Jonah's whale! and was it a whale?
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Salaams,
37140-146.
When He remained upon the affair reviling/ blaming.
With such pursuing he was of the rejected.
Then he endeavoured to entice/ guile and he had done an act worthy of blame.
Had it not been that he was of those who glide along he would have remained in it fully till day of resurrection.
But we allowed him forth with a grieving heart and he (was) disordered/ distempered.
And we caused to grow over him the affair of mending.
And we sent him to a hundred thousand or even more and they believed and we gave him enjoyment for a while.Ith abaqa ila alfulki almashhooni
When he ran away (like a slave from captivity) to the ship (fully) laden,
141.
Fasahama fakana mina almudhadeena
He (agreed to) cast lots, and he was condemned
142.
Failtaqamahu alhootu wahuwamuleemun
Then the big Fish did swallow him, and he had done acts worthy of blame.
143.
Falawla annahu kana minaalmusabbiheena
Had it not been that he (repented and) glorified Allah,
144.
Lalabitha fee batnihi ilayawmi yubAAathoona
He would certainly have remained inside the Fish till the Day of Resurrection.
145.
Fanabathnahu bialAAara-iwahuwa saqeemun
But We cast him forth on the naked shore in a state of sickness,
146.
Waanbatna AAalayhi shajaratan minyaqteenin
And We caused to grow, over him, a spreading plant of the gourd kind.
147.
Waarsalnahu ila mi-ati alfinaw yazeedoona
And We sent him (on a mission) to a hundred thousand (men) or more.
148.
Faamanoo famattaAAnahum ilaheenin
And they believed; so We permitted them to enjoy (their life) for a while.Salaams.
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Peace,
Literal and scientific approach
Shabbir's Translation
37139 And, behold, Jonah was indeed among the Messengers.
37140 When he fled like a runaway slave onto a laden ship. (?Abaqa? = Fled like a runaway slave. He migrated before Allah?s Command. 2187).
37141 He had cast an arrow and missed the mark. (Untimely action.)
37142 Then the Fish grabbed him while he was blaming himself. (Again, usually a whale is mentioned here. But the whale is a mammal and not a fish, and the Qur?an which is never inaccurate, speaks of ?Al-Hut? = The Fish. ?Fa-altaqamahu? = Grabbed him in its teeth, not ?swallowed?. Another interesting fact is that the whale only feeds on the tiniest plant particles, the planktons. Hence, her throat has been designed so narrow that it can't swallow even a little cat. The fiction of Jonah staying 40 days in the belly of a whale is demolished right thus).
37143 And had he not been a valiant swimmer,
37144 (The fish would have eaten him up and) he would have remained in her belly disintegrated there and further until the Day of Rising.
37145Then We cast him on the shore, while he was exhausted. (6849).
Explanation of the Arabic used
Jonah was never swallowed by a fish, as EVERY fish known on earth will have to bite you in pieces before he can swallow you.
The word iltaqama doesn't only mean to swallow, it comes from the same root as laqm which means a small bite or little piece, iltiqama means he took him in his mouth/grabbed him in his teeth, as for example iltaqama fa-ha-fi-l-taqbil means he took her lips in his mouth during kissing. These verses are totaly distorted by the Biblical account.
Allegorical approach
Muhammed Asad's explanation of the verses
whereupon the great fish swallowed him, for he had been blameworthy.
(143)
And had he not been of those who extol God?s limitless glory, (144) he would indeed have remained in its belly till the Day when all shall be raised from the dead (145) but We caused him to be cast forth on a desert shore, sick as he was, (146) and caused a creeping plant to grow over him .
[I.e., to shade and comfort him. Thus, rounding off the allegory of Jonah and the fish, the Quran points out in the figurative manner so characteristic of its style that God, who can cause a plant to grow out of the most arid and barren soil, can equally well cause a heart lost in darkness to come back to light and spiritual life.
It is interresting that both explanations have both a message and meaning to me. They both appeal to me. When i approach the verse as a scientist i choose the 1st translation, but the one that gives a deep message for my Soul is Muhammed Asad's one. So for me this is again proof for what i believe is the best approach to the Quran. I believe the Quran is multilayered. Having Allegorical and literal sides hidden in the same verses.
Peace
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Salaams i might agree with you mostly ,
but it to me is - it was easy to understand-as i think it is depicted in the quran itself at various places so if i said its not easy or its multilayered or something i think i wouldn't be going along with Allah, who has said he has made it easy to grasp/ understand e.t.c.
i think just using a comprehensive dictionary is enough to know what its saying to you and i , don't you reckon?
God bless you.
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Peace,
In 2530 God warns us to not mahjoor/immobilize/limit the freedom of the Quranic message. As for dictionaries, i do watch out not go beyond the bounds but at the same time keep an open mind. As for the multilayered meanings, it is easy for an open mind....
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Peace be upon you
If the above views/translations are correct, will the following verses corroborate to your view. Please explain.
21 87
Yusuf Ali And remember Zun-nun when he departed in wrath he imagined that We had no power over him! But he cried through the depths of darkness "There is no god but Thou Glory to Thee I was indeed wrong!"21 88
Yusuf Ali So We listened to him and delivered him from distress and thus do We deliver those who have faith. -
Peace,
Zoeloemat al-bahr means calamities or distress at sea. That it also refers to darkness is because the human is not able to find his way out of the distress and harm, and by thus is wandering in darkness. It is important to know the whole background of arabic words to understand these verses. So by no means at all does the darkness refers to being inside a belly of a fish, which is also impossible as any belly contains acid. The darkness refers to the distress of the situation. I hope this explains it a bit. I like Muhammed Asad's allegorical approach, but the literal translation, by thus approaching it as a story that really happened, Shabbir's translation is the only one to be really accepted as the word iltaqama comes from the same root as laqm which means a small bite or little piece, iltiqama by thus can only really refer the fish took him in his mouth/grabbed him in his teeth, as the root refers to taking a small piece and not swallowing hin in whole.
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What can be said about a scientist who tries to follows 1st rule of thermodynamics but forgets the 2nd rule of thermodynamics ?
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Ship = a kind of ship like Nuh's, a symbol of vehicle to move men from a jahiliah life state to guided community.
Dzun-nun, or whale, a symbol of darkness, Jonah being unpatienly to lead his men, so he came back to previous life (darkness/dzulumat). He realized his wrong doing - as Adam eating an apple a symbol of musyrik life state - come back to Allah by presenting new 100.000 disciples/moslems to Allah.
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Hello All
37142 clealy said it is a Hoot i.e. a Whale, any one who says anything but that is a clear cut manipulator
Cheers
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Salaams All.
According to lanes
Page 663
Hoot = endeavouring or striving to turn or entice, by guile, like as the fish does in water.
i.e He strove, or consulted , to repel him.
Gods Blessings to all.
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Then lanes is a clear cut manipulator
cheers
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Peace,
Al-Hut is a fish, that it later on also was used for whale, was because of Biblical influences made people interpretate it as a whale in those verses, by blindly relying on the Bible story. In that time people didn't knew the difference between a sea-mammal and a fish, so for them it was the same. But now we know better, and know we do know the difference between a sea-mammal and a fish. Al-Hut only means 'The Fish', the 'whale' meaning is a fixed and created meaning through the ignorance of not knowing the difference and through following the Biblical story, and not a real meaning. This is a logical and innocent mistake.
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Hello All
there is only one word that is used for a Whale and it is a Hoot, anything suggested by others is total non sense, and if you read the story closely you will see that it is clearly a whale and the whale can swallow without biting and if the whale does not, remember that Allah can make the whale do just that to protect Jonah
there is no doubt that what Arnols says is a total non sense and total manipulation to the Arabic language
Subhan Allah,
I guess Arnold, you will be held accountable big times on the JD for those whom it seems delibertly being mislead by you and I tell you mate, I will never allow this to happen (to mislead non arabic speakers) as long as I'm alive and a member on this web site
Salam
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Peace,
All dictionaries, written by arabs or non-arabs all say al-hut means fish. AB, question for you
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Can Al-Hut ONLY refer to a whale or ALSO a fish?
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The word iltaqama comes from the same root as laqm which means a small bite or little piece?
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That iltaqama fa-ha-fi-l-taqbil means he took her lips in his mouth during kissing?
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That zoeloemat al-bahr means calamities or distress at sea. That it also refers to darkness is because the human is not able to find his way out of the distress and harm, and by thus is wandering in darkness?
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That all the arabic you have learned throughout your life is not a static but a live-language which can change over time, and that the meaning of words are determined by the use of those words by the majority, so that the meanings of words you have learned also come from hadith=hearsay/tellings/talk?
These are YES or NO questions.
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Peace,
Hello
All dictionaries, written by arabs or non-arabs all say al-hut means fish.
Well these dictionaries are for you and not for me, in Arabic I don?t translate words into another language to figure out what it means
AB, question for you
- Can Al-Hut ONLY refer to a whale or ALSO a fish?
No, unless we consider the Hut belongs to the fish specious because it lives in the sea, so we can say ?not scientifically accurate yet acceptable? that it is a type of fish named ?Hut? like other type of fish named ?Shark?
- The word iltaqama comes from the same root as laqm which means a small bite or little piece?
The word Luqma, has nothing to do with biting, this is you and the likes of you who lacks Arabic trying to convey, the word luqma means a mouth full, i.e. the size of a mouth full, it has nothing to do with biting mister know it all, now when you apply this, apply on a whale and his mouth full, not your mouth full, also your anatomy of the whale is not admissible because you took Allah ability out of the picture that He can make a whale swallow Jonah without hurting him
Now let me ask you and I would like an yes no answer
Do you believe that Allah can do anything without any restriction or limitation at any time?
- That iltaqama fa-ha-fi-l-taqbil means he took her lips in his mouth during kissing?
No
we are not goimg to talk sex here mate, this is also BS by you and does not exist in Arabic, it is called ?Qabbal Fa Ha? mister know it all and this means Kiss her mouth
- That zoeloemat al-bahr means calamities or distress at sea. That it also refers to darkness is because the human is not able to find his way out of the distress and harm, and by thus is wandering in darkness?
how the hell I answer the above as Yes, No?
well, I have to dismiss it then, sorry
regardless of what you are trying to say, Jonah was in the belly on the whale and the whale was in the darkness in the sea, therefore Jonah was in the darkness of the sea, see, A=B & A=C, therefore B=C
for the next item, because you are talking about my life which you have zero knowledge of I have to break it up
5. That all the arabic you have learned throughout your life is not a static but a live-language which can change over time,Hehe, then prove to us that Hut meant fish about 2500 years ago, can you do that mister before you bloody talk about my life
and that the meaning of words are determined by the use of those words by the majority,
well, I don?t really know how many know that Hut means Hut in Arabic, if you know what I mean
so in Arabic I say it like this Hut is Hut
so that the meanings of words you have learned also come from hadith=hearsay/tellings/talk?
Here is a yes no answer
NO
These are YES or NO questions.
really?
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Peace,
All dictionaries, written by arabs or non-arabs all say al-hut means fish.
Well these dictionaries are for you and not for me, in Arabic I don?t translate words into another language to figure out what it means
Till now that is the only thing you have done here. And dictionaries follow the rules of the language, and not that of the majority. Just like you they can make mistakes, but that is why i refer to several and just one.
AB, question for you
- Can Al-Hut ONLY refer to a whale or ALSO a fish?
No, unless we consider the Hut belongs to the fish specious because it lives in the sea, so we can say ?not scientifically accurate yet acceptable? that it is a type of fish named ?Hut? like other type of fish named ?Shark?
The problem here is that a whale is not a fish, but a sea-mammal.
- The word iltaqama comes from the same root as laqm which means a small bite or little piece?
The word Luqma, has nothing to do with biting, this is you and the likes of you who lacks Arabic trying to convey, the word luqma means a mouth full, i.e. the size of a mouth full, it has nothing to do with biting mister know it all, now when you apply this, apply on a whale and his mouth full, not your mouth full, also your anatomy of the whale is not admissible because you took Allah ability out of the picture that He can make a whale swallow Jonah without hurting him.
Again dictionaries completly disagree with you. It also has nothing to do with swallowing. Laqama refers to 'take in mouth' be it a small piece or a big piece, or a whole piece, it does not refer to swallowing.
Now let me ask you and I would like an yes no answer
Do you believe that Allah can do anything without any restriction or limitation at any time?
Yes of course. But is that on dispute here? No, not all. It is about if the verses are approached wrong. The arabic allows that it doesn't mean Jonah was swallowed but just grabbed. Allah says throughout the Quran He will not change His laws, this includes Laws of nature, it is not about if He can't do it, it is about that He will not, plus in these verses there is no need to approach it in a supernatural way.
- That iltaqama fa-ha-fi-l-taqbil means he took her lips in his mouth during kissing?
No
we are not goimg to talk sex here mate, this is also BS by you and does not exist in Arabic, it is called ?Qabbal Fa Ha? mister know it all and this means Kiss her mouth
Raghib, Lane, Ibn Manzur's Lisan Al-arab and Tay's all say this does excist in arabic. You are not the only authority on arabic.
- That zoeloemat al-bahr means calamities or distress at sea. That it also refers to darkness is because the human is not able to find his way out of the distress and harm, and by thus is wandering in darkness?
how the hell I answer the above as Yes, No?
Well, can it mean that? Yes or No, is not really that difficult.
for the next item, because you are talking about my life which you have zero knowledge of I have to break it up
You yourself have said many times you grew up in Egypt and have learned arabic just by living in an arab country.
5. That all the arabic you have learned throughout your life is not a static but a live-language which can change over time,Hehe, then prove to us that Hut meant fish about 2500 years ago, can you do that mister before you bloody talk about my life.
Only through dictionaries, but these are more trustworthy then to depend on modern arabic, as a language is never static but ever changing. So can you disprove it cannot mean fish?
so that the meanings of words you have learned also come from hadith=hearsay/tellings/talk?
Here is a yes no answer
NO
All the arabic you have learned in your life comes from a second source. They have taught you the meanings and its uses. So you learned arabic through hearsay, how it is used in your surroundings. So this only represents the arabic of Egypte in the 20-21st century and not arabic in it's total.
You approach these things in your view, and i in mine. But you have no authority to call my view nonsense as many reliable sources will disagree with you. Of course the dictionaries are not a 100% reliable, but they have more authority as they refer more to classic arabic as used in the Quran, then the modern arabic you use. That you disagree with this approach is based on personal preferences, and not on if it is possible or not. So your condemning is again out of place, baseless and dangerous as God will question it as He will question me.
"When reason is against man, man is against reason."
Peace
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Peace be upon you,
Wether "whale" of "big fish", the MORAL of the story is not lost, so lets not get sidetracked.
The elements of fire and water teach us to be moderate in all things. A little fire is good, like the burning bush for heat or cooking food or providing light, the lot of fire is bad like hellfire, house burning down, etc. likewise, a little water is good, rain to grow food and drink and wash, but a lot of water is bad like a flood.
The whale/big fish belongs to the BIG WATER. Just like with Noahs flood, we must create a stable foundation in order to get across the waters without drowning. A lot of water creates an INSTABLE situation, compared to dry land. We are in search of stable foundations, so we can build, not sandy cliffs. This is why Jonah was put on dry land, a stable foundation after he had been lurking around in instability. Its always good to work from a PLAN, not just drift aimlessly. We see this symbolism in Moses parting the sea, in order to cross on dry ground/stable foundation.
The water represents the subconscious, which is a sleep state and relates to darkness. Most of mankind are trapped in subconcious(not awake). Thats why the flood drowns all the wicked, because the righteous are CONSCIOUS/AWAKE, on solid foundation (Boat).
Let us all be those who are awake, guarding our subconcious from the programming of the wicked philosophies.
Wether the fish bit him or swallowed him, he certainly cannot breath underwater. This is just a metaphorical story, nothing literal about it.
Latsly, I agree with what was already said about the tree/plant growing from him.
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Quote from Ahmed Bahgat on Today at 015722 PM
Now let me ask you and I would like an yes no answerDo you believe that Allah can do anything without any restriction or limitation at any time?
Quote from arnoldyasin
Yes of course. But is that on dispute here? No, not all. It is about if the verses are approached wrong. The arabic allows that it doesn't mean Jonah was swallowed but just grabbed. Allah says throughout the Quran He will not change His laws, this includes Laws of nature, it is not about if He can't do it, it is about that He will not, plus in these verses there is no need to approach it in a supernatural way.A widely accepted law of nature 'whales hunt seals in water n near beaches to feed themselves'. Now sometime ago there was a program on discovery channel about whales in which they captured 'whales playing with baby seal as if it was a ball and later depositing the baby back to shore'.
The question is how authentic are the natural laws said by scientists. What is natural and super natural ?
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Peace,
In a belly there is acid which will dissolve the human flesh in a instant. Plus, Ha-Wow-Ta, Hut refers to a fish and not a sea-mammael. Plus the seals will be bitten several times so they will be dead or near dead before swallowed as otherwise it is possible they will damage the stomack-walls when still alive and in panic. This factor cannot be ignored, as any sperm-whale or orca will not swallow a pray without first biting it several times between its teeth. Plus the acid is so strong, it will dissolve the skin rapidly. The arabic clearly allows a much more rational answer so i don't know why people hold on to biblical story which creates tons of contradictions. But people may decide themselves what they believe, as do i.
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Peace be upon you all,
Wether in the belly or in the mouth, its still not literal. Just like seasbeing split in two, sticks turning to snakes, etc.