Those who follow the best....
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Peace,
I was waiting for something to say this. Give me one verse that is 'outdated' and i will show you how it works...
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Ok arnie,the 100 lashes for playing the field,explain that one,and what did it mean at the time of the prophet???
ps; i didnt know you had become a scholarly priest!!! You could have an 'ask arnie' column in the riyadh times!!! -
46-11and 4176 phoenix.
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Peace,
For understanding of the punishment for adultery we must look at the combination of 3918, 415-16&56 2220, 4120-21, 3923, and 242 and Tasreef. I use QXP here as i also posted this on their forum.
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, flog each one of them with a hundred stripes. And let not compassion sway you in their case from carrying out Allah?s Law, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness the penalty.
2220 Causing all their inner arsenal(BELLY) and their exterior proclamations(SKIN) to melt away to naught.
4120 Till, when they reach it, their hearing and their sight and their skins will bear witness against them, about all they had been doing. 4121 And they will ask their skins, "Why did you testify against us?" They will say, "Allah has given us the power to speak as He has given speech to all things. For, He created you for the first time and unto Him you are brought back. (1713, 7514)
3923 Allah has now revealed the best HADITH, a Book fully consistent within itself. It marks out both ways (to success and failure) repeating its Messages in diverse forms. Herewith shiver
the skins of those who have some idea of the Glory of their Lord, and then, their skins and their hearts soften at Allah's Reminder. This is the Guidance of Allah, and with it He guides him who seeks guidance. Whereas he who follows a path that Allah has declared to be wrong, goes astray and he cannot find a guide.456 Those who are rejecting Our Revelations and opposing the establishment of the Divine System, will soon burn in the agony of defeat. If they come with renewed preparation they will taste further chastisement. Allah is Almighty, Wise.
The most important understandings of SKIN is in 456 and 2220. SKIN stands for that which covers the NAFS, and is thus That which touches the Reality. In 2220 it is translated as PROCLAMATIONS as this is what reaches out to the Reality from the NAFS and also covers it. In 456 it is translated as CHASTISMENT as in constant defeat for following their own desires. Where their SKINS=how they experience Reality is replaced after every turn of misery because of following their own whims.
So in 4120-21 SKIN stands for that which had touched the Reality, so this refers to their DEEDS as well as how they have spend their PROPERTIES. As PROPERTIES is that which has touched and influenced Reality/SURROUNDINGS. In 3923, SKIN here resembles the real SKIN, but also again their PROPERTIES, as reverence for Allah immediately effects the way they spend on their surroundings, as in every dime is spend on the Deen.
When looking at all this and 3918 where we are obliged to follow the best intepretation, we are gonna look at 242. First
415 Protection of honor and chastity for men and women, both, is the cornerstone of a virtuous society (1732, 424). If any woman or a group of women spread sexual immorality or lewdness in the society, it is required that the appropriate court takes four honorable and reliable witnesses. If their testimony corroborates with other evidence (1226), confine them to their houses, since immorality is as contagious as good conduct. This confinement would be for an indefinite period, unless such women seek the Way of Allah, such as repentance and amendment, or the singles among them get honorably married.
416 If a couple spreads such immorality or lewdness in the society, both of them shall be punished by the appropriate court of law. If they repent and amend, leave them alone. Allah is the Acceptor of repentance, Merciful.
As you can see, a woman that is spreading lewdness and sexual immorality, as in having multiple partners and so on, the woman is bound to her house indefinitely. So more then one partner with adultery=indefinite housearrest.
But when a couple is commiting adultery, it is not with multiple partners and thus not spreading, it is logical the punishment would be less then for having sex with multiple partners as in 415. So this is important for understanding 242.
LASHES stand for IMPACTS. SKIN stands for THAT WHICH REACHES OUT INTO THE SURROUNDINGS/REALITY.
And 100 LASHES then would stand for 100 DAYS, as they must be there must IMPACTS ON THAT WHICH CAN TOUCH THE SURROUNDINGS/REALITY. And what are a 100 impacts on that which touches the surroundings? Well, 415 makes it clear it refers to imprisonment. So 242 refers to 100 DAYS OF JAIL/HOUSEARREST. As these are a clear 100 lashes/impacts on that which touches the surroundings/skin.
So again
SKIN=That which touches the surroundings/reality
LASHES=impacts
415 gives indefinite Housearrest for lewdness, so the punishment for adultery, which is illegal sex between 2 persons, must be less then for lewdness, plus the punishment is clearly connected with Housearrest/Imprisonment.
So LASHES=IMPACTS=DAYS and SKIN=THAT WHICH TOUCHES THE SURROUNDINGS=FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT.So you have an 100 day impact on their touching the surroundings and thus is a 100 day Housearrest/Imprisonment.
So the verse would look like this
242 The adulteress and the adulterer, flog them with a 100 LASHES=IMPACTS=DAYS on their SKIN=THAT WHICH TOUCHES THE SURROUNDINGS=HOUSEARREST/IMPRISONMENT. And let not compassion sway you in their case from carrying out Allah?s Law, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness the penalty. .
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Peace,
Phoenix, throughout Gender-studies(position of female in western society), it remains clear that the woman herself chooses to be a housemother in 80% of all families. So it is mostly the male that works and trades in families, so it is logical then that the larger part goes to the business-person, which is the man. Even Western society shows that women themselves choose the role of housemother, and it is not pushed upon them. So then it is logical the money goes the ones who would invest it and is also in 95% of the cases the bread-winner.
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peace arnold,
But why is that a fixed law? what about special circumstances? what about the 5% of women who don't have a male person to depend on. What about all those single mothers?
I don't know what exactly the quran means in those verses, but inheritance is one of those things I don't look up in it. -
Peace,
We can only understand that when a State is ruled by the Laws of the Quran, then we can see if it has the positive impact on the society.
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Excellent point phoenix! bravo
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Peace,
For woman who don't have a man to depend on, there is Zakaat=the Islamic Economics that will provide for them. So from every corner they are protected. These laws of inheritence must only be followed in an Islamic state which has a stabil Zakaat system. And experience say the opposite of what you think is common sense phoenix. Gender studies show 95% will not be the provider of families, and chooses this by their own will. You cannot pick out one law and say it is flawed. Yoy have to take the whole package to understand it's impact.
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Seriously has any islamic system been implemented in the last 1400 years,and hasnt society changed vastly since then? Its hard to turn back the clock on certain advancements...What if folks implement this system and it proves to be wrong and unworkable?
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Peace,
Then the Quran has failed and we must move on. But how do you know it will fail? You can only know when it rules a state, and in the first 200 years you had a Islamic State, which conquered more land then the Romans did, and they did it in less time, plus they were progressive states from which Europe learned from. Democracy in Europe came from Muslim-Spain who brought back the Greek-Arab knowledge and reason back to Christian-Europe who had totally lost that knowledge.
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Peace
Keep up the good work Phoenix. While you are at it ask why men have to pay the Dower to get married and not the other way around or after divorce men have to provide maintenance
to women and not the other way around. Thank you for raising the concern for women but
how come you did not SEE these injustice to men as well. -
Why was danish post moved to the trash? I too think this is pretty shady. I can see how its the best possible interpretation, but i fail to see how at applies to the "clear speak" criterion. Arnolds suggestion is good, but its not obvious.
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peace warner,
Peace
Keep up the good work Phoenix. While you are at it ask why men have to pay the Dower to get married and not the other way around or after divorce men have to provide maintenance
to women and not the other way around. Thank you for raising the concern for women but
how come you did not SEE these injustice to men as well.Thank you?
My point was not that we should give women more power than men. I was talking specifically about inheritance laws where it states that the male gets twice as much as the female. I wanted to ask Arnold how this would be fair if women didn't have husbands who earned the bread, or were in a desperate need of money.
But the answers he gave (thank you, Arnold) have satisfied me. I believe what he says is true (until a new, better understanding shows it's beautiful face).
peace -
Peace,
No problem Phoenix, glad it made sense. And yes, Magi, he shouldn't be censored, i didn't care what he said. As for that it is not obvious has to do that the interpretation must evolve with the times. I don't know yet if it fits that perfect, but the Cross-comparison does allow it. I believe 100 days imprisonment will do more for a society then a 100 lashes with a whip...
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Peace,
No problem Phoenix, glad it made sense. And yes, Magi, he shouldn't be censored, i didn't care what he said. As for that it is not obvious has to do that the interpretation must evolve with the times. I don't know yet if it fits that perfect, but the Cross-comparison does allow it. I believe 100 days imprisonment will do more for a society then a 100 lashes with a whip...
peace yeah obviously i agree fully to your conslutio nhere, that 100 lashes from a whip makes little sense. BUt prison provably does not doo anything either, but breed even harder criminals. Im not fully convinced about this method, but not closed either. I will give it the benefit of doubt for now.
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Why was danish post moved to the trash?
And yes, Magi, he shouldn't be censored, i didn't care what he said.
Not a problem folks. Perhaps the mod didn't like my "fancy" innovative reply. I could have responded to Arnold's entire lengthy thread piecemeal but much of it has already been discussed on the 'divinity' section and it becomes a waste of time to repeat and refute the inconsistencies, contradictions and ancient "laws" over and over again, and when newer understandings are promulgated by twists and turns, desperately trying hard to make sense out of the Quran in order to work-it-up for all times.
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phoenix 1 wrote.
My point was not that we should give women more power than men. I was talking specifically about inheritance laws where it states that the male gets twice as much as the female. I wanted to ask Arnold how this would be fair if women didn't have husbands who earned the bread, or were in a desperate need of money.
i dont know how you guys have missed this,,,,
2-180 It is decreed that when death approaches, you shall write a will for the benefit of the parents and relatives, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous. for inheritance ,,, God first asks off you to leave a will ,, and that will actually take care of above mentioned discrepancies, but if one dies without leaving a will ,then God is providing his will as a standby measure. which would take care of a majority of situations in a just manner
yasin,
your explanation regarding confinement in the house for habitual adulterous and 100 days of confinement for the fornicating couple is not very convincing ,,,,,,couldnt god use the same languge of confinement (100 lashes) clearly (like in house arrest case)?peace
siki