Honour killings and the Quran
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Where is the offensive statement??? You need to have one if you want people to discuss.
Quite true indeed. Maybe I should start a flamefest, that would seal the deal for massive replies Sad, these state of affairs P
I think they need to get rid of the pardoning. If you kill, you stay off the streets no matter what your psycho family thinks.
But honor killing is a good method of population control. The gov't should encourage it.But obviously no ones going to take that suggestion seriously. So this is what they can do to stop it
get rid of the pardoning, as I said.
Promote secularism. Get rid of all the religious leaders in power. Convert the madrasas into gay bars (just kidding).
and improve education.
As Mr. Jinnah said, "theocracy is the worst form of despotism." Pakistan has been pretty much been a theocracy all this time.
The only way to get rid of this stuff for the long term is to reduce the influence of religion on people's lives.I don't think that'll work in western countries, though.
I agree with you in some ways. The institutionalised religiousity that is currently prevalent is nothing if not destructive, for the sole reason, that it's corrupted to a great degree. Pakistan was a whole lot different before Zia came on the scene, because that's when it really erupted. Check out the advert for PIA in the 60's or 70's. Man, that woman is awesome and whoever made that poster should be lauded with um, garlands and such.
http//img223.imageshack.us/img223/5997/606629a476c65fe1miv9.jpg
The thing is, we all accept that the situation is quite messed up and yes, we should be looking for ways to make it better and all. My question was, is the quran lacking in foresight for having a clause in it that would allow these psychopaths to roam free? Or is it something else, in which certain things come to mind
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Is it that these killings were always going to be a minority because of a family's natural inclination to keep together? If so, rome and medieval england amongst other places had a history of chopping down people in their own families just so they could get ahead. This has been going on for a long time now, and even now you hear of sons poisoning their father for the inheritance (in PIA there was this case quite ironically), so why should they get away after having done it, by having their own family pardon the murderer?
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Is it that these killings are supposed to be dealt with in one's own family so that they realise that bearing false witness or trying to protect their own family members at the expense of the truth and justice is awfully wrong? If so, it might be a test for families but is not a deterrent per se but then again, being an effective deterrent is not really the point of said test. An effective deterrent would be only oneself not doing things that are wrong because it just is, inclusive of killing someone not in the course of justice.
And so on...thoughts?
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Peace Sis S-carrot )
My understanding in the matter of Qasas
- It deals with minimizing blood feuds and vendettas of old.
- That a victim's close ones have a right on the crime perpetrator
- Gives an opportunity for the victims' perpetrator to exercise forgiveness which is a very high faith status, and also to seek
compensation at the same time if wished for or needed. - Demonstrates the Mercy of the Creator by giving an opportunity to the crime perpetrator to seek forgiveness from his/her victims'
close ones, and if forgiveness granted, might lead to an increase and/or a reversal to faith from the victim perpetrator. - Still gives an opportunity to the victims to exercise their rights for retribution, which is thereby limited solely to the prepetrator/s,
and so limit the damage that could be inflicted if there were a feud instead.
Within our current system of laws the opportunity of forgiveness is absent...
Salam
Noble -
Peace noble,
Good to see you posting and thanks for the rundown/summary. Those are pretty good points but can you elaborate on
Within our current system of laws the opportunity of forgiveness is absent...
Please clarify? Is that because of lack of equivalence and the insistence on perhaps having state laws of prosecution regardless of what the parties involved think? In which case (let me know if I'm off track but this is the question which I'm unclear about), there would be parties that conspire to kill off members of their family for loot and bounty and get away because their families pardon them. I had a friend I knew from school for around 10 years and found out that she was brutally murdered along with her mother in law by her own cousin and his gang. It was a robbery and she was about to go meet her husband in Dubai and had money stashed in her house which the cousin knew about and they were murdered to protect his identity as he got them to open the door. Now, in this case, the cousin has to ask forgiveness from his own uncle/aunt or something but that wasn't done and the entire group was going to be executed I think. So, if they pardon him, he should get away with murder? That is what is confusing. Well, unless there is a reason for letting such people off the hook and thus the laws were created...I don't know.
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Peace bro,
Yes, you have a point about laws being open to abuse. Thank you for the honesty and I would like to ask if anyone who has studied this in detail can help me out here before I pick it up myself.
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I appreciate your wisdom in bringing out this technical point,,, but what are you doing there? in kuwait, you should be here .... leading some NGO on womens rights .. musharf would listen to you (cause he luvs beautiful women ) , anyway such an ammendment is probably there on honor killing in the latest bill, which is still stuck up because of the mullahs,
peace sikandar -
Peace Sikandar,
A compliment! Musharraf's taste in women is quite questionable ;D but thank you all the same though
There are many amendments which I think should get passed and some which I don't think should have gotten passed at all since the past couple decades y'know. I am so sick and tired of these mullahs having a say, I'm sure there must be a solution to this somehow...and don't worry brother, I will come back soon when things get settled )
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Thanks for the clarification ;D
Are you in Pakistan btw? Wait, I just re-read it and apparently you are. Np.
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I agree with you in some ways. The institutionalised religiousity that is currently prevalent is nothing if not destructive, for the sole reason, that it's corrupted to a great degree. Pakistan was a whole lot different before Zia came on the scene, because that's when it really erupted. Check out the advert for PIA in the 60's or 70's. Man, that woman is awesome and whoever made that poster should be lauded with um, garlands and such.
http//img223.imageshack.us/img223/5997/606629a476c65fe1miv9.jpg
That is a fantastic advert... it's better than the PIA advert I used to walk past in the morning. Woman with cheesy smile wearing an even cheesier shalwaar kameez that is green of course....
You know which one is more recent without even looking at it.
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You know which one is more recent without even looking at it.
Don't you just! Oh for the good old days D That green uniform is quite odd. Would you believe it, they had some french designer design the ones back in the day too.
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You know which one is more recent without even looking at it.
Don't you just! Oh for the good old days That green uniform is quite odd. Would you believe it, they had some french designer design the ones back in the day too.
Salaam sis
I could believe that... though I quite like the Emirates one. They sorta like East meets West.
Oh I forgot to mention along with woman in green there was a man in green too.... lol would you believe he had a moustache!!!! ;D
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Peace Nafisa,
I despise moustaches! ;D Though I find that a bit strange. The men's uniform is not green and hasn't been green as far as I can recall, maybe it was sometime and I missed it. The emirates one is okay but those skirts are a bit problematic. The reason being, and this happened the last time I flew to Dubai via emirates, the air hostess was sitting in one of those seats right in the start of the aisles during the take-off and the skirt tends to hike up a lot when they do sit (love dave matthews). So there was this guy who came with us from Kuwait with his wife in full gear (hijab, the jilbab and what not) who was constantly, um, staring there. His wife looked pretty pissed from what I could gather. Then he started making small talk with her and they kinda started flirting but that's neither here nor there. I can't imagine those skirts on PIA flights, especially the ones from Peshawar or Lahore.
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I agree with you in some ways. The institutionalised religiousity that is currently prevalent is nothing if not destructive, for the sole reason, that it's corrupted to a great degree. Pakistan was a whole lot different before Zia came on the scene, because that's when it really erupted. Check out the advert for PIA in the 60's or 70's. Man, that woman is awesome and whoever made that poster should be lauded with um, garlands and such.
The poster is awesome.
You know, I've noticed a trend. Every nation is becoming more and more religious. Maybe the end of the world is near!?Within our current system of laws the opportunity of forgiveness is absent...
Noble, how do we know if someone really is sorry for their crime? there really isn't any way to do that. The best way, IMO, is to give them up to the police, and if the family decides to "forgive," then the police can let the killer out of prison but keep him under probation.
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As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Respectfully.Honour killings?
Isn't bigger honour surviving this life, this test and making it into Paradise?
I mean, anyone can kill themselves but can you make it through this life following the Quran? That is a challenge my friends.May The God helps us all.
As salamu alaykum wr wb. -
Peace Nafisa,
I despise moustaches! ;D Though I find that a bit strange. The men's uniform is not green and hasn't been green as far as I can recall, maybe it was sometime and I missed it. The emirates one is okay but those skirts are a bit problematic. The reason being, and this happened the last time I flew to Dubai via emirates, the air hostess was sitting in one of those seats right in the start of the aisles during the take-off and the skirt tends to hike up a lot when they do sit (love dave matthews). So there was this guy who came with us from Kuwait with his wife in full gear (hijab, the jilbab and what not) who was constantly, um, staring there. His wife looked pretty pissed from what I could gather. Then he started making small talk with her and they kinda started flirting but that's neither here nor there. I can't imagine those skirts on PIA flights, especially the ones from Peshawar or Lahore.
Salaam
Never been on PIA or Emirates as i've never travelled to those parts but I saw the man with the woman on cardboard cut out thing in a travel agents window. All green and cheesy grins.... it weren't a good advert wouldn't make me fly with them if i could afford to choose.
I can't believe he made it that obvious!! ;D I just love the headdress that they have on Emirates. It looks so stylish.
The last time I flew was on British Airways.... there skirts were longish from what I remember and they didnt look stylish at the end of the flight just ver flustered!
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Salaam
Never been on PIA or Emirates as i've never travelled to those parts but I saw the man with the woman on cardboard cut out thing in a travel agents window. All green and cheesy grins.... it weren't a good advert wouldn't make me fly with them if i could afford to choose.
I can't believe he made it that obvious!! ;D I just love the headdress that they have on Emirates. It looks so stylish.
The last time I flew was on British Airways.... there skirts were longish from what I remember and they didnt look stylish at the end of the flight just ver flustered!
I would normally choose PIA unless they were not flying where I wanted to go basically. Those adverts don't faze me much D BA does have longer skirts than emirates and they do tend to look off later, we should have pants and do away with skirts, I would imagine them being more comfortable than skirts...or maybe have that 'eazee-iron' material.
The poster is awesome.
You know, I've noticed a trend. Every nation is becoming more and more religious. Maybe the end of the world is near!?Who knows, I want to see people colonising other planets and chinese in our new evolved language aka firefly but don't think that's gonna happen. What's the point if they're gonna decimate and then self destruct on every world they ever colonise P I don't think we're ever going to get ourselves together, may be cynical but seems to be holding true till now.
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Peace, Phoenix
Noble wrote - .../...Gives an opportunity for the victims' perpetrator to exercise forgiveness../..Within our current system of laws the opportunity of forgiveness is absent...
Phoenix1 replied Noble, how do we know if someone really is sorry for their crime? there really isn't any way to do that. The best way, IMO, is to give them up to the police, and if the family decides to "forgive," then the police can let the killer out of prison but keep him under probation.
Dealing with forgiveness, from a Kamitic perspective, since the self within us, in this case the killer, is God, he is essentially redeamable, thus we should forgive him, but after he has been apprehended, stoped, punished and rehabilitated.