Kaaba at Jerusalem and not at Mecca
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Peace be upon you
Brother,
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Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah nor of the Sacred Month nor of the animals brought for sacrifice nor the garlands that mark out such animals nor the people resorting to the Sacred House seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the Sacred Precincts and of pilgrim garb ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety but help ye not one another in sin and rancor fear Allah for Allah is strict in punishment.
I guess the verse is quite clear on the hunting restriction outside the sacred area. Maybe the main reason for restriction for hunting in the sanctuary is if large number of pilgrims are allowed to hunt during pilgrimage they might destroy the flora and the fauna of the area on which the people of the vicinity depend for their livelihood and also may be like you said may coincide with the seasons and life patterns of animals.
I believe you are correct on the non restrictions on fishing during Pilgrimage or otherwise.
? There is enough fish in the sea.?Although I can not see much connection with fishing and Mecca (I guess the red sea is 50 miles) but the Holy Land comprising of Jerusalem is quite close to Mediterranean Sea (35miles) and fishing is quite common in those areas. (I do not have strong evidence on rivers in this area though)
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Peace be upon you
An analysis of the related verses on the subject didn?t make sense to me to accept that Ka?abah, Sanctuary, Makkah, Bakkah, Sacred precincts, Sacred Mosque, Temple/Mosque , House , My house, House of Allah , Sacred house , Ancient house and Valley without cultivation all referring to the one and the same place. Also Makkah and Bakka can not be names of the same place for obvious reasons. I guess the Quraan explains two places. Mecca and Jerusalem.
Also the Quraan does not say Ka?abah (Ka?abah does not mean cube. See Note below) and the Masjidul Haram/Sacred Mosque are the same place. Neither does it say Baiti/Baitillah (My House/House of Allah) is the Cube shaped structure in Mecca.
Note?
However, the meaning of ?cube? associated to this word has no basis in the Scripture itself nor even to the Arabic language still in use today (the word for cube is mu?ka?ab, not kaaba or kaab).The word ?Kaab/Kaaba? are associated in Arabic to any feature that is protruding, such as the bones to the side of the ankles ??
source http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh2.htm
I guess ?sanctuary? is a better translation of Baitillah than ?House of Allah?. Sacred Precincts/Sanctuary (Baitil Haram/ Baitillah ) seems to be referring to the region of Jerusalem (the city of peace, possibly the region about which Abraham prayed to Allah in 1435 to make it a secure region/city ) . If the above is the case it will automatically suggest that the Hajj/Pilgrimage is to Jerusalem and also that the Ka?abah is the rock out cropping in the temple mount where the ?Dome of The Rock? now stands and in which sacrifice/offering has been taking place through out ancient times.
But the Sacred Mosque (Masjidul Haram) can be very well referring to the mosque in Mecca which is the focal point mentioned in the Quraan. I guess we have mixed up the Qiblah/Focal point and the Pilgrim point. The Masjidul Haram in Mecca has been a temple important for Arabs even before Islam and there was no temple/mosque standing in Jerusalem in the area in which both the mosque known as Masjidul Aqsa and Dome of the Rock now stands at the time the Quraan was reveled. These two mosques were built after the Prophet.
Also from what I observed there seems to be no verse connecting the Ka?abah and the Qibla (focal point) and the Quraan simply says the focal point is towards Masjidul Haram (Mosque in Mecca) which to an Arab at that time was the most sacred temple according to information below.
Note
Bibliotheca Historica, a history by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, makes several possible references to the Kaaba. Edward Gibbon quotes Diodorus in The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca
Edward Gibbon writes about the Ka'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book
..... of blind mythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, of their sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, each independent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantastic worship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to the language of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC who wrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. The following lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book of Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the the holiest in the whole of Arabia.
And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference ). G E von Grunebaum says
Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.http//www.submission.org/hajj/kaaba.html
Further on this ,
Based on the above Masjidul Haram is more plausible for the Arabs at that time to mean the Sacred Mosque in Mecca since it was supposed to be the most sacred temple for the Arabs even before Islam. The verses below ? a focal point which will please you? and ? a similar favour?a messesneger of your own? maybe pointing to something the Arab prophet and the Arabs at that time can identify with.
2144 ? We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee .Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; ?????..?
2151? A similar (favor have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Apostle of your own rehearsing to you Our signs??????..?
Further ,
Note
?The Persians (under Khosrau) made several military victories against Roman forces (under Heraclius) and with the help of the Jews , Persians took Jerusalem in 614 (damaging the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and capturing the Holy Cross in the process).But Heraclius rebuilt his army by 621 and from theron with continuous militray gains against the Persians the Roman forces defeated the Persians at the Battle of Nineveh in 627. In 630, Heraclius reached the height of his power, marching barefoot as a pious Christian pilgrim into Jerusalem and restoring the True Cross to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.? ( Source wikipedia )
While the above was taking place in Persia and Byzantium , Muhammed was spreading Gods message in Arabia. Possibly up to 627 (or maybe 630) there was no cross erected in Jerusalem since it was under the Persians , and the Jews were allowed to carry on their religious services and offerings , but after the Roman victory ( under Heraclius) the cross was erected, possibly making it an unsuitable focal point for muslims. This may be an explanation to the change of Qiblah /focal point.
Also,
I pointed out in 2 earlier posts although the offering is mentioned in 2 verses either to be ?near the ancient house/ancient sanctuary? or ?offered to the Ka?abah? the sacrifice/offering can not and does not take place at Mecca in modern day Hajj/pilgimage.
Also I did not find any verse directly connecting the Hajj/pilgrimage to the Sacred Mosque as a duty mankind owes to Allah. Although it might be not wrong to visit and pray in the Sacred Mosque.
This is my analysis on the subject, although it can be a controversial analysis I have taken these points from my understanding of the Quraan. But I am open for better analysis and an explanation by anyone using the Quraan.
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Peace warner
So from your analysis what you are concluding is that- Jerusalem is the place where pilgrimage and offerings are to be done.
- The focal point for prayer is Mecca...
Very interesting... I read your post, it seems cohesive.
Layth, any comment?
Salam
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Peace warner
So from your analysis what you are concluding is that- Jerusalem is the place where pilgrimage and offerings are to be done.
- The focal point for prayer is Mecca...
Very interesting... I read your post, it seems cohesive.
Layth, any comment?
Salam
Hey mate
I would like to remind you that we as muslims should try to do hajj to Jerusalem as the prophet told us, i.e. for Jerusalem of being a place to do Hajj does not contradict anything, I can show the hadith of the prophet regarding this, the bottom line is this, Al Masjid Al Haram was built in uncultivated valley, not a cultivated hill
Salam
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Hey mate bro buddy ) Ahmed
I have no problems with any situation, so far as it is a fact, and is pleasing to Allah...
By the way is your health better?
Salam WR WB (follow Al Quran ) - If someone gives you a salutation, respond with the same or better salutation...
This shows the flaw in my character, not liking to be criticised ) -
Hey mate bro buddy ) Ahmed
I have no problems with any situation, so far as it is a fact, and is pleasing to Allah...
By the way is your health better?
Salam WR WB (follow Al Quran ) - If someone gives you a salutation, respond with the same or better salutation...
This shows the flaw in my character, not liking to be criticised )Salam Alaikum bro
my health nowdyas is a bit down, I hope to recover soon inshaalllah, but yes Muslims shuold ry and do hajj to both locations as far as the history about the prophet is concerned
cheers
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Hey mate bro buddy ) Ahmed
I have no problems with any situation, so far as it is a fact, and is pleasing to Allah...
By the way is your health better?
Salam WR WB (follow Al Quran ) - If someone gives you a salutation, respond with the same or better salutation...
This shows the flaw in my character, not liking to be criticised )Salam Alaikum bro
my health nowdyas is a bit down, I hope to recover soon inshaalllah, but yes Muslims shuold ry and do hajj to both locations as far as the history about the prophet is concerned
cheers
To stone devils? To bow to the stone? Spinning around? What do you mean to do hajj? You said Muslims should do hajj. Where did you get this? Isn't mankind supposed to do hajj? Can we do hajj on-line?
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Peace warner
So from your analysis what you are concluding is that- Jerusalem is the place where pilgrimage and offerings are to be done.
- The focal point for prayer is Mecca...
Very interesting... I read your post, it seems cohesive.
Layth, any comment?
Salam
Hey mate
I would like to remind you that we as muslims should try to do hajj to Jerusalem as the prophet told us, i.e. for Jerusalem of being a place to do Hajj does not contradict anything, I can show the hadith of the prophet regarding this, the bottom line is this, Al Masjid Al Haram was built in uncultivated valley, not a cultivated hill
Salam
Peace be upon you Noble and Ahmed
Exactly, my point.
But let me add a bit more to that, if sacred mosque is the Masjidul Haram in Mecca it is naturally an important place for Muslims to visit/pilgrimage . But then pilgimage man owes to Allah is to the sanctuary near the bakka valley. Muslims must respect the sanctity of the sacred mosque. But I do not think we have to submit to traditions and narrations by conducting rituals there because there is nothing in the Quraan about it.
Something which can be important for this discussion is the concept of Holy Land and Promised Land. Jews , Christians and Muslims have different definitions and geographical demarcation for this piece of land. If we can come to some common grounds, mainly Holy Land covers Palestine/Israel and some area around it and maybe from the Mediterranean.
( I am weak in Geography) Promised Land, I think, according to OT is the land promised to the descendants of Abraham (or rather the righteous among them) by God so that can include Muslims , Jews and Christians. Holy Land should not be confused with Jerusalem (City of Peace) which is considered the holiest city in the area, mainly by Jews.It is interesting to note Jerusalem is known to Arabs as Al-Quds meaning The Holiness/The Holy.
Ahmed , What is the Hadith on Hajj to Jerusalem.
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Ahmed , What is the Hadith on Hajj to Jerusalem.
I think Ahmed means this one ?Do not set out on a journey except to three Mosques Al-Masjid Al-Haram, the Mosque of God?s Apostle and the Mosque of Al-Aqsa ? although there is no specification of "journey" being "Hajj" ; as for most of the hadiths, nobody can be sure if the prophet PBUH ever said it.
I remember that Gadhafi, a little bit in conflict with Saudis, once invited "his" citizens to "hajj" to Jerusalem and some lybians did!!! rotfl I don't remember the year it occurred...
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Peace All,
Full respect to all.
Someone suggested to me that
258 And We said "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish. And enter the passageway by crouching, and say "Our load is removed," so that your errors will be forgiven, and We will increase for the good doers."
Seeing the context, 247 and other posts, "this" town was Jerusalem and if you don't look at the quotes (are there quotes in the Arabic? I know little.) then "this" would surely be the same place as it was being revealed to Muhammad at the time.
And also
2126 And Abraham said "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day." He said "As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire, what a miserable destiny!"
2127 And as Abraham raised the foundations from the Sanctuary with Ishmael "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."Reading the context, I think that both "this" in 258 and 2126 would be referring to the same town right? What you think?
May God Guide.
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Peace warner,
Thanks for showing the arabic difference of two verses.
Now as for 258 alone, are there quotes in the Arabic? If no, then, "this" would surely be the same place as it was being revealed to Muhammad at the time. (it is not enter "that" town).
What you think?
May God Guide
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Salaam warner,
The question was that
Someone suggested to me that
258 And We said "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish. And enter the passageway by crouching, and say "Our load is removed," so that your errors will be forgiven, and We will increase for the good doers."
Seeing the context, 247 and other posts, "this" town was Jerusalem and if you don't look at the quotes (are there quotes in the Arabic? I know little.) then "this" would surely be the same place as it was being revealed to Muhammad at the time. (it is not "enter "that" town". So Muhammad was at Jerusalem, and it goes well with Layth's "Where was Muhammad" article. (at http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm)
So I ask what do you think of this possibility? Is it also relevant evidence to show that the kaaba is at Jerusalem?
May God Guide