Breaking a Taboo
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Breaking a taboo on leaving Islam
http//uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aG8su4USr1U
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Cosmicdancer
I am just leaving this forum today - but on my way I out I caught your post and it's video and I was able to also view the one where you were detailing and exposing the verse about beating women.
Firstly I would like to say well done for being so brave and exposing the issue and doing so in such a clear manner. I have also heard your whole story...... in English this time . However what I see is a problem in taking that literally applying to everyone.
I think it is for the similar reasons as yourself why I left Islam originally and embraced the new age movement instead which advocated for freedom and blind love instead of fighting for justice. I was open to the suggestion that God was just a Quantum field.
It was rather the facing of eventaully feeling spiritually/existentially lost and seeing for teh first time how I had becoem subject to evil forces both in society and spiritual dimensions - that made me believe and really come to understand the dire need for the rope of God and to be on the straight path. If it were not for experiencing for myself the way evil forces working to reduce mankind - I would not be here. I do firmly beleive that there is a spiritual war going on - and that is why there is a need for revelation. Otherwise freewheeling just makes you vulnerable to being seduced and used by the dark forces.
Anyhow aside from that - I make a number of points below as to my own understanding why I can accept the verse about wife beating
As I have indicated in my first post to you - the Quran says that only accept what you understand of the Quran- so perhaps that means not blindly having to accept matters that don't apply to us. I see myself growing in wisdom and I begin to grow in appreciting more and more differnt verses in the Quran - just by reflecting on them. I personally don't thnk that a person can mistranslate - because understanding the Quran will ALWAYS remain a subjective one according to one's own level of conscience.
Historic literature indicates that the prophet did not used to hit his wives. Yet also in the Quran it references where the prophet is asked to just be the messenger not apply his own logic. It is enforced on him not to change any of it.
The Quran is amongst many purposes also a historic reference book that was relevent to the cultured people and the time.
It says in the Quran that the arabs are the worst in morality,
- I don't mean to be racist but I happened to meet with an Arab girl last year on a course and I woudl say I was astounded by her level of mainipulative, controlling and deceitful behaviour. She did not compare with any unbeleiver I had ever met. She appeared to have not morals wahtsoever. Maybe the verse was being directed to women like her.....not that I would prefer to beat her up - I would rather just not associate with her - but if I was a man having to live with her because all of teh women in my community were like that maybe I might see that verse as a blessing for threatening the women to sort themselves out. It might be the way of justice.
Whilst we are to judege between wrong and right - ultimately - only God can be the owner of the day of Judgement.
I am also wondering if you have left only the identifcation of waht constitutes Islam or you also no longer beleive in God ?
In any case I wish you peace and mercy for you to live true to your conscience.
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The verse does not say beat, it says strike. In the Koran the term strike has many meanings and is used in many ways. Second Sunnis translate that verse by saying first do this, then this and then beat them lightly. The Koran does not say first this, then this, and then finally that. It says all three must be done together if you FEAR misconduct from them. Now elsewhere the Koran tells the people at Madina that if someone ACCUSES his or her spouse of misconduct to bear witnesses. Even if they bear witness, the other spouse can defeat those witness with his or her own witness.
So it is no correct to suppose that by fear alone, the Koran will allow the beating of a wife when it did not allow that for even an accusation with 4 witnesses.
The verse is wrongly translated.
Men are the maintainers of women because God has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely God is High, Great.
The verse after it say
4.35. If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, God will cause their reconciliation For God hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.
The Koran does not say beat them. It says "Idribuhunna". Which means strike them. Its from the word "daraba". Which means strike. Its translated as beat them since it goes along with sectarian hadiths that justifies beating a woman lightly if she disobeys. Beat or hit is only one possible meaning of the word Dharaba. The hadiths also says the prophet pinched or poked one of his wife. Since Aisha is always reported relating hadiths like bombs falling from a B-52 it had to be her of course. These are sources Muslim sects use to translate the Koran. These hadiths emerged 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet which the sectarian clerics believe were "orally" passed down across 6 or 7 generations. It was compiled by men like Imam Bukhari or Imam Muslim or Tabri etc. between 220 to 350 after the prophet's death.
Anyways when the Koran uses Dharaba , it always explains strike what or how. Let see the Koran
"Seest thou not how God sets (Dharaba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". Quran 1424
26.63. Then We told Moses by inspiration "Strike(Idhrib) the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.
"O you who believe, if you attack (Darabtum) in the cause of God then make a clear declaration, and do not say to those who greet you with peace 'You are not a believer!' You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God favoured you, so make a clear declaration. God is expert over what you do." (Quran 494)
"So how will it be when the Angels put them to death, striking (Yadriboona) their faces and their backs" (Quran 4727)
"So We sealed (Darabna) upon their ears in the cave for a number of years." (Quran 1811)
"Shall We take-away (Na'drib) the reminder from you, because you are a transgressing people?" (Quran 435)
"Have you not seen how God cites (Daraba) the example of a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and its branches in the sky." (Quran 1424)
"As for the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, and they cannot leave (Darban) the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features, they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it." (Quran 2273)
14.25. It brings forth its fruit at all times, by the leave of its Lord. So God sets forth(Yadribu) parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition
43.58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee(Dharabuhu) , only by way of disputation yea, they are a contentious people
4.101. When ye travel(Dharabtum) through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
38.44. "And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith(Fa'adrib) and break not (thy oath)." Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent in Our service! ever did he turn (to Us)!
So all these verses uses the word Dharaba differently. In fact if you look at all the verses in the Koran that uses the word Dharab, we would find it used for variou meanings
To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727
To set up 4358; 5713
To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
To take away, to ignore 435
To condemn 261
To seal, to draw over 1811
To cover 2431
To explain 1317
Since Dharaba has different meaning in the Arabic language depending on its context.
The verse only says "strike them". Yet this is insufficient to explain it as beat them, since strike(Dharaba) can mean many thing as we saw already.
The meaning strike them as to hit them or beat them physically over mere suspicion or fear is inconsistent with the Koran. Strike them can mean strike them out of the house or stike them out of your life or whatever.
O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it . And fear God. Verily, God is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. 49.12
O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done. 49.6
So we translate it as it is, and not how the hadiths say it should be, which is
38.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them , refuse to share their beds and strike them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means For God is Most High.
If we look at the Koran, it mentions the situation when one ACCUSES a woman of ill conduct and even a spouse accuses another of ill conduct. Lets see what it say
24.4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-
24.5. Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.
24.6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by God that they are solemnly telling the truth;
24.7. And the fifth that they solemnly invoke the curse of God on themselves if they tell a lie.
24.8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times By God, that he is telling a lie;
24.9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of God on herself if he is telling the truth.
24.10. If it were not for God's grace and mercy on you, and that God is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,-
How can then the Koran say to lay hands on someone over a mere fear or suspicion when it does not even allow it over an accusation backed by the witness of 3 people and even the witness of a spouse if the other spouse also swears by oath that its not true? So the sectarian hadith inspired translation contradicts the Koran.
As usual!
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Breaking a taboo on leaving Islam
http//uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aG8su4USr1U
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Wow! So you were legit. Sorry that some here suspected your intention. I am glad that you are free now. But I still do believe you need to hang in there like the rest of us. Faith ain't easy as many here will tell you. After all we are here on Earth as a product of Adam's disobedience and the Koran makes it clear we are here as a punishment. You also seem to still understand Islam through sectarian lenses. Maybe thats the problem.
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Wow! So you were legit. Sorry that some here suspected your intention. I am glad that you are free now. But I still do believe you need to hang in there like the rest of us. Faith ain't easy as many here will tell you. After all we are here on Earth as a product of Adam's disobedience and the Koran makes it clear we are here as a punishment. You also seem to still understand Islam through sectarian lenses. Maybe thats the problem.
I personally don't see this as being true because we are born sinless...to carry "Adams" mistake over to us humans is very unjust and unfair. My reading so far indicates from the Quran that we are born because of mercy from God and as a test. Unless you can explain why you think this from the Quran and logic.
PEACE
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I personally don't see this as being true because we are born sinless...to carry "Adams" mistake over to us humans is very unjust and unfair. My reading so far indicates from the Quran that we are born because of mercy from God and as a test. Unless you can explain why you think this from the Quran and logic.
PEACE
7.19. "And O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in Paradise, and eat thereof as you both wish, but approach not this tree otherwise you both will be of the Z?lim?n (unjust and wrong?doers)."
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Then Shait?n (Satan) whispered suggestions to them both in order to uncover that which was hidden from them of their private parts (before); he said "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save you should become angels or become of the immortals."
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And he swore by All?h to them both (saying) "Verily, I am one of the sincere well?wishers for you both."
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So he misled them with deception. Then when they tasted of the tree, that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifest to them and they began to stick together the leaves of Paradise over themselves (in order to cover their shame). And their Lord called out to them (saying) "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you Verily, Shait?n (Satan) is an open enemy unto you?"
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They said "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers."
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(All?h) said "Get down, one of you an enemy to the other On earth will be a dwelling? place for you and an enjoyment, - for a time."
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He said "Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out ."
Maybe its because we would have all did the same thing as Adam and maybe even worse.
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Your assuming in your post paradise is somewhere upstairs and when God mentions earth and "get down" it means a literal physical displacement from paradise far away in the heavens.
From my reading/studying paradise is attainable obviously within limits on earth too (I've used translation from http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0)
3133 Move forward eagerly to the tranquil security that comes from your Lord, and to the Paradise that transcends spatial boundaries, encompassing the Heavens and the Earth. It has already been prepared for those who live upright.
1697 Whoever, whether male or female, does works that help others and is a believer, We shall certainly cause them to live a good life, and We shall grant them the rewards considering the best of their actions.
4131 We are close to you in the life of the world and in the Hereafter. In it (in your paradise on the earth and in the Hereafter) you shall have all that you may desire and in it you shall have all that you ever prayed for.
Think about it
- If they were already in "Paradise" how did they commit a mistake/sin?
- What was shaitaan/ibless doing there in the first place causing mischief?
- Why should we be punished by being here on earth because of Adam and his partners mistake?
PEACE
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i don't know.... here again is my problem with the idea of holy books. we rely on them, we quote them, we adore them, we limit ourselves to their words and commandments, we work hard to justify and explain the words, to apologize for and elaborate, and in the process we are unkind to one another. is that what God wants?
i need a break for now. brother dancer, peace. thank you for voicing your doubts. may God bless you, brother.
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i don't know.... here again is my problem with the idea of holy books. we rely on them, we quote them, we adore them, we limit ourselves to their words and commandments, we work hard to justify and explain the words, to apologize for and elaborate, and in the process we are unkind to one another. is that what God wants?
i need a break for now. brother dancer, peace. thank you for voicing your doubts. may God bless you, brother.
Very good question.
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Your assuming in your post paradise is somewhere upstairs and when God mentions earth and "get down" it means a literal physical displacement from paradise far away in the heavens.
From my reading/studying paradise is attainable obviously within limits on earth too (I've used translation from http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0)
3133 Move forward eagerly to the tranquil security that comes from your Lord, and to the Paradise that transcends spatial boundaries, encompassing the Heavens and the Earth. It has already been prepared for those who live upright.
1697 Whoever, whether male or female, does works that help others and is a believer, We shall certainly cause them to live a good life, and We shall grant them the rewards considering the best of their actions.
4131 We are close to you in the life of the world and in the Hereafter. In it (in your paradise on the earth and in the Hereafter) you shall have all that you may desire and in it you shall have all that you ever prayed for.
Think about it
- If they were already in "Paradise" how did they commit a mistake/sin?
- What was shaitaan/ibless doing there in the first place causing mischief?
- Why should we be punished by being here on earth because of Adam and his partners mistake?
PEACE
The verse says Earth as if it is a different place. It says on Earth will be a dwelling place.
As far as Garden, there is perhaps many different Gardens and dwelling places. It doesn't mean that the Paradise the Koran talks about people will be allowed to enter in the after life is the same as the Garden Adam was in. But it does look like Earth is the place they were sent after their sin.