is there to show the things that will cause stagnation of your nafs, shirk will create illusions and thus you cannot make full use of Reality. As for the 'criticism', i responded to your post as it was nonsense and personal and not criticism, i would love some REAL criticism using Quranic verses and reason on the subject of intoxicants, and not personal comments.
Peace
-
Arnold, you again keep on pushing through your philosophical understanding of Al Quran which is very dubious at best...
Stop using bubble gum philosophy to explain the intentions of Allah, it is well beyond me and you...
I think by misleading people that there is no physical hell, this is far more dangerous than them drinking or not drinking alcohol...
Sober up dude, some people might be intoxicated with liquor, you are intoxicated with the "self righteous" syndrome!
Peace out -
Arnold, you again keep on pushing through your philosophical understanding of Al Quran which is very dubious at best...
Stop using bubble gum philosophy to explain the intentions of Allah, it is well beyond me and you...
I think by misleading people that there is no physical hell, this is far more dangerous than them drinking or not drinking alcohol...
Sober up dude, some people might be intoxicated with liquor, you are intoxicated with the "self righteous" syndrome!
Peace outPeace,
Instead of simple rejection, you can also show me where i'm wrong on that the Quran is to show us what will cause harm to our soul and what not? Because this stands apart from my approach to heaven and hell, which again you cannot see. You focus on the wrong things in the conversation. I think you should listen to your own advice a bit more....
-
Peace
OK Arnold, I will make an exception.
I hope you believe in common sense, and the way human psychology works.
If you tell people that Hell is not physical and that they will not stay there forever being barbecued, it is natural, unless you come from Mars, to not take the threat seriously and therefore do what they want.
It is fear of the consequences that stop people from doing wrong.
Not everybody has this ethereal pristine at the core good soul you keep on rambling about refer Al Quran "...inna khalaqna al insana fi ahsani taqweem thumma radadnahu asfala safilleen..."
Open up your eyes while you are above the ground bro... -
Peace
OK Arnold, I will make an exception.
I hope you believe in common sense, and the way human psychology works.
If you tell people that Hell is not physical and that they will not stay there forever being barbecued, it is natural, unless you come from Mars, to not take the threat seriously and therefore do what they want.
It is fear of the consequences that stop people from doing wrong.
Not everybody has this ethereal pristine at the core good soul you keep on rambling about refer Al Quran "...inna khalaqna al insana fi ahsani taqweem thumma radadnahu asfala safillen..."Peace,
This is off-topic Noble. We can discuss in the appriotate thread. But here is a small answer, that jahannam is not physical doesn't mean it is a joy. The Quran is simple on this, or you choose to develop your soul, or you will end up in stagnation which will be a Hell. Most people believe they can get away with things as God will 'forgive' them on the day of judgement as long they believe in Him alone and pray on time. Hell doesn't stop people either from doing wrong deeds as they always believe in certain escapegoats. It doesn't work like that. Yaumwedeen is the Constant working Law of Judgement and Order, and so every deed will have direct and indirect concequences on your soul. You cannot escape it. It has a direct effect on your soul. So i 100% agree with you that the consequences is what stops people doing from wrong, only the effect of the wrong i see different then you. You think that my version will cause no feeling of regret on the person, and you're so wrong on this. The stagnation of the soul will be felt as a burning sensation in this life, and especially will be experienced as a pain in the Next life when confronted with the Truth of this Reality.
I don't believe in that everybody has a good soul. I believe everybody can create it, big difference. I believe there is a lot of mistaken ideas about my approach. But we can discuss this in another thread if there is an urge too.
As to go back on the topic, do you see the difference between me showing the use of 'avoiding' and comparing shirk with taking intoxicants? As i only showed that 'avoiding' is an as serious negative term as 'haram' can be. I did not say shirk is the same as taking intoxicants.
You have confused the two, and i know you take medicines for a serious reason, but you sometimes are a good example of why not taking them..
(i hope you can take a joke as i mean no disrespect to your situation)
Peace
-
Peace Arnold
Let us yet again agree to disagree...
Do not worry about jokes, I love jokes, so far that is as they do not lead me to physical hell, I cannot even stand being burnt by a match stick
Take care, I really wish you would not get barbecued brickwall
Noble out -
Peace AY and all,
I think our understandings, in regard to alcohol, are not very different. handshake No one here, atleast in their right minds, is advocating the drinking or abuse of alcohol, and no one is saying that its forbidden to the point that you can't use it at all even for medicinal purposes. It is the grey area in between that we have a little difference here and there. As long as that's clear for us and others to see.
A good friend of mine who gave up drinking (2 years sober now) in his 40s, tells me the only thing he regrets is not having done it earlier. This is after his girlfriend and his drinking friends all deserted him. He thank's God how much better his life has become. So in regard to drinking as a social medium, it only goes to show who your real friends are.
peace
-
Peace zenje
The same goes for smoking by the way, in fact smoking is even more dangerous, as you destroy your health and that of those around you (such as your children, and those unfortunate enough to be around you while you are smoking - passive smoking has been found out to damage health as much if not more than direct smoking), close to home, my niece was smoking while pregnant and her child was born with some defects...
I was also a heavy smoker, such a sinner I was (3 20 cigs packs a day!). And boy how good I feel now that I have given it up too!
Allah in Al Quran advocates that there should be among us some who specialise in fiqh of deen, and there will always be some things which are not clearly accounted for, but by using our brain, logic, reason and good science, we can reach conclusions as to what is acceptable and what is not.
I do not condone Alcohol, but I cannot say to someone who asks that it is Haram, because it is not...
Salam -
Peace,
This is my piece of the pie then.
This is a sensetive argument, but mostly it is based on the demand for the so-called only magic word that can forbid things, haram. When researching the Quran and it's overall use of words, it can be clearly seen that there are more words used to make something restricted. There is a verse that says don't be intoxicated during salaat, but this immedialty give a green light to get intoxicated? Not in my view. It keeps in account some people will use intoxications, nothing more. A lot of people say intoxicants are allowed in small amounts based on some verses, but they forget some verses refer to medication and not to intoxicants taken for pleasure.-
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit.? And they ask you how much are they to give, Say ?The excess.? It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
-
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the one that is distanced from God(shaytain=shaat=long rope). You shall AVOID it so that you may be successful.
The magic words are You shall AVOID it
Let's look for them
431 If you avoid the major sins that you are forbidden against, then We will cancel your existing sins and admit you to a generous entrance.
9115 And it is not for God to misguide a people after He guided them, until He makes clear to them what they should avoid. God is aware of all things.
2230 Thus, and whosoever honours God's restrictions, then it is better for him with His Lord. And the livestock is made lawful for you except what is recited upon you. So avoid the foulness of idols and avoid saying false statements.
3917 And for those who avoid serving evil, and turn to God in repentance, for them are glad tidings. So give the good news to My servants.
So let's say avoiding only is an advice, and a little consumption of intoxicants are allowed, is then looking at the use of avoiding in this verse, does this mean a little serving evil? A little idol-worship? A little bit of false statements?
5332 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the Earth, and while you were embryos in your mothers' wombs. Therefore, do not acclaim yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.
So a little major sins is allowed?
2222 They ask you about menstruation say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."
Is also a little sex allowed during menstruation? And the 'you shall avoid it' is clearly explained in the sentence after it, 'do not approach them until..', so 'avoid' is equal to 'do not do it all'.
668 If you see those who mock our revelations, you shall avoid them until they delve into another subject. If the devil causes you to forget, then, as soon as you remember, do not sit with such evil people.
So we can sit a little bit with them or must we completly distance ourselves from then till they change the subject?
1636 We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.
2230 Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.
So a little idolatry is allowed?
233 And they avoid vain talk.
And a little vain talk is allowed?
4912 O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Here we must avoid, and the sentence behind it is intruiging, as even a little bit is harmful.
My point is that to say the word haram is not the only one used to restrict/forbid things, is not correct when the Quran is investigated. Also in the Hereafter we get drinks that don't intoxicate, if a little bit was allowed, why then make them non-intoxicate?
5618 With cups and jugs and a cup/wine flowing easily and plentifully.
19 They do not get headache from it, and nor they be drunk/exhausted/intoxicated .As for the sentence that says we make intoxicants from the fruits
1667 And from the palm trees' and the grapes' fruits you take from it intoxication , and a good/beautiful provision , that in that (is) an evidence/sign (E) to a nation reasoning/understanding .
Does this immediatly imply intoxicants are allowed for pleasure? Also in older times, alcohol was used in medical uses and chemical uses. As 2219 clearly implies, there is more harm then use in them, which is acknowledged in the medical world, where narcotics are used for narcoses and anaesthetics, and is harmfull for the body even in small amounts.
I myself used to drink and smoke weed, and i too made use of 'haram is not used' but after research on the Quran, i came to the clear conclusion this is only an escapegoat. When God gives us an advice, who are we to neglect it? There are only few who know their limits, and even then we are still neglecting God's advice. I myself also thought always i'm strong and mature enough to handle it, but this is not what is in dispute here, it is about the words used.
To say only the 'haram' can forbid it is not true. Please bare this in mind. I understand that there are enough people who can handle themselves, just sometimes in little amounts, but that is not what on dispute, i know people are mature persons who can handle herself. But God used the same words with idolworship and major harmfull deeds, and it is clear then that the use of words must be taken serious. I hope people will consider this, before they type something like God didn't forbid it, as God clearly gives a more negative then positive tone when talking about intoxicants. For some people the negative tone is enough, others just ignore it as a adolecent would."When man doesn't change his life to fit his faith, he will change his faith to fit his life."
Peace
peace, all
excellent post arnold thank you very much for the read.
peace, ex
-
-
-
Peace zenje
The same goes for smoking by the way, in fact smoking is even more dangerous, as you destroy your health and that of those around you (such as your children, and those unfortunate enough to be around you while you are smoking - passive smoking has been found out to damage health as much if not more than direct smoking), close to home, my niece was smoking while pregnant and her child was born with some defects...
I was also a heavy smoker, such a sinner I was (3 20 cigs packs a day!). And boy how good I feel now that I have given it up too!
Allah in Al Quran advocates that there should be among us some who specialise in fiqh of deen, and there will always be some things which are not clearly accounted for, but by using our brain, logic, reason and good science, we can reach conclusions as to what is acceptable and what is not.
I do not condone Alcohol, but I cannot say to someone who asks that it is Haram, because it is not...
SalamOk its bad for our health but are you saying that we can drink it, if we want?
-
Peace Bro ammarb87
Allah tells you to avoid it. Who am I to tell you the opposite?
Drinking it is up to you.
Do not wait for me to tell you what to do and not to do.
I believe that each individual has the right to exercise their freedom of choice.
Why are you waiting for someone in the forum to tell you what to do?... either you are serious about your faith and do whatever it takes to understand it, or you are just looking for excuses to exonerate yourselves from making an informed choice.
Nobody is a mufti here. There are plenty of fatwas about not drinking alcohol, and some about the opposite.
It is a sad fact that muslims now always want others to tell them what to do, without trying to get an informed choice for themselves. This is why we have the abomination of terrorism and suicide bombings. Or the opposite with individuals who accept any humiliation thrown at them and call it Islam...
Maybe you should ask your father or mother what they thinkTake care
Noble
-
Peace ammarb87
You make me laugh...
You really want to drink don't you?
I tell you something, there is no way one can guarantee how your body is gong to react to it, ie it can kill you, and it does happen...
Also there is no guarantee you will not get addicted to it, because it is very addictive, and if you do get addicted to it, you are in big trouble...
To top it up, you do not know how you will handle yourself if/when you get drunk, some make the most stupid things when drunk, even life threatening things...
It is up to you really, no one is your keeper...
For health benefits, you could have red grape juice, it is as good, and without the dangers, or drink green tea...
Anyways
Take care Bro
rotfl