Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
-
peace
I don't think heaven and hell are physical places because the idea of going to a physical hell or heaven originated from Zoroasterainism (I murdered the spelling of that word) and made it's way into christianity and Islam. Unless I'm wrong.
Yes you are wrong
wait for my movie and you will know that you are wrong
-
Peace
So Bro Arnold, in your opinion since we are operating at a different level, as you say, which level is better your level or my level? am I inferior to you or you are inferior to me, just puzzled about your comments on this Level business/
hehe
Noble out -
Peace AB,
About this "mathal" issue, you yourself admitted that it can be used for "like" "for example" or even as a metaphor. In other words, you can use mathal to talk about a similitude, to talk about something by way of comparison.
I can say "I am mithl a bird." Does this mean I am a bird or an example of a bird? No, it means I am like a bird metaphorically because, for example, I'm so happy that I feel like I'm flying in the air.
I believe you are narrowing the scope of mathal to fit your own biases. I'm not saying mathal doesnt mean example. Of course it does. But it ALSO means other things.
You brought up Allah talking about Heaven and using mathal to do so. You said Allah is giving us examples (real examples) of what heaven will be like (for example, it will have rivers, and foods, etc.). I agree, that can be one interpretation. It can be an example. The language does allow for it.
BUT, the language ALSO allows for it to be a metaphor. You said in your post that when Mathal is used to compare something, at least one of the things has to exist. I agree, of course. So why doesnt that apply here?
God gives a mathal of rivers and trees in heaven. Those things do exist here on this earth, so they exist. But those things dont have to literally exist in heaven; just like you said, only one of the things has to be existing. In this case, they exist on earth.
In fact, when one looks at Lane's Lexicon, one sees the various meanings that are attributed to M-TH-L. Here are some "a description, condition, state, case.....likeness, resemblance, analogue....it is metaphorically applied to a condition, state, or case......to be descriptive, by way of comparison"
As you can see, and as you have already admitted, the word mathal can be used to denote a similitude or a metaphor. It is used to describe things by way of comparison.
Allah knows that we have certain things that we enjoy here on earth (cool shade provided by trees, nourishment of food, etc.), so Allah uses those examples, and by way of comparison, gives a likeness of what it will be like in heaven (by referring to those same things). Allah knows that our human mind cannot comprehend the afterlife so He uses terms that we can understand concretely. As you said, in a mithl comparison, 2 things are compared, and at least one has to actually exist. In this case, the trees, foods, etc. do exist here on this earth. They do not have to literally exist in heaven; they can just be metaphors or similitudes.
Peace.
-
Peace
1899 And We left some/part of them that time (to) trouble/agitate (interlock) in some/part, and the horn/bugle/instrument was blown in, so We gathered/collected them all together .
These verses are talking about Gog and Magog(harmfull nations), as can be seen by the verses preceding these 2. In verse 99, it clearly talks about the nations being in great conflict which each other, and 'the trumpet will be blown' refers to a momentus period, a time of change and importants, and 'We collected them all together' refers to where the people will have one common goal and they will all strive to reach that goal.
Quote a verse to confirm your personal view.
This is pure logic. When people gather, they have a common goal. When people go to the mosque, it is because they have the common goal to pray, if people go to the supermarket they have the common goal to buy food, if people gather in school, they have the common goal to learn. People gather for a common goal.
This can be seen with wars as WW2, which was truly a Jahannam on display, and now with Iraq, where the sunnis and the shias are in conflict over each other, while in the same time having the same goal. Because of this, they are creating Jahannam.
War is jahannam on display?
It is an example yes, Jahannam was used for multiple examples, war, misery, destruction, on individual or society scale. For example, Hades was the word for the Greek-underworld, in the english language it is used for awful situations or places.
44- It hath several gates, and each gate hath an appointed portion.
The seven in verse 44, can also mean several as for example in 229. It refers to the multiple ways in how humans can create Jahannam in their mind and in their surroundings. It has several gates or ways to enter misery, just like there are several ways to start a war, the conflincts can also be called gates towards war. So the gates refer to certain deeds, acts and thinking which are gates towards misery. Greed, racism, lust, dictatorism, lies, rejection of truth are all gateways towards misery and will create Jahannam in your mind and in the land.
a) Seven gates could mean several.
Is pure classic arabic linguistics. Denying this is denying truth.
b) Gates is way of misery
c) Gates refer to deeds
d) Conflicts can also mean gatesNo, you misquoted, there are certain ways to create something, a gate is an opening, a threshold, a point from where something starts. A gate to your house, refers to a treshold, a spot from where your house begins. This is the same with gates to Jahannam. Thinking and acting in a certain way which deviades from the Quran is called straying off the path. So when people keep behaving and thinking in a certain way, they will eventualy pass a certain point which from which they are creating Jahannam. That certain point is refered to as a gate towards Jahannam.
Misery = Hell ?
Misery is just one word i chose to express the concept, i could have also chosen shame, destruction, stagnation, torture, deterroration, agony, grief, calamity and so on. But yes, Jahannam is called shame/torture/misery/grief/anguish.
Misery in this life
985 Do not be impressed by their money or their children; GOD causes these to be sources of misery/destruction for them in this world, and their souls depart as rejectors.Misery in the next and in this life, resurrection also refers to when humankind will be in high progress and the Quran will rule, and the ones following idols will see that it only attained them misery compared with the muslims
1627 Then, on the Time of Resurrection, He will disgrace them and ask, "Where are My partners that you had set up beside Me, and had opposed Me for their sake?" Those blessed with knowledge will say, "Today, the shame and misery have befallen the disbelievers."As long as they will remain rebellious they cannot escape the results which they caused with their deeds
2222 Whenever they try to exit such misery/grief/anguish, they will be forced back in "Taste the agony of burning."By not following God's guidance people will only attain misery, see verse 479
478 Those who disbelieve incur misery/destruction; He causes their works to be utterly in vain.9210 We will indeed make smooth for him the path to misery/destruction;
There are 10s of question here, but useless to argue with someone who changes the language, changes the words and changes the meanings just to fit a personal view.
Give me one arabic meaning which i showed which is not true. And when you post something, use evidence.
Peace
-
Peace
This is pure logic. When people gather, they have a common goal. When people go to the mosque, it is because they have the common goal to pray, if people go to the supermarket they have the common goal to buy food, if people gather in school, they have the common goal to learn. People gather for a common goal
Pure or unpure but your logic doesnt fit the verses or common sense.
44- It hath several gates, and each gate hath an appointed portion.
The seven in verse 44, can also mean several as for example in 229. It refers to the multiple ways in how humans can create Jahannam in their mind and in their surroundings. It has several gates or ways to enter misery, just like there are several ways to start a war, the conflincts can also be called gates towards war. So the gates refer to certain deeds, acts and thinking which are gates towards misery. Greed, racism, lust, dictatorism, lies, rejection of truth are all gateways towards misery and will create Jahannam in your mind and in the land.
a) Seven gates could mean several.
Is pure classic arabic linguistics. Denying this is denying truth.
b) Gates is way of misery
c) Gates refer to deeds
d) Conflicts can also mean gatesNo, you misquoted, there are certain ways to create something, a gate is an opening, a threshold, a point from where something starts. A gate to your house, refers to a treshold, a spot from where your house begins. This is the same with gates to Jahannam. Thinking and acting in a certain way which deviades from the Quran is called straying off the path. So when people keep behaving and thinking in a certain way, they will eventualy pass a certain point which from which they are creating Jahannam. That certain point is refered to as a gate towards Jahannam.
Excuse me, I didnt misquoted you. You are denying '7 gates' and adding false meaning to fit your logic.
Give me one arabic meaning which i showed which is not true. And when you post something, use evidence.
You have to show evidence for oldly new logic of yours, not me.
Peace.
-
Peace,
The word for seven is also several in classic arabic. And what i meant with misquoting is that you need the whole story to understand those little parts. For the rest is a matter of insight and view. And this is not a 'new' view. Some of the ideas i got from ancient commentators of the Quran as Raghib. That they are unknown to you, is a different matter.
If you look at the verses of gathering, they are talking about Gog and Magog, which is a metaphor for evil nations. -
peace
How can hell be eternal if 3185 says this?
Every living being shall have to taste death. On the Resurrection Day you shall be paid in full what you have earned. Whoever is drawn away from the Fire, and gets admitted to Paradise, will have gained supreme triumph. Those who consider the life of the world as the end in itself should know that it is only a comfort of self-deception. The real success depends on striving for this world and for the Hereafter.Every soul must taste of death; and ye shall only be paid what ye have earned on the Day of Resurrection. But he who is forced away from the Fire and brought into Paradise is indeed triumphant; but the life of this world is but a possession of illusion." 3185
-
Peace Arnold
How do you explain the hour in the following verse and many other verses.
25 11
Yusuf Ali Nay they deny the Hour (of the Judgment to come) but We have prepared a Blazing Fire for such as deny the HourTransliteration Bal kaz zabu_ bis sa_ah wa atadna_ liman kaz zaba bis sa_ati saira_
25 12
Yusuf Ali When it sees them from a place far off they will hear its fury and its raging sigh.Transliteration Iza_ ra at hum mim maka_nim baidin samiu_ laha_ tagay yuzaw wa zafira_
Also the following verse on the Day of Qiyama
11 97
Yusuf Ali Unto Pharaoh and his Chiefs but they followed the command of Pharaoh and the command of Pharaoh was no right (guide).
Transliteration Ila_ fir'auna wa mala'ihi fa- ttaba'u_ amra fir'aun(a), wa ma_ amru fir'auna bi rasyid(in).
11 98
Yusuf Ali He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment and lead them into the Fire (as cattle are led to water) but woeful indeed will be this leading (and) the place led to!
Transliteration Yaqdumu qaumahu_ yaumal qiya_mati fa auradahumun na_r(a), wa bi'sal wirdul mauru_d(u).
-
Peace Arnold
Peace
How do you explain the hour in the following verse and many other verses.
25 11
Yusuf Ali Nay they deny the Hour but We have prepared a Blazing Fire for such as deny the HourTransliteration Bal kaz zabu_ bis sa_ah wa atadna_ liman kaz zaba bis sa_ati saira_
25 12
Yusuf Ali When it sees them from a place far off they will hear its fury and its raging sigh.Transliteration Iza_ ra at hum mim maka_nim baidin samiu_ laha_ tagay yuzaw wa zafira_
Hour, Al-Sa'ah , literaly means any possible time . It refers to a moment of revolutionaire change. For example Raghib says that it refers to the resurrection, to the fall of a nation and to a death of a person. For example in 631 it is used for the death of a Nafs. The above verse you gave is a clear example where it can apply to a fall of a nation as well as the resurrection day. When you approach it as something in this life, then the Fire resemebles the misery they will fall into as a nation or individual. Like for example fall into a war or poverty. When a nation or individual refuses to accept God's revelation, somehwere in it's excistence, the nation or person will fall inot misery, this moment is the Hour, and the falling into misery is resembled by the Fire, as all they had earned is turned into waste.
When you approach it for the next life, it resembles the confrontation with the Truth. This confrontation will be like burning. I don't believe they will be thrown in a literal fire, but that it used as a metaphor for the state of agony the Self will be in when it will be confronted with it's deeds. The persons veils will be dropped that are on it's heart and it will see clearly all it has done and how much he deviaded from the Truth, and this will experienced as agony, like Fire.
As these verses explain beautifully
1044 Nay, he will be flung into the Hutuma.
1045 Ah, what will convey to you what the Hutuma is?
1046 A Fire kindled by Allah.
1047 Which originates in, and engulfs, the hearts.
1048 Verily, it closes upon them.
1049 In extended columns.Hutuma comes from hatima, which means it broke in parts. This refers to the illusions they had build up in this life, which will be crushed, shredded and broken. This confrontation will be like a Fire engulfing the heart.
Also the following verse on the Day of Qiyama
11 97
Yusuf Ali Unto Pharaoh and his Chiefs but they followed the command of Pharaoh and the command of Pharaoh was no right (guide).
Transliteration Ila_ fir'auna wa mala'ihi fa- ttaba'u_ amra fir'aun(a), wa ma_ amru fir'auna bi rasyid(in).
11 98
Yusuf Ali He will go before his people on the Day of Judgment and lead them into the Fire (as cattle are led to water) but woeful indeed will be this leading (and) the place led to!
Transliteration Yaqdumu qaumahu_ yaumal qiya_mati fa auradahumun na_r(a), wa bi'sal wirdul mauru_d(u).
1198 Clearly says Resurrection Day and not Judgement Day, yaumal qiyama , so this can only refer to when they are resurrected and they are confronted with their deeds, that he leads them into the Fire refers to that all of their harmfull deeds are because they had followed him, so he is the source, the leader, which they followed into misery.
The difference to my approach is that not that i don't believe in a punishment, no. I appraoch the words differently. I don't believe in a physical burning hell, which was taken from the persian and greek theology. What i believe, is that a Nafs, Self, should have attained a certain level of truth in them. If this is not attained, by believing in illusions as idolatry or commiting crimes, the Nafs will experience this as agony when they are resurrected in the New Universe. The burning is a metaphor for not attaing the right development. Djenna refers to positive evolution of the Nafs/Self, and Jahannam refers to stagnation of the Nafs where it is neither dead or alive.
-
Peace Arnold
Did you ponder over the following verse as well,
7 50
Yusuf Ali The companions of the fire will call to the companions of the garden; "pour down to us water or anything that Allah doth provide for your sustenance." They will say "Both these things hath Allah forbidden to those who rejected Him.
-
Peace,
yes of course, please read my article at 19.org
http//19.org/index.php?arnold
When you look at verse 746, it says that there is a veil between the people of Djenna and Jahannam, not a distance. So it is the states of mind in which they are that is different, not the places. For the people who have rejected the guidance, they will be in a state of agony and any knowledge in the next life they recieve will be like eating of the tree of zaquum, a real tree species in Arabia, which have bitter leaves that are filthy. Food and sustance in these verses refer to experience and knowledge. The people of Jahannam want the knowledge and experience of the people of Djenna, but because their Nafs has not attained the right level, they cannot reach Djenna. As they will know now that only the Truth is the real sustance of life.
-
I like that one
"will be like eating the tree of Zaqqum"
as if he knows the tree of Zaqqum and how it tastes so it will taste like it
rotfl rotfl rotfl
-
Peace AB,
The tree of Zaquum is a real excisting tree in Arabia, it can be found in the Tihamah province. It is a dustcoloured tree having small round leaves without thorns. It has a pungent odor, has knots in its stems and is bitter in taste. The heads of it's leaves are very foul, it bears a kind of intensely bitter and sticking fruit, and even camels are reluctant to eat them. When you eat these fruits, the real tree's fruits in this life, it gives a burning feeling in the belly and one needs a lot of water to quench the thirst although it will not take away the burning sensation. Zaquum also became a metaphor for any deadly food because of this quality.
-
Peace AB,
The tree of Zaquum is a real excisting tree in Arabia, it can be found in the Tihamah province. It is a dustcoloured tree having small round leaves without thorns. It has a pungent odor, has knots in its stems and is bitter in taste. The heads of it's leaves are very foul, it bears a kind of intensely bitter and sticking fruit, and even camels are reluctant to eat them. When you eat these fruits, the real tree's fruits in this life, it gives a burning feeling in the belly and one needs a lot of water to quench the thirst although it will not take away the burning sensation. Zaquum also became a metaphor for any deadly food because of this quality.
Salam
and where you got this info from?
-
Peace,
All Classic arabic dictionaries mention this, as well Bukhari in his commentary on the Quran. It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example. If i'm correct the tree can still be found in the Tihama province which is on the West coast of the Arabian peninsula. This region extends from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb straits. In the time of the Prophet, this is where the tree grew.
-
Peace,
All Classic arabic dictionaries mention this, as well Bukhari in his commentary on the Quran. It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example. If i'm correct the tree can still be found in the Tihama province which is on the West coast of the Arabian peninsula. This region extends from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb straits. In the time of the Prophet, this is where the tree grew.
Well bro
I never heard about what you are alleging neither I found any thing on google, as well I don't take hadith as an evidence
cheers
-
Peace,
That you can't find on google doesn't say anything, and that several dictionaries report it as an excisting tree doesn't surprise me at all. If you reject this because it is found in dictionaries and you believe dictionaries are hadith, then you can reject every meaning of arabic you were taught as these all come from hadith, outside sources, also. I am as carefull in rejecting as accepting. But it is indeed interresting to see if the tree still excists in the Tihama province.
-
Excuse me bro you came and said the followi g reagrding the Zaqqum tree
Arnold said
1)All Classic arabic dictionaries mention this,
2) as well Bukhari in his commentary on the Quran.
3) It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example.
4) The tree can still be found in the Tihama province which is on the West coast of the Arabian peninsula.
5) This region extends from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb straits.
6)In the time of the Prophet, this is where the tree grew.and despite that I found noting in googlr, who are you kiddin bro?
well if you goole Zaqqum, Zuqqum, Zaqum, or whatever you want to spell it, you will only find the Zuqqum tree mnetioned in the Quran that exist in hell
now for point number 3 abive
- It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example.
I found it so silly by you, well Allah told in the Quran that the tree comes out from the bottom of the hell not from the bottom of your Tihama province , keep listening to Satan man, you are doing exactly what he wants, good on you
Cheers
-
Peace,
AB, that it is not found in Google says nothing and you know that. And the Arabic dictionaries do mention this clearly, Lane's Lexicon, Tay's, Omar's dictionary. i'm as carefull to reject or accept. I don't see the crime and blasphemy really in believing a real tree is used as a metaphor in the Quran. As for your last point you give, it doesn't exclude at all if the tree doesn't excist in this world or not. As always you grab your 'you listen to satan and i don't' authority just because it devaides from your common sense or view, and in this case again it is a huge exgerration to use it with this. People who like to wave flags don't deserve one. This has backfired on you many times before brother. I hope in time you will see this.
Peace brother
-
Salaams arnold,
sorry Br. but your whole argument is screwed up.
there are two sets of verses which your confusing into one .
There are worldly verses , and there are verses talking about the hereafter and you have confused the issue by telling everyone they are all talking about the happenings in this the world.
You do need to reconsider the verses and see what i mean or we could talk about it if you like - after i come back from a small trip.
Gods Blessings.