Salaat: Bond and now Oath Of Allegiance, whats next????
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As Salaamu Alaykum BOOST
When you said this
"But we all know what we're talking about when Bro Al Khidr mentions that "oath of allegience" isn't "fixing" any issue about salat. We all know he means the PHYSICAL PRAYER THAT WE MUST GET OUR ARROGANT SELVES ON THE FLOOR WITH OUR HEADS DOWN TO DO.Yes we may look STRANGE when we must bow down and touch our heads to the floor."
This is exactly what I was talking about and I am so glad you understand something that was so clear.
Alhamdulillah to this
"You can do EVERYTHING like them and give up your identity and integrity and STILL they will NOT ACCEPT YOU. So let's stop this continual watering down and dumbing down and start embracing our own identity and letting The God be our one and only GOD instead of putting other people's opinions of us as higher."
I personally could never bow down to this new age, christianized form of Islaam because my only MASTER that I recognize, fear and bow down to is Allah.
When I created that 3 Salaat Theory thread and was debating some of these Progressive Muslims, it gave me the opportunity to scutinize their translation and their catechisms and its very clear that they want to water down Islaam and they attempted to sell this with the foolish concept that we need to translate everything in an English translation of Al Qur'aan. This is nothing but a ploy to innovate their sectarian beliefs disguised or masked as Pure Islaam, following Qur'aan ALONE.
Salaam
Peace Bro Al Khidr
Preach on Brother ;D
This whole salat issue is really dumbing-down Islam, watering it down to nothing. Every religion known to man has some form of meditation/PRAYER and yes I boldly use the word prayer because sorry folks... you can't talk to non-Arabic speaking people and say salat. Then when they ask you what's salat you tell them it's a meditation, a bond, an oath of allegience, a connection with the God, a bla bla bla. They'll look at you like you're a fruitcake because this is just ludacris. I don't deny that salat has many shades of meanings. But we all know what we're talking about when Bro Al Khidr mentions that "oath of allegience" isn't "fixing" any issue about salat. We all know he means the PHYSICAL PRAYER THAT WE MUST GET OUR ARROGANT SELVES ON THE FLOOR WITH OUR HEADS DOWN TO DO.Yes we may look STRANGE when we must bow down and touch our heads to the floor. We look STRANGE when we take time out during the day to do this. But we have the option of looking STRANGE and only fearing the God and not stupid lost people or our other option is to look like sell-out fools who have clearly watered-down our deen for a cheap gain of trying to look "normal" to the West when they will NEVER fully accept us anyway. This is clearly written in the quran. You can do EVERYTHING like them and give up your identity and integrity and STILL they will NOT ACCEPT YOU. So let's stop this continual watering down and dumbing down and start embracing our own identity and letting The God be our one and only GOD instead of putting other people's opinions of us as higher.
I commend you Bro Al Khidr for not bowing down to this new-age, new world order conformity b.s.
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The group known as "ProgressiveMuslims" does not have an official view.
This website (free-minds.org) and its forum and its other site (progressivemuslims.org) has no official view/beliefs.
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Salaam Wakas
I think your gettng emotional again. This forum has the name "Progressive" so I use the term. I have made comments in the past that denote that not all Progressive Muslims believe the same or practice the same. But on the other hand you cannot also deny that are a lot of common notions that are accepted.
You said that there is no official views or beliefs but some one (singular or plural) is making the translation official under the name of "Progressive Muslims"
Salaam
The group known as "ProgressiveMuslims" does not have an official view.
This website (free-minds.org) and its forum and its other site (progressivemuslims.org) has no official view/beliefs.
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If you think I am emotional, that is up to. You can also think I am 7 feet tall if you wish.
I was simply pointing out something which your original post seems to miss. You clearly think of "ProgressiveMuslims" as some sort of official group, with an official view
Allow me to quote you (emphasis in bold, mine)
I have never witnesses a group of Muslims before who frequently change the translation of the Arabic word Salaat, in all my life. It was just yesterday the Progressive Muslims translated Salaat as "Bond" and now they translate Salaat as "Oath Of Allegiance". I'm very curious why are the Progressive Muslims now translating Salaat as "Oath Of Allegiance" in their August 29, 2006 update?
If you wish to prove your point, please name/list the "ProgressiveMuslims" who say this translation represents their view or they believe "salat" means "oath of allegiance".
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Wakas
You are getting into a game of semantics. The translation bares the name "Progressive Muslims", so there is some one (plural or singular) translating the Qur'aan under the labal or group or name or sect, which ever you want to call it. You must be getting emotional because you are taking acceptions to the fact that I use the obvious name "Progressive Muslim". This name is on this forum and its the same name thats on the translation of The Message or Qur'aan. Yes its true, there are differences of opinions, beliefs here but yet there are also a lot of common notions that are accepted. Its pointless and a waste of time for me to gather a list of names in addition to the ones who are responsible for this translation. I targeted certain things about this translation and I used the name that is commonly associated with it, which is "Progressive Muslims" and if you don't like it, then its a personal problem and I'm not concerned with personal problems. Wakas also I have asked the following question when I opened up this thread
I'm very curious why are the Progressive Muslims now translating Salaat as "Oath Of Allegiance" in their August 29, 2006 update?
Which no one who is responsible for the translation or any body who is not responsible for the translation but have knowledge of why the change has NOT provided an answer to the question.
Salaam
If you think I am emotional, that is up to. You can also think I am 7 feet tall if you wish.
I was simply pointing out something which your original post seems to miss. You clearly think of "ProgressiveMuslims" as some sort of official group, with an official view
Allow me to quote you (emphasis in bold, mine)
I have never witnesses a group of Muslims before who frequently change the translation of the Arabic word Salaat, in all my life. It was just yesterday the Progressive Muslims translated Salaat as "Bond" and now they translate Salaat as "Oath Of Allegiance". I'm very curious why are the Progressive Muslims now translating Salaat as "Oath Of Allegiance" in their August 29, 2006 update?
If you wish to prove your point, please name/list the "ProgressiveMuslims" who say this translation represents their view or they believe "salat" means "oath of allegiance".
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Its pointless and a waste of time for me to gather a list of names in addition to the ones who are responsible for this translation.
Are you sure its pointless? Perhaps once you struggle to compile the list you will realise why I asked you to do so.
Wakas
Yes from my end its pointless. Now how about the question to my thread, do you have the answers for this question
I'm very curious why are the Progressive Muslims now translating Salaat as "Oath Of Allegiance" in their August 29, 2006 update?
Salaam
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Salaam Arnold
The translation "the oath of allegiance", does not capture what you have described below. I am talking about the main concept of Salaat, when we recite the Fatihah, the physical positions that we do, the things we say in Arabic etc. etc. etc. and "bond" nor "the oath of alegiance" captures Salaat. It is starting to get rediculous. I also notice to with some people in the forum. When they first changed Salaat to "bond", then you had a lot of people following or should I say blind following and trying to make sense of the translation as though that translation is accurate and now they have changed it again to "the oath of allegiance" and Arnold now you will see the followers (those who do not think independently) will now try to make sense of this new twisted/mistranslation for salaat and when they debunk "the oath of allegiance" and concoct a new English word or phrase and then we will see this same pattern again and again. When one studies the Arabic word Salaat "the oath of allegiance" is very limited and does not even come close in tapping into the depth, strength and understanding of the Arabic word "Salaat". But I have to keep reminding my self that the same people who are doing this performs either 3 or 2 Salaat or no Salaat at all.
Salaam
Peace,
Salaat means multiple things. It means 'following closely to gain the best positions as the runner-up horse is catching up on the first horse in a race' it refers to the 'middle of the back', in the Quran it means to following the Divine Commands, contact, bond, allegiance, obligations, adherence, attachment, commitment, prayer and more.
Iqama-Salat refers to
- establish that comes through following the Divine Commands=creating the Deen
- establish the Prayer
- fulfill the obligations
- honour the allegiance
and more...
So to say it can only mean one thing is falsehood. Sometimes only one meaning fits, sometimes multiple meanings fit, this depends on the context of a verse and the cross-reference. We are warned not to shackle the Quran's message as a cow bound head to horn 2530, so please let's stop doing that...
Qur'aan 23
Those who believe in the unseen, even when alone in their privacy, establish the Deen and prayers, honour the commitment and allegiance and fulfill their obligations(=all meanings Iqama-Salat), and from Our provisions to them, they share willingly.Peace
Salat's meaning of prayer is only a second layer-meaning. Also 'oath of allegiance' i believe only really fits in 911 and maybe a few more verses. The main meaning of Salat is 'to follow the Divine Commands'. The Quran's main message is to establish the Deen. Worship is only a smart part of the Deen, not its main and important part. So people's contribution to the Deen is the real criteria and not if they pray 2, 3 or not at all. As long as you believe prayer is the main meaning of Salat, you will not see the main purpose of the Quran and by thus condemn people on things while it is only a minor thing inside the Deen. I agree that 'oath of allegiance' is not the main meaning of Salat, but prayer is also not the main meaning of Salat.
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Peace Bro Arnold
Nobody has to condemn anybody for salat to equal prayer. If you're worried that some people will not be considered Muslim by other people because they decide not to pray, then you've missed the whole point of deen. We were created to worship God Alone. ALL commandments in the quran are equally important. If someone doesn't follow a commandment no human being can really judge them, only the Almighty. But that doesn't mean that we need to water that commandment down as much as possible so that others don't think we're 'kafirs'. This is a weak argument that shows the underlying reason for all these new "translations" of salat... "what others will think of me if I don't pray 5 times a day and what others will think of me if I do"
Peace Bro Al Khidr
I doubt anyone will ever confess to what their nafs has concealed in their reasons for starting such a project. But it's excellent that you question it and raise other's awareness about it so that others can be forewarned...
Much Respect to All
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As Salaamu Alaykum Arnold
You have said some good things but I noticed that you sneaked this one in
?So people's contribution to the Deen is the real criteria and not if they pray 2, 3 or not at all.?
This is what I?m talking about. The ball players here are watering down the presence of Islaam. If Allah have decreed specific times to observe Salaat, that means it has to be done, it?s not an option since this is decreed by Allah. Observing the specific times is not a ritual either like some would like to call it. Rather it?s prescribed by Allah, so its part of the prescribed way of life that Allah has revealed for us to adhere/follow/observe in Islaam.
Allah has decreed specific times to observe Salaat and Allah?s command is not to be ignored
Qur?aan 4103
?the Salaat are decreed for the believers at specific times.What you have advocated is not an option, so it DOES MATTER how many times we observe Salaat.
Again it is important for us to adhere, follow, observe the specific times Allah commands us to observe Salaat. If Allah has prescribed certain periods of time to observe Salaat, then that right there is very very important and would not be over looked by Muslims who believe in Allah and want to submit their will to the will of Allah unconditionally. However, there are many people here present who believes in either a 3 or 2 Salaat Theory or no Salaat at all and of course men & women like that would love suggestions by others who advocate the following ??not if they pray 2, 3 or not at all.? That?s why I have CHALLENGED the 3 Salaat Theorist in the following links to set the record straight and to re-established part of the prescribed way of life Allah decreed/commanded for us to follow which is observing 5 Salaat
Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htmExposing The 3 Salaat Theory Thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6028.0Below is a good article for any one who would like to read why it?s important to observe the 5 Salaat as prescribed by Allah on time by Abdul Arik
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/importance_of_five_times.html
His homepage with more links on Salaat
http//www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/index.html
Arnold in closing in regards to your statement here, ??not if they pray 2, 3 or not at all.? Satan would love this advice especially your last comment ?or not at all.? Believers will follow, adhere, observe Allah?s LAW and worship (Salaat) 5 times a day and will not compromise this for no man-made doctrine
Qur?aan 4221
They follow idols who decree for them religious laws never authorized by Allah. If it were not for the predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred a painful retribution.These principals are so simple and basic but yet, they are being mystified through these way out new age, christianized forms of translations and doctrines perpetrated by unlearnt men or those who are concealing what they know is truth. Allah?s way of life (Al Islaam) is simple, it is Peaceful.
Salaam
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Peace,
People always get sucked into these discussions of the
mutashabihverses and lose focus of whay the Scripture was revealed.Quran is about the law.
Take whatever meaning you want and move on...It is the laws and their implementation (or lack therefof) that needs our focus.
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Peace be upon you all,
The God's message to us is about changing behavior, which involves reprogramming of the nafs(subconcious). What is being done here is an attempt to bring the message down to real life , everyday experience. We dont change behavior by putting our face in the dirt and reciting verses from a book. We change behavior by way of the TRANCE, which is how we learn EVERYTHING. Salaat is the process of meditation, which deals with your state of RECEPTIVITY (the ability to remember). Trance is a state of being we go in and out of everyday, wether we are daydreamiomng, or very excited, etc. It is these times that what we nourish in our minds becomes burned into our pshyche.
Its not enough to HEAR TRUTH, it must then be PROGRAMMED into the NAFS(spirit/subconcious). Thats how something is REMEMBERED, and that is how it prevents you from evil deeds. Because when the challenge comes to yuou, the AUTOMATIC response must be righteousness. The sermon you heard or the words you recited while on your face wont come to save you unless yuo have IMPREGNATED your spirit(virgin) with the God's word so that the Word can become flesh(actions).
Stop holding on to the lies WE ALL were taught thinking that better education means trying to water garbage down.
This salaat ritual that millions do has not done ANYTHING to change behavior on a consistent basis. All religions produce results from time to time because people do not understand the concept of TRANCE. But we go in and out all the time and it is only by mastering this concept that we can take full control of the programming of our Spirit(nafs). And remember, the God does NOT change the condition of a people until they FIRST change what is in thier spirit/subconcious(nafs) (1311)
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Peace Bro IdolFree1
Your definition of what salat does for the nafs is excellent and very deep. God Bless you. It doesn't fit the category of new-age "oath of alleigence" so I definitely agree with you. I still think there are motions necessary for salat as well as specific times to do them. Many forms of "meditation" have different positions anyway. They only become ritualistic when we make them a race to the finish and even forget what position we just finished. And it's also important to point out that prayer by its very definition is a form of meditation. We shouldn't be afraid to use the english term, prayer, for salat as that really is what it is. It takes on a different form than du'a but that doesn't make it a different animal that non-Arabic speakers would be hard-pressed to ever try to figure out...
I think I speak for many when I say that I am very much waiting on hot coal for your long-awaited article on this whole issue.
God Bless to All
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Peace be upon you Boost,
Thank you for the kind words and I am sorry for not having finished by now. The problem is I am being lazy and trying to make changes to another article when I really need to just write from the beginning. I will set another finish date for this weekend.
