Our attitude toward Sunni and Shia Muslims
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Peace Bro Said
You know until now, I have no idea what the shia faith is all about... I never was raised in it... The only thing I seem to know is that it is built upon a contention for the khilafat and some sense of guilt for the killing of the Prophet's grandson...
As far as sunni is concerned, I was not even aware that there was a problem, because for me I thought this was main-stream Islam...
Hadith I am neutral...
I am still trying to figure out what this whole fuss is all about... -
Peace ),
The Sunnists and the Shiahs are not really guilty of worshipping Muhammad or Ali or the Imams, instead they are guilty of setting them up as partners with God, just like those Christians who take Jesus as partner with the Father/God. As far as I know, even most Jews do not regard Moses or other figures as super special person who is only second to God. However, it is worth to mention that no matter what label people bear, as long as they do not set up anyone as partner with God and live according to God's laws which is righteous life, then they should automatically be muslims/submitters.
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And isn't it clearly incorrect that some on this forum say that Sunni and Shia muslims regard hadith even more than the Quran? Isn't it plain clear that for both Sunni and Shia muslims, the Quran, is the first and the foremost authority
I must disagree with you vehemently on this issue. The answer to your question is a BIG FAT NO
If you study the dogma and foundations of both the Sunni and Shia faith, you will find that the Hadiths have in fact cancelled the Quran completely.
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Peace all,
Well, I partially agree that some Sunni and Shia concepts have in effect canceled out some important parts of the Quran. And that that is unacceptable. However, at the basics, all Sunni and Shia recognize the Quran as the first and most important guide, hadith comes only second. And even within hadith acceptance, many will question or doubt many of the hadith themselves, trying to put a line between authentic and non-authentic ones. Thus, the point is, that even within the Sunni, Shia muslims group, there is a big variation, there is no unity amongst them in many topics, including the hadith.
The whole point is that shouldn't we look for more that unites us, whether than looking more at what separates us?
We shouldn't be breaking out in more and more debates and separations, but rather strive to unite more?The issue is that it is wrong to keep on villiyfing Sunni and Shia muslims beyond measure, rather than recognizing fellow human beings in them. This kind of attitude only creates more problems and does more harm.
Doesn't this kind of attitude consitute a form of arrogance on our behalf?
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Salam,
Yes, I agree at times it has gone wrong.
I've experienced, across the spectrum of sects, each group which rejoyces within itself seem to share many of the same characteristics. Some of these characteristics have been been personified by Pazuzu and Fabian's posts in regards to the group here on free-minds.
We seem to generalize and forget that within each so called sect, there are many individuals who are truely good human beings, servants of Allah. However, it seems much like the 6 o'clock news, it's more profitable to focus on negative points rather than on the positive.
With this said, yes, I believe that we aught to focus on that which Unites rather than that which seperates. As brother Noble has pointed out, "'We' are not able to agree amonge ourselves... what do you expect?"
Yeah, I expect that. It's very difficult to get even two people to agree 100% on everything. Why would we expect that more than two ever will? Perhaps, a good look at this would be to look into the background of what we "expect" the Truth to be like. Maybe this is for another discussion all together.
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Thus have We sent down Clear Signs; and verily Allah doth guide whom He will!
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Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.
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Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment and such as Allah shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour for Allah carries out all that He wills.
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These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
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With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
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In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
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Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"
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Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk.
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For they have been guided (in this life) to the purest of speeches; they have been guided to the Path of Him Who is Worthy of (all) Praise
peace.
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Peace,
From personal experience, I have asked several Sunnists in the past regarding their opinion over my stance as 'Hadith-ignorer', and most of them either laughed at me or called me 'kafir'. Now how can we unite with those people who wont even look at us as equal and listen to what we have to say?
When I say 'sunnists', Im not referring to the entire people in this world who claim to be Sunnis. Instead, Im talking about those people suits the criteria of straying away from God's path such as people who claim that this world was made for Muhammad or Hadiths that they consider authentic have absolute authority that equal to those in Al Quran or insist that people who do not meet their criteria of being 'muslims' should be treated as second class citizens.
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For sunnis we are equal to jews or christians. Sunnis also think of Shia's as Kafirs. And Shia's think that sunnis are Kafirs. Its a vicious circle.
I don't think we should qualify people on their official religious background. Christians - bad; Muslims - good.
People should be valued on how close are they with their belifes with KURAN. This is the only way to avoid racism, and insult.
By this criteria, I just cannot hate all christians or love all muslims or the other way around.
Freedom of movement, speech, choice, believing or not believing, freedom of thirst for knowledge etc, are values granted to us by Kuran, but upholded by christians and completely neglected by muslims.
It this matter they - christians are far better muslims than sunni or shia muslims.
Bible tells them to kill all apostates and those who commit Zina, but the christians decided not to obey this becouse its wrong.
Kuran never told us to do these kind of things, yet both Shias and Sunnis kill people for these kind of sins.
And thats why christians are better muslims then muslims.
And thats why muslims today are at the bottom, with very little hope. -
ible tells them to kill all apostates and those who commit Zina, but the christians decided not to obey this becouse its wrong.
Kuran never told us to do these kind of things, yet both Shias and Sunnis kill people for these kind of sins.
And thats why christians are better muslims then muslims.
And thats why muslims today are at the bottom, with very little hope.Peace Dion,
Your post is very generalized.
Dion with following your logic above, how can you explain the Crusades? Also the Spanish Inquisitions? (just a couple of begin with)
Also, what makes you believe Muslims today are at the "bottom, with very little hope"?
thanks
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in the Name of God The Most Merciful
In light of the oriiginal post, and being someone that is very interested in unity among all believers, Christian, Jew, and Muslim, let me give you a little of what I feel about Sunni's after just having been condemed by the high council of Why Islam for no other reason than standing firm on using only the Quran as my method of determining what is right from wrong. I no longer have the privledge of entering into any of the debates there because I am what they call a "Quranite".
There are many there who support me, but the powers that be are clearly determined to keep my posts from ever being seen by "new muslims", because in their opinion "it will confuse them", if we discuss the sect differences, or what got me restricted was my insistance to see proof that a woman "MUST" wear a hajab. No one could produce Quranic proof, therefore it cut them to the heart that the only real proof was found in thier haddith, and since I refuse to include that in my worship, I am seen as someone that questions the very "core beliefs" of Islam.
I further insisted that the Quran is the "Umpire" of ALL other scripture, the Torah, the Injel AND the HADDITH AND SUNNAH. You can imagine the response I get there.
Now, that being said I am still allowed to go to the "revert" area, that is set aside for ONLY muslims to see, so they do have some decent people there who still like me, but only in "quarenteen".
So now how can we get along with Sunni's who treat us like this? I never have seen the inside of a mosque, and I wonder what the response would be if I put up the same kind of conditions on the teachers there? Not good I suspect.
So just like when I was a loner as a Christian, I am finding I must now walk the same lonley road as a Muslim.
May the Peace of God be with each of you....
Dow Buzzell
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Your post is very generalized.
Dion with following your logic above, how can you explain the Crusades? Also the Spanish Inquisitions? (just a couple of begin with)
Also, what makes you believe Muslims today are at the "bottom, with very little hope"?
Peace Mehdi,
It may seem generalized, but in fact it calls for individual treatment of people not sectarian, racist or religous.
I think I said in my article that christians stoped obeing those orders from the bible, I didn't say they never obeyed them.
Also at those times (Crusades, Inquisition) freedom of speech and other freedoms I mentioned where not values embraced by christians. But Christian societies evolved constantlly and later adopted a lot of what Kuran preaches, whether we like it or not.
Let's see, Iran has about 150 milion dollars a day just from the oil sales. Other Arab countries maybe even more.
Yet those people are poor Mehdi. Our mouth is full of charity and Zakat but christian countries like Denmark, Germany, Sweden have these things very well regulated under social security laws. And this is how we are at the bottom.
What is the influence of Islamic Countries globaly? Bottom again.
What is the position of Islamic countries in science and technology developments today? Bottom.
I can go on like this but I think I made my point. -
salam Dion,
Please forgive me if I missed the details of your last post. Although I'm not 100% in agreeance with you on this subject, I understand the reasons why you are saying all of this. I agree fully with you on the individual treatment of people.
Thank you for your reply. May peace be on you.
salam Jahswolf,
I've been to different masjids in my area. Not everyone agrees, this is a fact. I don't believe people will always 100% agree. Out of the masjids I've been to, I've found some which are more tollorant than others. I believe this is in accordance to our daily lives and people in general. I've had very similar experience as you on a sunni message board. I was banned because of my views on music, hadith, and interpetation of the Quran. I was told that I was not to use my own mind to understand the Quran, but I should listen to the scholars.
All in all, I can't judge the whole body of Sunni because of this experience. Allah is the only Judge. I believe there is nothing wrong with walking alone.
There is a saying, "walk alone like a tusker in the woods and know no conflict."
May peace be on you.
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salam Jahswolf,
I've been to different masjids in my area. Not everyone agrees, this is a fact. I don't believe people will always 100% agree. Out of the masjids I've been to, I've found some which are more tolerant than others. I believe this is in accordance to our daily lives and people in general. I've had very similar experience as you on a Sunni message board. I was banned because of my views on music, hadith, and interpretation of the Quran. I was told that I was not to use my own mind to understand the Quran, but I should listen to the scholars.
All in all, I can't judge the whole body of Sunni because of this experience. Allah is the only Judge. I believe there is nothing wrong with walking alone. )
There is a saying, "walk alone like a tusker in the woods and know no conflict."
May peace be on you.
I tend to agree with you, that I cannot take my experience there and hold it against all people who claim the Sunni sect, as I know there are many there who are very kind, and understanding of where I am today, and are not into attempting to tell me how and what to believe.
Sunni's do not have the corner on those who use religion for power, I have witnessed it in many of the Christian Churches I attended during my lifetime. The best quote I can think of to illustrate this point is that of Stephen Jones the brother of Jim Jones the cult leader who lead his congregation to drink poison. Stephen said "My brother was not into religion, he was into power".
What I think those who are interested in unifying Islam's believers with all other believers in God should do, is to encourage what we have in common, and to play down our differences.
I suppose what I need to learn is to do more of this, and lose my 'attitude' toward those who wish to bully me into thinking their way, and when faced with those drunk on power, I should use the questioning tactic more. For example, "So you think that the hadith supersedes the Quran?"
Thank you for your response and helping me to reason away my feelings of rejection by Why Islam.
May Peace be with you
Dow
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Peace dear brothers and sisters,
Aren't our attitude towards Sunni and Shia muslims has gone way wrong? Isn't it ridiculous to call them idolworshippers? And at the same time, recognize Jews and Nazarean Christians as monotheists? What can be more ridiculous and incorrect than to call Sunni and Shia muslims Mohammedans? The term Mohammedans was used by Middle-Ages Europeans, who thought Islam was a religion, where Mohammed was worshipped as an idol, since they wouldn't accept that Muslims were worshipping the One and the same God, that they professed to worship to. Hence is the term - Mohammedans. For example, Christians worship Christ, and buddhists worship Buddha. Sunni and Shia muslims definetely do not fall under that category. What can be more incorrect than calling Sunni and Shia muslims Mohammedans?
Peace Said
I am not sure that I know enough about Jews to know whether their beliefs involve worshipping idols. However, I would say that the Christians and the Sunnis (I know very little about the Shias) both (in a way) worship 'Muhammad' and 'Jesus'. In reality they worship Paul, Bukhari etc. This is, at least, according to their official teachings. Of course beliefs are not a monolithic block and some people change their beliefs with time. When I watch/read Sunni material, I see so much reference to 'Muhammad' (and so little reference to God and the Quran) and perhaps this is why Europeans called them Mohammadans.
And shouldn't be our attitude be more embrasive towards them? This doesn't mean that we have to compromise with them on anything or to accept everything they endorse. It just means calling them to dialogue, and be more embrasive towards them, rather than insulting and alienating them.
Are we following the instuctions of the Almighty?
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
Exactly. We should remember that many of us were Sunnis in the past. Where might we be if people had insulted us etc. However, I am not sure I have seen a Sunni insulted here. However, I have seen a lot of insults between Muslims here which is sad to see.
And isn't it clearly incorrect that some on this forum say that Sunni and Shia muslims regard hadith even more than the Quran? Isn't it plain clear that for both Sunni and Shia muslims, the Quran, is the first and the foremost authority?
No, this is incorrect. Sunnis will say a lot of things, but you can see the reality in their beliefs. Hadith = first. In fact, I would say that they could easily discard the Quran and their beliefs would not alter one iota.
Roshan
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Salaam alaykum said,
And isn't it clearly incorrect that some on this forum say that Sunni and Shia muslims regard hadith even more than the Quran? Isn't it plain clear that for both Sunni and Shia muslims, the Quran, is the first and the foremost authority?
The reality is when sunni and shia say quran is the first and foremost authority, it is only LIP SERVICE. To prove it, bring them verse 6114 and see by yourself if they believe or disbelieve.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
I was also sunni, but I have always been taking quran as the first authority. If previously I set Bukhari as partners besides Allah, it is merely due to my unawareness => no warner had come to me. And then when verse 6114 was pointed out to me, instead of rejecting it (as sunni and shia do), I think deeply and study quran and hadith more.
I hope you get what I mean. What I am trying to say is, muslims are simply those who submit to Allah be the current label is sunni, shia, christian, jews, etc.
Can we call a sunni muslim if he clearly rejects 6114? My answer is NO (How can we call a sunni muslim if he is NOT submissive to Allah?).
Can we call kafir a christian who was born in Vatican and nobody has ever told him about Islam? My answer is NO (How can we call a person rejecter if he does NOT reject anything?)
Should we treat all sunnis as the same? My answer is NO. IMHO, by default we should consider them as muslims. Then we invite them to purify their aqeeda. If they accept (don't reject 6114 for example), then they are truly muslims (who are simply born as sunnis)! And if they reject, then I guess you know their true reality regardless of the label or the LIP SERVICE.