Re: Do Jinn Exist as Seperate Beings?
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Dear Mohamed,
Please refer to the meaning of the word sajdah and sujood... it has nothing to do with physical prostration, but rather being under the grasp of, or obeying. Our selfish desire and fiery disposition is not under our control by default and we have to work at it to control it... simple.
If however you believe that Allah asked angels to physically perform sajdah to Adam, then you must also believe in ritual Salah/Namaz. If you do then I'll end the discussion right here.
Not sure if this answers your question about my post? Please let me know.
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Peace,
Mohammed, the idea of 'spirits' can be found in any tradition. I see you are not aware that ancient commentators say the same thing as i do. That the word jinn is NOT a title of an intelligent species, but a description of an attribute an object or creature could have. The idea that the word jinn is a title became the main trend only after 500AH. As you said the Arabic is very wide and you are limiting it. You say that we must beware. I say to you You have no knowledge what so ever on the commentators of the Quran, otherwise you would have known that the early commentators didn't see the word jinn as a title of a species. You are a classic muslim who carries on the trend that is dominant for the last 600 years in Islam that was started by ex-christians, persians and jews. The Quran talking about evolution is directly connected with the story of the early people, adami, in the Quran. The bigbang in the Quran has nothing to do with this discussion. I suggest you start learning more on ancient commentators instead of just following the crowd. The trend that you defend, emerged 600 years ago in Islam and is the reason for the downfall of Islam.
You say beware for the ones who try to divide sunni/shia/ibada. This comment is ignorant as they are already divided. It is because of these sects Islam is divided. The fitna has always been there and will always be there. The idea that it has begun again is ignorance. It is because the muslims have followed certain commentators the last 1000 years blindly Islam was destroyed, and guess what the background was of those commentators? Yes, christians and persians and jews. You warn us for these groups infiltrating now, but you are ignorant of the fact that these groups already destroyed Islam from the beginning on....
Time for you to learn more brother....
Peace
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Peace,
This is a typical answer when they can't defend their position. I can read the arabic and understand it, but i use CLASSIC arabic dictionaries as background and not MODERN arabic which you use IF you can read Arabic. I study Islam at college university, this is no hobby of mine. But this has nothing to do with it and is just an easy escapegoat by you.
The idea of jinn being the name of a species is a trend that emerged around a 1000 years ago and became the dominant trend around 600 years ago. Iblis was approached not a creature, but as the name of the frustrated side of man, and shaitan was not used as a title, but used to describe ANYTHING distanced from Allah and Truth. That shaitan the noun became Shaitan the title of an evil creature, is because of Persian/Christian influence, where the noun satan of the hebrew texts also became the title Satan, the fallen angel. Under these Persians/Christian influences, the real meanings and understanding of shaitan and iblis became ignored and redundant and was replaced by foreign interpretation of older and especially wrong Theology. Why do you think Allah brought another Scripture? Not only because the older ones were distorted, the approaches to these texts were highly distorted. When the Quran came, the text couldn't be changed, but they still had their twisted approach which they used on the Quran.
The Islam of the last 1000-600 years is the end result of using the twisted approach of the Persians/Christians/Jews on the Quran, and the real meanings were replaced over time so they became overall accepted and used in the arabic language.
BEWARE for the ignorance of believing your approach is based on Quran-arabic and was always the approach to the Quran, because i can prove it is different just by studying the ancient commentators.
Peace
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Salaam Arnoldyasin
You are a very good Muslim and I have visited your site. No doubt we both agree about the definition of satan. And you can see that I have written satan with a small 's'. Of course, you are well aware about the definition of satan and explanation of it in the complete last two chapters of the Holy Koran, the chapters 113 and 144.
I also agree with you that Iblis no longer exists.. The only thing we don't agree that if the jinn is a species or not. According to my reading of the Koran I believe that jinn is a species, created long, long before humans. Jinns like humans are mortals and have freewill like humans. The messenger Muhammad in Koran is mentioned as a messenger for both jinns and humans; no other messenger in Koran is mentioned as such.
Since Iblis was (past tense) and a mortal, so he longer exist.. Iblis and satan are not exchangeable with each other. Man is central to Christianity because God is man and Lucifer is a man on earth, not to Islam. God Kingdom is very, very vast and expanding.
So, I request you to consider that there are other higher intelligent beings beside humans. And, in between these two higher intelligent beings there are lots of other intelligent beings. I request you not to restrict yourself just because Iblis was a jinn and refused God's command, so there are no other intelligent beings.
I have been to your site and seen your excellent articles. I have also seen, that you like me believe that Koran talks about the evolution. By this I mean the evolution with the big "E". I will also suggest that if you read the new 2006 theory of Big Bang!, it is like the Koranic theory. The recent interview on BBC (Hardtalk) with Penrose, the mini god of Big Bang!, the colleague of Hawking. If you want to I can post you the link for it.
Also, I have revulsion with the theory of Lucifer, Rapture and such things. I call the Rapture the Crapture. No offense intended to anyone.
If I have offended you than I apologize and seek forgiveness in the month of Ramadan.
Mohamed
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Peace,
You haven't read my article and you don't understand a thing i see. I never said iblis doesn't excist anymore, i said and say it does excist as iblis is the arabic word used in the Quran for our desperate and frustrated side. IBLIS IS NO CREATURE OR MORTAL. JINN IS NOT A TITLE OF A SPECIES AND THE QURAN DOESN'T REFER TO AN INVISIBLE CREATURE RACE.
AND THE QURAN DOES REFER TO EVOLUTION, IT WERE EVEN MUSLIMS WHO SAID MAN EVOLVED FROM APES. DARWIN STOLE THIS THEORY AND MADE IT 'WESTERN'.
You don't offend me at all, i'm just disappointed in your stubborness and blindness in the things i'm saying. I have posted several things and I NEVER SAID IBLIS WAS MORTAL OR DOESN'T EXCIST ANYMORE. That is the annoying part that you keep repeating your ideas instead of discussing the points i bring to you. JINN IS NOT A TITLE OF A SPECIES. IBLIS IS A JINN BECAUSE IT IS NOT SEEN BECAUSE IT IS A SIDE OF MAN'S PSYCHE. JINN MEANS SOMETHING RARELY OR NOT SEEN/CONCEALED BY TIME. SO THIS MEANS ANYTHING THAT IS RARELY SEEN OR CONCEALED.
read my article again and i will show you that you have NO proof at all for the 'intelligent beings' you are talking about. The Quran does NOT talk about a race next to humans at all.
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Salaam Arnoldyasin,
We agree to disagree. Hassan is name and it means beautiful. Iblis is a name and it means despair. Though only Muhammad is mentioned in the Koran as messenger for both jinns and humans. This is what Koran says about Solomon
The Ant Chapter number 27
And before Solomon were marshaled his hosts, - of jinns and humans and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. Verse 17.
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said ?O? you ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it.? Verse 18.
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said O? my Lord, my Sustainer! So order me that I may be grateful for Your favors, which you have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please You And admit me, by Your Grace, to the ranks of Your righteous servants.? Verse 19. Smile
Ameen
The question is why Koran tells us that only Muhammad (pbuh) is the messenger for both jinns and humans, why not other messengers such as Abraham, Moses, Solomon, Jesus?
Mohamed
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Salaam arnoldyasin,
You might interested in this
Rashad is the only one who believes that God's khalifa on earth is satan and that satan is a god on earth. This is what the Christians beleive. Catch the drift!
No mainstream Muslim believe as such. All mainstream Muslims believe that God's khalifa on earth is human beings.
Mohamed
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Dear Mohamed,
Please do give some material from www.ourbeacon.com a read ... I would urge you to give QXP - "Quran as It explains Itself" a read (in its entirity), reflect on it, and then come back to have a meaningful discussion. Please give up looking for resources such as Bukhari or Tabari for explanation of the Quran through Hadith.
Regards,
maxq -
Dear Mohamed,
Please do give some material from www.ourbeacon.com a read ... I would urge you to give QXP - "Quran as It explains Itself" a read (in its entirity), reflect on it, and then come back to have a meaningful discussion. Please give up looking for resources such as Bukhari or Tabari for explanation of the Quran through Hadith.
Regards,
maxqDear, Dear maxq,
You are telling me to read the translation of the Koran, when I can read it in my own language of Arabic and discuss the Koran with people in Arabic. Kudos to you my dear, dear friend.
And before Solomon were marshaled his hosts, - of jinns and humans and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. Verse 17, Chapter 27.
You see in the above aya, three creations are discussed, three distinct creation are discussed. The jinns, human and the one's who fly.
I suggest you should read up on Rapture, the number is 666, the Devil trapping the God in Hell for three days, Lucifer, Milton's Paradise lost, Dante's Divine Comedy, Pullman's His Dark Materials, Goethe's Faust. While at this, try to read Alama Iqbal and Ghalib (both Pakistanis).
Ones you have done this, then you will understand the proper threat to mankind.
Mohamed
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Salaam Arnoldyasin,
We agree to disagree. Hassan is name and it means beautiful. Iblis is a name and it means despair. Though only Muhammad is mentioned in the Koran as messenger for both jinns and humans. This is what Koran says about Solomon
The Ant Chapter number 27
And before Solomon were marshaled his hosts, - of jinns and humans and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. Verse 17.
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said ?O? you ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it.? Verse 18.
So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said O? my Lord, my Sustainer! So order me that I may be grateful for Your favors, which you have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please You And admit me, by Your Grace, to the ranks of Your righteous servants.? Verse 19. Smile
Ameen
The question is why Koran tells us that only Muhammad (pbuh) is the messenger for both jinns and humans, why not other messengers such as Abraham, Moses, Solomon, Jesus?
Mohamed
Peace,
Ok then, please give me ONE law given to Jinns in the Quran....and the birds are not real birds, Tair in classic arabic was also used for cavalery, that this doesn't refer to a prophet's miracle can be seen that in 2716, Solomo clearly says that ALL of his people understood the mantiq=logic of tair, fleetfooted animals, as in horses....So the jinns in that verse are tribes from a different country who worked for him, as their origin is jinn=concealed by distance, the tair is another term used in CLASSIC arabic for horses.
Every prophet was send to his own people, Muhammed was send to all of mankind. He is called the mercy of MANKIND, not the mercy of mankind AND jinns. So the jinns that are refered to are humans, nomads, people in power, non-arabs who's origin are jinn=concealed by the horizon.
Aladdin, the arabic you use is MODERN arabic and is USELESS when reading the Quran as classic arabic has wide and wide meanings which are completely lost in modern arabic. And by the way, Allamma Iqbal also believed the same thing i do, he didn't believe jinns to be invisible beings and he didn't believe in miracles that go against the laws of nature. He believed these were all misunderstood verses and mistranslated because the arabic was changed by the Persians...
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Peace,
JINN IS NOT A TITLE OF A SPECIES. IBLIS IS A JINN BECAUSE IT IS NOT SEEN BECAUSE IT IS A SIDE OF MAN'S PSYCHE. JINN MEANS SOMETHING RARELY OR NOT SEEN/CONCEALED BY TIME. SO THIS MEANS ANYTHING THAT IS RARELY SEEN OR CONCEALED.
Salaam,
So, Muhammad is the messenger of MAN'S PSYCHE and MAN. Whereas, the all other messengers are ONLY messengers for MAN and NOT MAN'S PSYCHE.
Keep up the great work Mr. Arnold! God BLESS YOU!
Mohamed
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Peace,
Muhammed, you clearly show a case of tunnelvision. How many times must i tell you that jinn is not a title of a species, but a description of an attribute an object or creature could have.
It is like the term 'walking beings', does this refer to one thing only? NO, it refers to ANYTHING that walks. Jinn means 'Something rarely or not seen/concealed by time, horizon or distance'. Does this also refer to ONE thing? NO. It refers to anything rarely or not seen/concealed by time, horizon or distance which fit the context of the verses.
You speak arabic you say, Ok, then please translate the word jinn when reading the Quran.
Iblis=desperate/frustrated side is a jinn=concealed. The tribes that worked for Solomo were also called jinn=rarely seen, as their origin is jinn=concealed by distance. Dead people are called jinn=concealed by time. Nomads are called jinn=concealed by the horizon and surroundings. Man-made idols are called jinn=not seen as they don't excist. Emotions are called jinn=concealed for man's eyes. Kings and rulers are called jinn=rarely seen in public.
For you, jinn can only mean one thing, and thus explains the contradiction in this last post of yours. You don't like the truth? Allamma Iqbal wrote his books because of this ignorance that has plagued Islam for centuries. We can agree to disagree, but your last post is pure ignorance and frustration that you are showing.
All prophet's were send to their OWN people. Muhammed was send to ALL people. This includes people living outside Arabia, which are of course jinn=not seen/concealed by distance for Muhammed. Jinn is a description, not a title. It doesn't mean one thing or refer to one thing.
It is sad that people who speak arabic are so arrogant about it, as they are totaly ignorant when it comes to the Quranic arabic of 1400 years ago. I hope you will see over time what i mean.
Peace bro
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Dear Mohamed,
I invited you to read up the QXP since it accounts for classical Arabic and the beduin diaelect... if present-day spoken arabic is your mother-tongue, this becomes especially important for you to trace the meaning back to classical Arabic and not to rely on contemporary context, since the context of many Arabic words have been contaminated by Persian, Turkish, Egyptian, Sabaic as well as Jewish/Christian concepts. Nomads were referred to as the Jinn in the classical diaelect... when they establish and urbanize themselves, they become Ins... I have had significant work on classical Arabic... I am a Qari btw and have more than 20 years of experience and learning in Qiraa't. I will leave it at that... I do not claim to be an Ustaz and I should not either, but I do know a few things that help keep me reasonable.
an-Naml aayat 17 reads
2717 Solomon?s army included warrior tribes of the woods and the mountains, dwellers of townships, and great riders of the tribe of Taer. They were well disciplined, and dedicated to any appointed mission.
My intention was not to put you in distress in any way dear friend... if you are offended, I sincerely apologize for my lack of sensitivity.
I think Arnold did a great job at explaining the meaning of jinn and jannah in his article. In the end it boils down to what one wants to believe and culture does play a significant role in how your primal imagination (the hidden/fantasy/feiry-dispositioin/distant-from-reason) fashions your belief and if you are able to control it, or it control you.
I do not think I or anyone else can make you or anyone change their opinion by force and we have no right to try doing so either. We do have a right to point in a direction which I think Arnold did very well... to follow it or not to follow, that's the reader's decision.
Finally, if you approach this from a philosophical point of view and keep in mind that al-Lah is the Lord of the Worlds (hinting more than or equal to three worlds) ... then there can be an existance of other beings in this and other universes (mind you though that Quran speaks only of ad-dunya and al-aakhirah of importance for us ... which implies that other worlds are of no direct influence or consequence to us to begin with). Even if you believe that somehow these magical extradimensional beings called the Jinn and Shayaateen exist, how do we sense them? Only through our actions and intensions, which you can describe as their manifestation in our world at best. But according to the Quran, only al-Lah is the being that is evident through His manifestations... nothing else has been spoken of in the Quran this way...
I will participate on this thread no further since what I had to say, I have already done so. Nothing else from me can add more to my expression in this matter.
maxq
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Dear Mohamed,
I invited you to read up the QXP since it accounts for classical Arabic and the beduin diaelect... if present-day spoken arabic is your mother-tongue, this becomes especially important for you to trace the meaning back to classical Arabic and not to rely on contemporary context, since the context of many Arabic words have been contaminated by Persian, Turkish, Egyptian, Sabaic as well as Jewish/Christian concepts. Nomads were referred to as the Jinn in the classical diaelect... when they establish and urbanize themselves, they become Ins... I have had significant work on classical Arabic... I am a Qari btw and have more than 20 years of experience and learning in Qiraa't. I will leave it at that... I do not claim to be an Ustaz and I should not either, but I do know a few things that help keep me reasonable.
an-Naml aayat 17 reads
2717 Solomon?s army included warrior tribes of the woods and the mountains, dwellers of townships, and great riders of the tribe of Taer. They were well disciplined, and dedicated to any appointed mission.
maxq
Dear, Dear maxq,
Here is what Ayman is written about "tyr", "taer" and the ones who fly, "tyur". The word is not "taer" in the above aya, but "tyur.
"Common names attempt to describe the nature of things. In Arabic, the common name is usually based on a predominant property that the object being described possesses. Hence, the common name "ta'ir" (a flying creature) comes from the root "TYR" (to fly)."
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
If you think in your right mind that ROCK and STONES, means MILK of CAMEL and GOATS, then check out this post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4790.msg105639#msg105639
Mohamed
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Salaam Arnold and Maxq,
How would you translate the following verse?
al-Baqarah 002158
2158
Transliteration
Inna alssafa waalmarwata min shaAAa-iri Allahi faman hajja albayta awi iAAtamara fala junaha AAalayhi an yattawwafa bihima waman tatawwaAAa khayran fa-inna Allaha shakirun AAaleemun
This is the translation provided by the Free-Minds
The camel and goat heavy with milk are amongst God's decrees. So whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the sanctuary, or is merely passing through, commits no error that he should partake of them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
Thanks in advance.
Mohamed
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Peace,
"Common names attempt to describe the nature of things. In Arabic, the common name is usually based on a predominant property that the object being described possesses. Hence, the common name "ta'ir" (a flying creature) comes from the root "TYR" (to fly)."
Yes, but the 6th century arabs used it for several things. Just like we say when we are in a hurry 'i must fly'. It refers to speed, the same way it was used by the arabs where tair also was used for horses as their speed made them fly over the sand. Tair also was used for omen and destiny, as vultures in the sky warned something had happened, and so Tair also became equal to omen or destiny.
As for that translation you gave, i'm not convinced yet it is the right approach. A translation depends on logic and context. This translation is based on the idea that Mecca didn't excist in the time of Muhammed, and so Safar and Marwa could not have been physical locations. I still need more proof form this assumption. But this stands apart from Tair or jinn, as jinn is a simple noun description and not a title-name of one thing only, and Tair was used for several things, and Allah doesn't change His laws, plus 2716 showed that ALL of Solomo's people could understand Tair shows it doesn't refer to birds but to horses. Hudhud was a common name in Solomon's time, as it is used in the Bible multiple times and there was a tribe also called Hudhud near Solomon's kingdom.
Peace
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Salaam Arnold and Maxq,
How would you translate the following verse?
al-Baqarah 002158
2158
Transliteration
Inna alssafa waalmarwata min shaAAa-iri Allahi faman hajja albayta awi iAAtamara fala junaha AAalayhi an yattawwafa bihima waman tatawwaAAa khayran fa-inna Allaha shakirun AAaleemun
This is the translation provided by the Free-Minds
The camel and goat heavy with milk are amongst God's decrees. So whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the sanctuary, or is merely passing through, commits no error that he should partake of them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
Thanks in advance.
Mohamed
Salaam Arnold,
Can you please translate the above for me, as I am not sure if the above translation is correct.
Mohamed
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Peace,
Safa=Sad-Fa-Waw = it became clear/limpid/pure (often said of a drink), opposite of Kaf-Dal-Ra, free from turbidness/thickness/muddiness, free from admixture, became cloudless (said of air/atmosphere, but also said of love/life/mind/heart), clear/pure/best/choice/favoured part/potion, clear/clarify, true/sincere, distinguish particularly/specially, select/elect/prefer, serenity of life, comfort, reciprocal sincerity/purity.
take the best of, to choose in preference to, grant to another a preference in the choice of anything.
abound with milk (said of a she-camel/ewe/goat/sheep), palm-tree heavy with fruit,
reached stone (said of a digger).
the portion of the spoil, which the chief/commander chooses for himself before the division.
become destitute/devoid.
stone, smooth stone/rock, stone that doesn't give growth to anything, hard broad stone, a certain place in Mekkeh.Marwa== Miim-Ra-Waw = flint stones, white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started, the stone on which an animal is slaughtered.
The eminence in the immediate vicinity of Ka'bah.This is a possible translation and needs more clarification as you can see there are many possibilities.
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Peace,
Safa=Sad-Fa-Waw = it became clear/limpid/pure (often said of a drink), opposite of Kaf-Dal-Ra, free from turbidness/thickness/muddiness, free from admixture, became cloudless (said of air/atmosphere, but also said of love/life/mind/heart), clear/pure/best/choice/favoured part/potion, clear/clarify, true/sincere, distinguish particularly/specially, select/elect/prefer, serenity of life, comfort, reciprocal sincerity/purity.
take the best of, to choose in preference to, grant to another a preference in the choice of anything.
abound with milk (said of a she-camel/ewe/goat/sheep), palm-tree heavy with fruit,
reached stone (said of a digger).
the portion of the spoil, which the chief/commander chooses for himself before the division.
become destitute/devoid.
stone, smooth stone/rock, stone that doesn't give growth to anything, hard broad stone, a certain place in Mekkeh.Marwa== Miim-Ra-Waw = flint stones, white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started, the stone on which an animal is slaughtered.
The eminence in the immediate vicinity of Ka'bah.This is a possible translation and needs more clarification as you can see there are many possibilities.
What do you think about the following literal translation from this site http//yaqb.org/
Literal That the Saffa/rock and the Marwa/flint stones (are) from God's methods/ways of worship, so who performed hajj (to) the House/Home , or headed to/visited so no offense/guilt/sin on him that (he) circles/walks around by them, and who volunteered good , so that God (is) thankful/grateful, knowledgeable.
Thank you my freind, God bless you and God bless us all. Ameen Ya'Rabbi!
Mohamed