BREAK IT DOWN......
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peace
thank you soo much for responding i actually was using that project root list i couldnt find the root for lidulooki i didnt know that the li and the dulooki were separate thats why i probably couldnt find the root loool i think i was thinking it was all one word so i was looking for the root of lam dal lam and i dont think i found it so i loooked for the root of all words starting with lam and still couldnt find it under the list so i thought id ask i really really appreciate you doing that for me alot
May Allah The Most Powerful Protect and guide you always inshaAllah and may Allah the Most Merciful show you mercy for your kindness inshaAllah
Amanda
Peace
ps what are some tips how to know when to devide the words like you did for li and the other word?
pss hahaha i already printed your article as well as layths but i ahvent begun to verify yours yet inshaAllah i will i feel its better to first check the verses roots to mkae sure im not mislead by a mistranslation....
Also, I am getting tired of reading peoples articles about salat i yesterday looked up all threads on salat and there seems to be a 3 or 5 discrempency but i dont see any facts that its either
so once and for all im tired of not knowing the truth and depending on other peole to trnaslate stuff for me so im gonna have to do it for myself inshaAllah
now i also want to make sure that the verse i have regarding salat is accurate
can you tell me if i am missing any ???
heres what ive compiled so far
1778
1779
1780
1781
20130
5036-40
2564
2277
11114
5249
2458
2238
23
2277
7170
1322
2241
3518
3529
4238am i missing any?
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peace
wakas i want to ask you another question that just came to mind since i printed your and layths articles about salat.
you know how some verses are supposed to be literal and some metaphorical ?
i was talking to another perosn on here and they were mentioning the wudu is both literal and metaphorical
like washing the hands (literal cleaning the hands )then cleansing the hands form impurity as a metaphorical analysis (like keep your hands pure from sin)
is there any where in the quran that says according to your knowledge that says some verses can be both literal and metaphorical at the same time?
i thought either a verse was one or the other it didnt dawn on me to make them as both, is there any justification for doing this?
what is that verse that talks about the types of verses again?
why im asking is this
perhaps if it is both in meaning
then the terms "the scripture and the wisdom" could imply
that you can know the scripture but not know the wisdom behind it like the parables
so if this is the case perhaps both you and layth are right
Allahu Ellem
but i have a tendency to go with you over layth simply becasue last year i went with his ramadan in autumn thing then it changed this year and i dont want it to be the same with his salat article you know what i mean?
got me?
amanda
peace
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peace
i was reading layths article about salat and he mentions on page 13 of 13 "salat for the beleivers is conducted regularly at three times each day (2458. 11114, 2238 and 177
well i already checked the verse 1778 and rechecked the project root list and i see that the 1778 does not validate his claim of three times a day
now i come across 2458
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo liyasta/thinkumu allatheena malakat aymanukum waallatheena lam yablughoo alhuluma minkum thalatha marratin min qabli salati alfajri waheena tadaAAoona thiyabakum mina alththaheerati wamin baAAdi salati alAAisha-i thalathu AAawratin lakum laysa AAalaykum wala AAalayhim junahun baAAdahunna tawwafoona AAalaykum baAAdukum AAala baAAdin kathalika yubayyinu Allahu lakumu al-ayati waAllahu AAaleemun hakeemun
im no expert on arabic but i looked for the words similar to salat right?
i have bolded the times i find the word or similar word salat
i only find 2? instances of this word how can he use this verse as justification of three salats i just dont see what he is seeing or how this verse justifies his claim?
O you who believe, let those who are your dependants and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times Before the dawn contact-method, and should you take off your attire from being outdoors, and after the evening contact-method. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
so i have clearly seen the two verses 2458 and 1778 that he listed as evidence for three salat is wrong but what about 11114?
11114Transliteration Waaqimi alssalata tarafayi alnnahari wazulafan mina allayli inna alhasanati yuthhibna alssayyi-ati thalika thikra lilththakireena
And thou shall hold the contact-method at two edges during the day, and the near part of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
but the literal only mentions only one "and"
And keep up the prayers to (the) ends/edges (of) the daytime (to) parts from the night from the night; that the goodnesses wipe off/eliminate the sins/crimes, that (is) a remembrance/reminder to the praising/glorifying .
is "wazulafan" supposed to be wa zulafan? its hard to find roots when its connected liek that? is the root za lam fa? all i can find on project root list is Za-Lam-Lam and Za-Lam-Miim??? those arent it
what is the root for this word?
perhaps the translation is off since all the other verse seem to indicate 2 do you have the roots for this verse also? and can wa mean more than "and" in arabic ? if the literal only mentions one i was thinking maybe the wa could mean "to" but im not expert just checking if u knew?
amanda
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peace
now im working on 2238 2238Transliteration Hafithoo AAala alssalawati waalssalati alwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena
Waw-Siin-Tay = middle, midst, among, best, best part of a thing, mediate/intercede between, most remote from the extremes, equidistant, intermediate, most conforming/equitable/just/balanced, most excellent of them in particular.
wasata vb. (1) perf. act. 1005
wasat n.m. 2143, 2238, 589, 6828
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 194, 195, 196, 306
the only thing iw ant to know is what does n.m. after the wasat mean i know the vb is verb but what is n.m. does that mean a noun?
what is the difference between a regular verb and a perfect act?
amanda
peace
ps also i had a feeling to look up one word
3 results for equidistant
View results from Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | the WebDictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
equidistant /ikwdstnt, kw-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation?adjective equally distant.
?Related forms
equidistantly, adverb
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, ? Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source e?qui?dis?tant (kw-dstnt, kw-) Pronunciation Key
adj.
Equally distant.equi?distance (-tns) n.
equi?distant?ly adv.(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source
equidistantadj the same distance apart at every point
WordNet ? 2.0, ? 2003 Princeton University
2238Transliteration Hafithoo AAala alssalawati waalssalati alwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena
does alssalawati mean plural and waalssalati mean singular? if so then....
Preserve the contact-methods, and the middle contact-method, and stand devoutly for God.
could be Preserve alssalawati , and the (waal)ssalati equidistant, and stand devoutly for God.
arent the sunrise and sunset always equal like for example
my sunrise and sunset each day are equally distant from each other day by day the sunrise is always one minute ahead i think and the sunset is always 2 minutes behind the day before doesnt that make them equally distant from each other???
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Peace be upon you
Peace Amanda
My count is there about 60 or more verses with regard to Salat.
Maybe you aware of this already , the following links will give you all the words and also all words from the same roots.
http//www.openburhan.com/ob_main_frame.html
http//www.quraninstitute.net/chapters.jsp -
peace Amanda,
There is an introduction to Project Root List (PRL) which discusses its terms and how to determine a root. Please read this.
ALL the occurrences of words are listed in PRL, see Sad-Lam-Waw for "salat".
zulafan to find its root, pronounce its consonants = Z-L-F, thus it can only be Zay-Lam-Fa, or Za-Lam-Fa. It is the first one.
I dont advise rushing to any understanding, take your time. I understand it can be made more difficult if one wishes to verify everything and doesn't know Arabic but there is no progress without struggle.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you Wakas
I like to put forward a few questions and also few opinions on your following 3 articles on Salat.
A) An understanding of salat from Al Quran (The Reading)
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htmB) Additional infromation on salat according to The Quran
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/quran_on_salat.htmC) Disproved once and for all salat = prayer The Most Powerful Argument Against the Traditional Understanding
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm1 ) In your articles you have 2 definitions/meaning for salat
To go / turn towards using Al Quraan 7531 -32
And
Oath/ bond using Al Quraan 91-12
What is the connection between these 2 meanings/definitions ?
Can you apply this meaning/s to every repetition of Salat in the Quraan. ?
According to the first meaning can only the Mumin turn towards God or if it?s the second meaning is it only possible for a Mumin to give Oath.
2 )
*to see how 'salat' can be understood as 'oath/bond', please read on.
To give this further weight, a question has to be asked can salat mean oath/bond? The answer is a resounding "yes!?
Dear Brother, you asking a question and answering with a resounding ?yes? does not give further weight to the matter in discussion. One option is to place it to the board to critically analyze the theories you have put forward.
idolater one who worships idols. (taken from www.dictionary.com)
Is The God commanding the idolaters to uphold/maintain the prayer, even though they are idolaters? Do they pray to their idols? Is The God giving them an ultimatum somehow convert to Muslims and uphold/maintain the prayer or if they don't they will get punished?
When we read Chapter 9 carefully, we can understand the Mushrikeen referred to in Chapter 91-12 are Jews and Christians who have set up partners to God and not idolaters as you suggest. Further these Mushrikeens have broken the oath and betrayed the Messenger and the believers.
Verse 99 is only one example that these verses are referring to Jews and Christians and not idolaters.
9 9
Yusuf Ali The signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price and (many) have they hindered from His way evil indeed are the deeds they have done.
It is clear majority of chapter 9 including verses 91-12 is about Jews and Christians who have set up partners to God. Incidentally, the following 2 verses in the same chapter explain how the Jews and Christians can become Mushrikeen.
930
Yusuf Ali The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them how they are deluded away from the truth!9 31
Yusuf Ali They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah there is no god but He. Praise and glory to him (far is He) from having the partners they associate (with him).Chapter 9 (possibly up to verse 40) is the message to Muhammad about clearly identified groups of mushrikeen and how to deal with them. The date is on the Great Pilgrimage; the place, the date and the time is specified. Some of these groups have broken their oaths (betrayed) and some have not. The command is to attack these identified groups who betrayed until they ?return? from their setting up of partners to the straight path and also until they establish salat which the Jews and the Christians are commanded to practice by God. Then they become your brethren in faith/religion/system (911).
This is the way those who broke the oath can get out of the punishment for their breaking of the oath or they will be fought and killed. Otherwise, there is no compulsion as we can clearly see with regard to the ones who seek asylum, the command is to make them an opportunity to hear Gods words and lead them to safety. (96)
Also there is no command to fight and subdue and compel the ones (Christians and Jews who set up partners) who did not break the oath.
Further,
The difference is highlighted between the ? disbelievers? and ?those who set up partners? in verse 9 13 and 940
9 13
Yusuf Ali Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths plotted to expel the apostle and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay it is Allah whom ye should more justly fear if ye believe!The majority of verses up to 940 are referring to Mushrikeen. The group which plotted/aimed/conspired to drive the messenger out are of the Mushrikeen /the ones who set up partners with Allah.
9 40
Yusuf Ali If ye help not (your Leader) (it is no matter) for Allah did indeed help him when the unbelievers drove him out he had no more than one companion they two were in the cave and he said to his companion "have no fear for Allah is with us" then Allah sent down his peace upon him and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not and humbled to the depths the word of the unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights for Allah is Exalted in might Wise.940 says the unbelievers drove out the messenger.
- On your articles on salat there was no single reference to bowing or prostrating during salat which is stated in the Quraan. Brother, can you please explain.
After mentioning most important issues related to Salat in your article ?Additional information on salat according to The Quran? you have come up with a disclaimer that salat is only for Mumin and not for Muslim. How do we distinguish between the 2 in real life. Do you perform/establish Salat. How about others in this forum. How does anyone decide that they are Mumin. Can you apply this theory to all verses on salat in the Quraan. When I tried to apply this theory to your articles it was not coherent.
I believe due to above issues it is difficult to see strong evidence for your 2 definitions for Salat.
My personal belief is prayer/contact method is a better definition. (Prayer does not have to be asking for help like dua, which I guess can be either supplications or invocation.)
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peace Warner,
I never had time earlier, so I have edited this post with a more complete reply.
I will quote your post, adding comments on the points you raised.
Peace be upon you Wakas
I like to put forward a few questions and also few opinions on your following 3 articles on Salat.
A) An understanding of salat from Al Quran (The Reading)
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htmB) Additional infromation on salat according to The Quran
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/quran_on_salat.htmC) Disproved once and for all salat = prayer The Most Powerful Argument Against the Traditional Understanding
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm1 ) In your articles you have 2 definitions/meaning for salat
I do not see it as two definitions, for better readability, I prefer "bond". This meaning still retains the core meaning of "go/turn towards in a close/positive manner".
To go / turn towards using Al Quraan 7531 -32
And
Oath/ bond using Al Quraan 91-12
Not exactly what I meant. The meaning can become specific in specific contexts. See above comment.
What is the connection between these 2 meanings/definitions ?
See first comment, above. Alternatively, look up "bond" in a dictionary.
Can you apply this meaning/s to every repetition of Salat in the Quraan. ?
Yes. The core meaning that is, as stated above. If you disagree, please bring forth the evidence.
According to the first meaning can only the Mumin turn towards God or if it?s the second meaning is it only possible for a Mumin to give Oath.
this implies you do not undrstand the difference between mumin/muslim, please see the referenced free-minds article in my article.
muslim has nothing to do with 'al quran'. in simple terms, its a monotheist.
mumin is one who trusts in God and His message 'al quran'.If you have evidence contrary to the above, please bring it forth.
2 )
*to see how 'salat' can be understood as 'oath/bond', please read on.
To give this further weight, a question has to be asked can salat mean oath/bond? The answer is a resounding "yes!?
Dear Brother, you asking a question and answering with a resounding ?yes? does not give further weight to the matter in discussion. One option is to place it to the board to critically analyze the theories you have put forward.
If you read directly below the above comment in my article you would have seen my explanation. Perhaps I could have worded it better.
idolater one who worships idols. (taken from www.dictionary.com)
Is The God commanding the idolaters to uphold/maintain the prayer, even though they are idolaters? Do they pray to their idols? Is The God giving them an ultimatum somehow convert to Muslims and uphold/maintain the prayer or if they don't they will get punished?
When we read Chapter 9 carefully, we can understand the Mushrikeen referred to in Chapter 91-12 are Jews and Christians who have set up partners to God and not idolaters as you suggest. Further these Mushrikeens have broken the oath and betrayed the Messenger and the believers.
Verse 99 is only one example that these verses are referring to Jews and Christians and not idolaters.
9 9
Yusuf Ali The signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price and (many) have they hindered from His way evil indeed are the deeds they have done.
It is clear majority of chapter 9 including verses 91-12 is about Jews and Christians who have set up partners to God. Incidentally, the following 2 verses in the same chapter explain how the Jews and Christians can become Mushrikeen.
930
Yusuf Ali The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them how they are deluded away from the truth!9 31
Yusuf Ali They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah there is no god but He. Praise and glory to him (far is He) from having the partners they associate (with him).You are right that mushrikeen does mean one who takes a partner. i did notice that after but i do not think it impacts on the main point of the article, which is traditionally speaking these signs discuss the polytheists upholding the prayer. if it interferes with the main point of the article, please let me know.
Chapter 9 (possibly up to verse 40) is the message to Muhammad about clearly identified groups of mushrikeen and how to deal with them. The date is on the Great Pilgrimage; the place, the date and the time is specified. Some of these groups have broken their oaths (betrayed) and some have not. The command is to attack these identified groups who betrayed until they ?return? from their setting up of partners to the straight path and also until they establish salat which the Jews and the Christians are commanded to practice by God. Then they become your brethren in faith/religion/system (911).
your point about twb meaning return is completely invalid unless you bring forth evidence to the contrary. my article went into much detail about this point.
This is the way those who broke the oath can get out of the punishment for their breaking of the oath or they will be fought and killed. Otherwise, there is no compulsion as we can clearly see with regard to the ones who seek asylum, the command is to make them an opportunity to hear Gods words and lead them to safety. (96)
Are you implying that in order to be forgiven an option is given to convert?
Also there is no command to fight and subdue and compel the ones (Christians and Jews who set up partners) who did not break the oath.
Further,
The difference is highlighted between the ? disbelievers? and ?those who set up partners? in verse 9 13 and 940
9 13
Yusuf Ali Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths plotted to expel the apostle and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay it is Allah whom ye should more justly fear if ye believe!The majority of verses up to 940 are referring to Mushrikeen. The group which plotted/aimed/conspired to drive the messenger out are of the Mushrikeen /the ones who set up partners with Allah.
9 40
Yusuf Ali If ye help not (your Leader) (it is no matter) for Allah did indeed help him when the unbelievers drove him out he had no more than one companion they two were in the cave and he said to his companion "have no fear for Allah is with us" then Allah sent down his peace upon him and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not and humbled to the depths the word of the unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights for Allah is Exalted in might Wise.940 says the unbelievers drove out the messenger.
are you implying because it uses a different word, this means its addressing another group? is the word change your only evidence?
- On your articles on salat there was no single reference to bowing or prostrating during salat which is stated in the Quraan. Brother, can you please explain.
please bring forth the specific signs which discuss CLEAR physical prostration with salat. sjd means to give recognition/acknowledgement (for evidence of this, see its classical arabic meanings and every single occurrence in 'al quran'. it is not necessarily physical.
After mentioning most important issues related to Salat in your article ?Additional information on salat according to The Quran? you have come up with a disclaimer that salat is only for Mumin and not for Muslim. How do we distinguish between the 2 in real life. Do you perform/establish Salat. How about others in this forum. How does anyone decide that they are Mumin. Can you apply this theory to all verses on salat in the Quraan. When I tried to apply this theory to your articles it was not coherent.
please refer to the comment above on muslim/mumin
I believe due to above issues it is difficult to see strong evidence for your 2 definitions for Salat.
My personal belief is prayer/contact method is a better definition. (Prayer does not have to be asking for help like dua, which I guess can be either supplications or invocation.)
are you saying you do not see a connection between "go/turn towards in a close/positive manner" and "bond" yet see a connection between "contact method" and "prayer"? also, are you saying if you apply your definition (which one?) into every occurrence it makes sense?
Wakas
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Peace Wakas
For now, I will only tackle the main points in our discussion with regard to your articles on salat, God willing.
Although you seem to distance yourself now from the definition ?Oath? for salat based on verses 91-12 this interpretation is all over you article.I quote below from your article the examples of you establishing the connection between ?uphold oath/bond? and ?establish salat?.
The phrase which follows "fa khalloo sabeelahum" = "then clear/vacate their way/path", implies that they should be allowed to go their own way/path, i.e. practice their own faith, if they "uphold/maintain the oath/bond* and bring forth the betterment". This is an insightful understanding for any multi-faith based society. In fact, this is how many Western societies work today, i.e. as long as you live by the law of the land you are allowed to practice your own faith.
*to see how 'salat' can be understood as 'oath/bond', please read on.Once the restricted months are past (like a period of amnesty), those who violated the treaty and did not repent can be fought. If any of them now repent, they are required to uphold/maintain the oath/bond and bring forth the betterment. If they do this, their way is cleared. If they disagree, they can continue to be fought until they accept the terms or ask for protection (i.e. give up but still not accept the terms). If they do this, protection is granted, and they are delivered to their safety/security out with the land/community.
As you can see so far, all options are covered, except what happens to those who repent and uphold/maintain the oath/bond and bring forth the betterment initially but eventually break the oath/bond. This is covered in 911-12. If the oaths are now broken, the leaders of this activity are fought until this activity is stopped- But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.
- And if they break their oaths after making them, and they slander your obligation/system; then you may fight the chiefs of concealment/rejection. Truly, their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then stop.
To give this further weight, a question has to be asked can salat mean oath/bond? The answer is a resounding "yes!".
This popular misconception is among many that ?uphold/establish salat? can mean ?oath? based on Chapter 95 and 911. I think even Arnold Yasin interprets this as ?Oath of allegiance? in his article on salat. (Excuse me AY, if I am wrong in that assumption and for dragging you here but you are more than welcome to join this discussion and offer your expertise).
You are right that mushrikeen does mean one who takes a partner. i did notice that after but i do not think it impacts on the main point of the article, which is traditionally speaking these signs discuss the polytheists upholding the prayer. if it interferes with the main point of the article, please let me know.
The main flaw in your article is that you misunderstood that the verses 91-12 are referring to polytheists and in that case the phrase ?uphold salat? in 95 and 911 should mean oath/bond ,other wise it will mean conversion of polytheists to Islam and since there can not be forceful conversion and naturally these polytheists could not have been compelled to do salat.
The point I am making is these verses are not about polytheists but about the Jews and/or Christians who have set up partners to God thus have become mushrikeen and also have broken the oath of allegiance and betrayed the messenger so they should be fought until they repent and establish salat/prayer/contact method as they are commanded by Allah. You know salat was enjoined upon the children of Israel.
Also we must realize that these verses are time specific and refer to war, peace treaties, betrayal and treachery.
Saad-Lam-Waw (slw). E.W. Lane's Arabic-English lexicon/dictionary gives the following possible meanings of the root
prayer, supplication, petition, oration, eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnify, bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, to remain attached, to contact or to be in contact.
In a horse race when the second horse follows the first one so closely that its head always overlaps the first horse?s body that horse is called AL-MUSSALLI (i.e. the one who follows closely or remains attached).*
Central portion of the back, portion from where the tail of an animal comes out, the rump.
I do not dispute meanings given in E.W. Lane's Arabic-English lexicon/dictionary
on Salat or even your implied meaning ?go/turn towards? (go/turn towards is not one of the meanings for salat in Lanes lexicon).When we clean ourselves and stand up in a devout frame of mind remembering Allah glorifying Him , praising Him and concentrating only on Him reciting His revelations, we are, surely, ?turning towards? Him. Some of us call this prayer. Prayer without rituals for the remembrance of Allah.
Also I agree different conjugation of the word salat can imply different meanings. Personally it is not important for me the actual English translation of the phrase ?uphold salat? since salat in the Quraan is a loaded word which has several rules and actions written in to it but what is important is the explanation in the Quraan with regard to the what , why, how ,when and where of the salat. And importantly to follow the instructions from Quraan and stand in front of our Lord 3 times a day for His remembrance.
With regard to the issue of Mumin and Muslim I do not agree with the article on the FM main page (although I agree with many other articles on the FM home page and the main influence for me to chose Quraan as the only source of religion/system in life , all praise be to Allah) because I believe the whole article on mumin and muslim is based on the wrong understanding of verse (4914). But this is another subject. Please direct me to any previous discussions on this subject if you can.
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peace warner,
Although you seem to distance yourself now from the definition ?Oath? for salat based on verses 91-12 this interpretation is all over you article.
For better readability and context, i chose "oath". If you are hung up on "oath", just take it out and use bond. they are very similar in the context. Like you said, the meaning can be more specific in certain contexts but it always has the core meaning. for example, when the God directs multiple salat on humans, i would choose "blessings" for better readability.
The main flaw in your article is that you misunderstood that the verses 91-12 are referring to polytheists and in that case the phrase ?uphold salat? in 95 and 911 should mean oath/bond ,other wise it will mean conversion of polytheists to Islam and since there can not be forceful conversion and naturally these polytheists could not have been compelled to do salat.
I do not undestand your above statement.
The point I am making is these verses are not about polytheists but about the Jews and/or Christians who have set up partners to God thus have become mushrikeen and also have broken the oath of allegiance and betrayed the messenger so they should be fought until they repent and establish salat/prayer/contact method as they are commanded by Allah. You know salat was enjoined upon the children of Israel.
the signs do not talk about becoming mushrikeen AND also..... it is only about their broken oaths. also, please clarify what you are translating salat in these signs as, is it both "prayer / contact method"?
(go/turn towards is not one of the meanings for salat in Lanes lexicon).
i do believe it is implied by al-musali, but every meaning (except perhaps central part of the back / rump) carries the connotation of go/turn towards in a close/positive manner. coincidence?
also, prayer is an odd one out as its the only one thats done to a deity, the rest are not like that. however, i did not exclude it as a meaning in my article however.re muslim/mumin
well, until evidence is brought forth to the contrary, my view is as stated in my previous message.wakas
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Peace be upon you Wakas
Quote warner
The main flaw in your article is that you misunderstood that the verses 91-12 are referring to polytheists and in that case the phrase ?uphold salat? in 95 and 911 should mean oath/bond ,other wise it will mean conversion of polytheists to Islam and since there can not be forceful conversion and naturally these polytheists could not have been compelled to do salat.
Quote Wakas
I do not understand your above statement.
Since you do not understand my above statement I will try to explain it , as simple as possible. I quote below from your article on salat analyzing verses 91-12 and also you trying to disapprove that salat means prayer.
idolater one who worships idols. (taken from www.dictionary.com)
Is The God commanding the idolaters to uphold/maintain the prayer, even though they are idolaters? Do they pray to their idols? Is The God giving them an ultimatum somehow convert to Muslims and uphold/maintain the prayer or if they don't they will get punished?
My answer to all three questions would be no, because this doesn't make sense. However, for those who believe salat=prayer, they are forced into a corner do they accept their interpretation doesn't make sense and reconsider their view of salat OR do they continue to follow salat=prayer and make the verses fit their view?
I have no doubt in my mind, that their initial reaction will be to choose the latter option. If they do not, their entire argument for salat=prayer collapses because there is no way 'the reading' would use the exact same wording for idolaters and believers, telling both of them to uphold/maintain the prayer!
- Use our logic/reason. Is it logical that The God would give the idolaters an ultimatum, forcing them to convert to Muslims otherwise they will be punished? This notion is nowhere to be found in 'the reading' and completely goes against its principles, which state
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm
As you will hopefully see, the concept of slw (i.e. to turn/go towards) is very broad and can be applied to many things. That is why in al quran, we see it being applied in a general, specific and varied manner, e.g those who set-up partners can repent and uphold the salat if they trangressed in the system
Can salat mean 'prayer' in this verse? Does The God force people to perform 'prayer' or they will be killed? How would idolaters (i.e. those who set-up partners) pray? Does this make sense to you? Please see these verses in conjunction with 2256.
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htm
In your article ?Disproved once and for all salat = prayer? The word idolater/s is used as the meaning for ?mushrikeen? about 30 times. In fact you gave the definition for idolaters.
idolater one who worships idols. (taken from www.dictionary.com)
Your argument is how can the Quraan command ?idolaters? to establish salat / prayer since idolaters do not know to uphold salat / prayer and in that case it will mean the Quraan is instructing the messenger to force the idolaters to ?convert? and "uphold salat/prayer" which can not be right.
Your logic was due to above argument ?uphold salat? in verse 95 and 911 should mean uphold the oath/bond and not uphold salat /prayer. That is your argument to ?Disprove once and for all salat = prayer? (the title of your article).
But actually the Quraan in Chapter 9 from verse 1-12 or even further is talking about Jews and/or Christians, who set up partners to God (mushrikeen). The verses 9 30-31 explains how a monotheist Jew or a Christian can be identified as a mushrikeen/one who set up partners to God.
Since these verses are about Jews and/or Christians the instruction in verses 95 and 911 with regard to ?uphold salat? can mean ?prayer? and does not have to mean ?uphold the oath/bond?. The Quraan tells us the Jews and the Christians were instructed to uphold salat by God through Moses and other prophets and through Jesus. (In the Torah and in the Gospel)
I hope this is clear now.
Before we discuss further I must stress the fact that the word idolaters can be misleading sometimes even for people who are proficient in English and Arabic both. And there is no proper single English word for mushrikeen/setting up partners to God.
In any case I list below few definitions of some widely used words by us and also by translators, words such as Meccan Pagans sometimes referred to as disbelievers.
Idolater A person who worships idols or images of deities or divinities
pagan rustic, civilian, non-militant, in Chr.L heathen as opp. to Christian or Jewish,. 1 A person holding religious beliefs other than those of any of the main religions of the world, a follower of a polytheistic or pantheistic religion.
Pagan (Thesarus)
noun missionaries trying to convert pagans unbeliever, non-believer, disbeliever, heathen, infidel, idolater, pantheist, atheist, polytheist.pagan adjective missionaries trying to cope with pagan beliefs paganistic, paganish, heathen, heathenish, heathenistic, infidel, idolatrous, pantheistic, atheistic, polytheistic.
pantheism 1 The belief or philosophical theory that God and the universe are identical (implying a denial of the personality and transcendence of God); the identification of God with the forces of nature and natural substances. M18. 2 Worship that admits or tolerates all gods. M19.
polytheism Gk polutheos of many gods, f. as POLY- + theos god see -ISM.] The doctrine or belief that there is more than one god; worship of several gods
Polytheists A person who believes in more than one god; an adherent of polytheism
Back to the discussion,
Brother, I asked few questions on muslim and mumin related to salat. Can you give me straight forward answers to those questions without pointing to the FM article.
Finally, 2 questions.
Is bowing and prostrating (rukuh and sujud) physical or non physical?
Is salat physical or non physical?
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peace warner,
Finally, 2 questions.
Is bowing and prostrating (rukuh and sujud) physical or non physical?to me
ruku means "humilty/humbly"
sujud means "acknowledgement/recognition"
thus, it theoretically could take either form.Is salat physical or non physical?
my article on slw clearly explains the term, it means "go/turn towards in a close/positive manner", this can take a physical form, as EXPLICITLY stated in my article (see 339), but that does not mean it can only be represented by a physical act.
I am going to edit my "slw=prayer disproved" article, which i have been meaning to do since i discovered the following point.
i will let you know once im done.
wakas
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Peace be upon you Wakas
ruku means "humilty/humbly"
sujud means "acknowledgement/recognition"
thus, it theoretically could take either form.I agree with your view on rukuh and sujud with its physical and non physical aspects and similarly with salat , and that salat can not be represented only by a physical act. But I am glad you are among those who understand salat has to be both physical and non physical according to the Quraan.
Rukuh and sujud are these the literal meanings?
(Please do not misunderstand, the reason I ask is because I have no Arabic knowledge
and this is a major impediment to understand the Quraan)Though rukuh in traditional system is bending at waist and touching the knees
(Bowing) I was of the opinion it is kneeling.
Please see and comment if time permits http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5792.0.In the same way what will be the ideal physical posture for sujud?
Can ?respect? be also included as a meaning for sujud?
Do you think the reason for sujud (acknowledgement/recognition) by Joseph?s parents/brothers is in relation to them acknowledging Joseph for his kindness etc.
Also can the same meaning be applied to, God commanding angels to do sujud to Adam as a recognition or "respect" to Adam?
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peace warner,
Whilst I think "salat" is not only represented by a physical act, I dont really see why people single out "salat" in terms of this. I think this approach/wording is a hang up from traditional thinking or a misunderstanding of the term. Anyways, our vehicle in this world is a physical body so its quite hard doing anything without having some physical act in it. Even "charitable" or "modest" or "honest" ALL have a physical component (e.g. physically giving money, physically wearing modest clothes, physically shaking hands to agree a deal etc.), but no-one refers to them as "physical modesty / physical honesty / physical charity" etc.
I would like to know if there is any concept in 'al quran' that cannot involve a physical component whatsoever. Please bear this in mind when using such terms in the future.
To understand why I chose the meanings I gave, please see the Classical Arabic meanings and every occurrence of these words in 'al quran'. They fit in every single one as far as I'm aware.
See PRL
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmWakas
