I'm still finding myself
-
Peace be with you all..!
I've been scanning and reading this huge website and forum posts for a couple of months now, but this is my first post. I'm born and raised in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia as a Sunni, which is what the majority of the population are (Shafie school of thought, to be precise). But since the beginning of the year I've been studying in Melbourne, Australia, and probably going to be here for at least the next 2 years.
This website has been a revelation to me (no pun intended). Even though I grew up in a good, healthy environment, with a good family, good education, and good religious (or should I say, spiritual) upbringing, I've always, always had this feeling in me that there was a greater cause for the people. That religion is not supposed to be so rigid, and constantly trying to grab you by the throat by saying this is forbidden, that is forbidden, and if you still do it and/or question it, you'll go to hell. And anyone's who's not Muslim will go to hell as well. But I thought that this was very contradictory, since our daily habitual saying is 'In the name of God most Gracious/Almighty, most Merciful'. MOST merciful. Any existence doesn't GET any more merciful and forgiving as God is.
So eventually I developed these thoughts but didn't dare to talk to anyone about it. I read the Malay translation of the Quran which the words and footnotes I realize now, were a watered down, extremely cautious and a conservative version of the Scripture. Throughout religious studies in school, we were told by the teachers things like musical instruments with strings (except of Arabic origin, I suppose), were haram, and women who don't cover their hair will be suspended by it in hell (my mum and sisters don't, so this was horrific for me), and there's a saying of men who don't clear their throats after urinating, will be tortured in the grave. I kid you not. And one day my friend told me that killing a lizard is considered good, because once, that was what our Messenger did. All these ridiculous things did to me was that it created a further and further gap between me and my faith. But I knew there was something else to it. This is not what religion is supposed to be like.
When I got to Melbourne, I found the book 'The Trouble with Islam' by Irshad Manji. You can't find these 'controversial' texts in Malaysia. It was extremely shocking for me, since it goes so far as to question the content of the Quran itself. Although I couldn't and wouldn't trust it word by word, what the book did, was that it ultimately opened my mind. This was a start of a spiritual journey for me. At least I knew then that there were Muslims out there, good Muslims, who are critical and use their intelligence to find and understand our faith. Irshad Manji upheld the idea of Ijtihad, independent thought, that the interpretation of the Scripture is up to the individual. This I found to be very intriguing.
If I thought Ms. Manji's ideas were radical, man was I in for a ride. I came upon free-minds.org from an article in wikipedia on Liberal Islam. Sure, the people here don't question the Quran, but their ideas shook my beliefs to the roots. How alcohol is not exactly haram but only should be avoided, how there is no specific requirement for five daily prayers, how the shahadah should be about God alone...mostly how they explicitly reject all hadith. If not for the book i read, it would've felt so wrong inside to go on and read free-minds.org's arguments about hadith. But armed with an open mind, I explored the many many articles and posts, cross-referenced with my Yusufali translation, and thought 'heck..these people actually make logic sense!'
I wouldn't call myself a Quran-alone Muslim as yet. You have to understand that I'm a product of 22 years of conditioning as to what the majority of Muslims want me to be, and it's not easy for me to just leave that idea in an instant. I'm going through a process, a journey, as I mentioned earlier. I'm still reading the English Quran for myself, more determined than ever before, hoping to finish by the end of Ramadhan, God willing. I'll make up my mind then.
So hello again to everyone, from time to time I'm sure I will need some support, and I wish I can find that here. Anyone in Melbourne by the way?
Peace!
-
peace be upon you alamak
welcomeSure, the people here don't question the Quran
oh yes they do.
And they should.
questions lead to answers. We want answers, don't we? or do we want to live in our happy place? the happy place is nice, I'm tempted to go there sometimes, but it's not real. It's just a hole under the ground to put our heads in. We gotta keep our heads out of the ground. sometimes, the head gets too heavy. so we need to kick out some of the extra baggage. -
Peace phoenix1!
Didn't expect such a quick reply, thanks! But what I meant was that Irshad Manji questioned the authenticity of the Quran. She referenced events like how a lot of alternative versions were burnt during the early khalifahs' reign, asking if the Quran was in fact unchanged, then how do we know for sure that the one surviving version is the most accurate when during the first hundred years after the Messenger's death, there were hundreds of different versions. She also claims that there are many contradictory verses in the Scripture. The whole tone of the book was that yes, she is a Muslim, and she does believe in the Quran, but the true Quran, not the Book that we find today. Today's Book should be questioned.
-
Peace Alamak,
Glad to have you here on this forum sister, I think that your journey will be rewarding for you, God willing. I consider myself a firm believer in God and Quran, I dont question the Quran as Phenix may say to but I do question how we interpret it, once I agree on what it means to me I stick by it as firmly as I can. I truly believe it to be Gods word and guidance for all mankind. When I first converted to Islam I converted as a Quran alone Muslim, or whatever we call it. I believe that the same spirit of truth that led me to the Quran and Islam has also led me to stay away from the hadeeth. I do Believe that Mohammad was the last prophet and messenger of God but I just dont believe all those silly so called sayings are even from him, theres just way to much room for doubt and posibility for them to be made up, corrupted, and intentional lies to mislead Muslims. God and the Quran is all the guidance you need to be succesful in this life and the next.
So I hope your journey and quest for the truth will soon be discovered. There are a lot of very good and intelligent people on this forum that will help you as they have helped me when I needed it.
Kurt
-
Salaam alamak,
Peace be with you all..!
I kid you not. And one day my friend told me that killing a lizard is considered good, because once, that was what our Messenger did.
And the reason was because the lizard blew the fire on Abrahm ;D
http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/055.sbt.html#004.055.579
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 579Narrated Um Sharik
Allah's Apostle ordered that the salamander should be killed and said, "It (i.e. the salamander) blew (the fire) on Abraham."
Well brother ... welcome
You have to understand that I'm a product of 22 years of conditioning as to what the majority of Muslims want me to be, and it's not easy for me to just leave that idea in an instant. I'm going through a process, a journey, as I mentioned earlier. I'm still reading the English Quran for myself, more determined than ever before, hoping to finish by the end of Ramadhan, God willing. I'll make up my mind then.
This is a website to ease comparing translations of quran in English
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/
-
Selam to all
Welcome bro alamak.
Don't expect too much coz you are sure to hit a brickwall sometime as you will see different interpretaion and you will find yourself in a very akward position confused scratching your head. All I can say is try to follow the best of all the views that you hear as we are told in 3918Peace
FJ -
Salaam alamak
Welcome to the forumI noticed that you mentioned Irshad's book in more than a message and discretely compared it to this forum!! Sorry, but I find this an insult to the forum. Irshad's is nothing but ranting, no research, not even the name of a chapter or a verse when she quoted the qur'aan. I never found what she claimed to be from the qur'aan in any verse. She could hardly differentiate between a hadith, a myth and a verse. Not to mention the unfounded despise she showed to muslims, islam or arabs, in contrast to the silly appeasement to the israelis.
You will find here many intelligent, well researched opinions and ideas, all founded and documented. Harsh words or judgements, albeit could be found from time to time, are very much frowened upon. You can speak your mind freely, provided that you are up to what you claim and can defend it, or give in graciously. You will also find a warm, kind and helpful environment to learn. Now up to you to make the best of this and to thank God for leading you to here ...via Irshad's!! -
The whole tone of the book was that yes, she is a Muslim, and she does believe in the Quran, but the true Quran, not the Book that we find today. Today's Book should be questioned.
peace
But what if the "true" quran doesn't exist? what if we're trying to find wisdom where there isn't any? that question too is important. We can't assume anything. -
Alamak! Opocot! Aiyoyo! Haiya! ;D
welcome alamak I'm from Malaysia too, used to live in Kuala Lumpur, now in Selangor. From what i've read from the quran so far, i see believers are the ones who are open to strange and some times, contradictory ideas which may hurt their ego. And then they analyse and seek for the truth. And they follow what is best of understanding. Although it is difficult at first, but truth shall always prevail. While on the other hand, unbelievers either reject what they do not have knowledge about it, or deliberately reject the signs and truth that have been made known to them...
peace
But what if the "true" quran doesn't exist? what if we're trying to find wisdom where there isn't any? that question too is important. We can't assume anything.In God shall the believers trust. I agree that we cannot assume anything without question it. And your question "But what if the "true" quran doesn't exist?" reminds me how some philophers question "what is reality?", "how do we know that cliff is really real?"
But we should also remember that the human mind and knowledge is limited to some point. Should we walk toward the cliff and try to step on air, and when we fell, we ask "am i really falling?", "is the pain i perceive is but pain that i only perceive and there is no pressure from the material world?".. sceptism should have limits. Are we not to trust our senses?
The way the quran is written, i doubt it is from someone other than God and His messengers.
peace
-
Peace Samia,
I noticed that you mentioned Irshad's book in more than a message and discretely compared it to this forum!! Sorry, but I find this an insult to the forum.......make the best of this and to thank God for leading you to here ...via Irshad's!!
Yes, I can see where you're coming from. As I said, I too was shocked by the book and I couldn't and wouldn't trust everything written in it. In fact, sometimes I even felt insulted by its contents. But all it did was make me realize that there are efforts out there, by Muslims, to be critical about our faith. Of course she did take it to another level altogether, for better or worse, but it did take me out of my shell and opened my eyes to the outside world. I'm sorry me mentioning her offended you, I guess I'll try to be careful next time.. ;D Thanks for the welcome, anyway.
Bubba, amacaam..
But we should also remember that the human mind and knowledge is limited to some point. Should we walk toward the cliff and try to step on air, and when we fell, we ask "am i really falling?", "is the pain i perceive is but pain that i only perceive and there is no pressure from the material world?".. sceptism should have limits. Are we not to trust our senses?
The way the quran is written, i doubt it is from someone other than God and His messengers.
Yea there is certainly no way to 100% positively make sure of its word-by-word authenticity, unless we travel back in time or something. Just like we can't make sure of the authenticity of the Prophet's sayings. But we can only do our personal very best to use our own intelligence, open mind, and basically, have faith. Agree with you, we humans can only do so much. Just because we can think and have the power to reason doesn't mean that we should be arrogant. And besides, there is that 'word count miracle' found in the Quran. That's pretty kewl. There's no way any human can construct anything like that at that time, while maintaining the basic literal meaning of the complete text.
-
Asalaamu Alaykom
I think alamak in arabic means teaching you.. right? My knowledge of arabic is limited but was wondering also if that was what your username indicated. Btw welcome and May your journey be guided by Allah.
-
Waalaikumsalam everyone...
Im also from malaysia. welcome to the forum. when you come back look for me around..
Thanks for the welcome, are you from KL too?
welcome aboard.
I'm your neighbour in Indonesia.
You picked a funny word for a username. At least it is so in my languageYea, it's supposed to be that same word ;D
I think alamak in arabic means teaching you.. right? My knowledge of arabic is limited but was wondering also if that was what your username indicated. Btw welcome and May your journey be guided by Allah.
Oh is that so? I don't speak arabic at all. It's actually a colloquial Malay word, literally means oh mother!, but used in context of holy crap! haha.. I guess you can say that's what I said when I first discovered a whole different side of my faith
-
In God shall the believers trust. I agree that we cannot assume anything without question it. And your question "But what if the "true" quran doesn't exist?" reminds me how some philophers question "what is reality?", "how do we know that cliff is really real?"
But we should also remember that the human mind and knowledge is limited to some point. Should we walk toward the cliff and try to step on air, and when we fell, we ask "am i really falling?", "is the pain i perceive is but pain that i only perceive and there is no pressure from the material world?".. sceptism should have limits. Are we not to trust our senses?
Peace Bubba,
I trust God. I just don't trust this book people claim is from God. My question is, is it God's word?
There is a difference between trying to verify the knowledge in a book, and jumping off a cliff to see if it's real.
So, "what is reality?" has an answer. Reality is what is real. It is what we have verified to be true.
Am I really falling?
well, if i'm moving downward, and everything else is moving upward, and I don't have control over my position, then I must be falling.
"is the pain I perceive is but pain that I only perceive and there is no pressure from the material world?"
umm...pain is physical. Pain is the response to something harmful. And it can be transcended. There are people who don't feel pain. Emotional pain? that can be transcended as well.
So, is the human mind limited?? yes. It's limited to the knowledge that it has. You cannot imagine something you havn't seen. That's why our goal is to aquire as much knowledge as we can so that we KNOW instead of BELIEVE.If God created us, and put us in a world we don't understand and gave us a book we don't understand, then I don't trust God.
-
Peace phoenix1
Is Quran truly from God? Is the Quran one of many Signs of God existence?
Firstly, the quran itself challeged 223 And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.
And it claimed 1037 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.
If not a single human being or alien(if there is one) which can fulfill the challege, then it is save to say, it is from God, yes? Before one can try to produce a sura or the whole Quran, one have to ask what is the characteristics of Quran. At least for now which i know, The quran said 3531 That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it for Allah is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - well acquainted and Fully Observant. . What was revealed before it? Is it only the previous scriptures? Or more than just writings?
289 And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
447 O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out.
1037 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds. From what is written in this verse, it also explains itself. 752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
111 A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things)Or another way to verify the Quran (instead of producing a sura/quran) is from God is to see if the quran can truly confirm or explain the worlds we experienc-ed/ing and more boldly said, confirm and explain itself. Which I think is what members of free-minds forum is currently doing.
May God increase us in knowledge.
...
2121 Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied They are the ones that believe therein Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own.???? how should it be studied?
-
I trust God. I just don't trust this book people claim is from God. My question is, is it God's word?
.....
So, is the human mind limited?? yes. It's limited to the knowledge that it has. You cannot imagine something you havn't seen. That's why our goal is to aquire as much knowledge as we can so that we KNOW instead of BELIEVE.If God created us, and put us in a world we don't understand and gave us a book we don't understand, then I don't trust God.
Interesting, but we'll be walking a thin line, at least according to the Quran. If we continue to dispute if this is the word of God, by the time we get our answer it'll be too late. Isn't it believe (have faith) first, and acquire knowledge (research, analyze) afterwards? But at the same time, the Book also mentioned that blind faith (as how I mentioned to have faith first) is frowned upon, that we humans are supposed to use our intelligence and abilities to understand the existence of a higher authority... ???