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peace Reza,
Pheonix1, I still fail to see what proof you have of that these people never existed. Prove from the Quran that they are not real people.
I fail to see your logic. How do I prove something doesn't exist? You are the one who's saying they exist, so you provide the proof.
All I am saying is that since we have no proof of their existence, and the quran tells us to bring proof and verify, we cannot believe these people actually existed.
But maybe we'll find out later that they did. But whether they existed or not isn't the important thing. What's important is that we learn something from these examples provided in the quran.The communications are the revelations. When it is recited to them "jesus was born" "Moses split the sea" "etc" they say these are just stoies of yore, mere stories of the old, of the anceint.
I don't think this verse has anything to do with whether these things actually happened or not, but whether these stories have any relevance to our lives or not. I'm saying they do. But that relevance is only there when we look for the deeper, metaphorical meaning. That's my position. (at the moment at least...)
Plus brother, I never said your are not a moslem. I never made a judgement about your label in your belief nor anything. I merely asked you if you were a moslem or not so I could explain more or less. Seeing how if someone is not a moslem and is trying to aquire knoweledge they need more refrences and information as opposed to someone who already knows.
I know you didn't. My point was that "Muslim" is just a meaningless label. Anyone can call themselves muslims and not be one. Get my point?
Why call ourselves anything at all? -
oh whops my bad then i agree with khalil ;D
peace
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Bismilah Al Rahman Al Raheem
Dear brother Pheonix1,
I'm becoming lost in the topic. I will post what I believe you are saying, then I want you to post what you are saying. Pretty much to recap our views.From what I understand
- You do not believe that Jesus actually existed, or that Moses parted the sea, or any of the other stories, because there is no proof of it. Correct?
- You believe that the Quran is the word of Allah, unchanged and untouched.
Once we clarify this, I will go ahead and re-explain my post, doing so now without being 100% sure of where we both stand is a bad call because we could be discussing two totally different subjects. )
Wa Salam brother.
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if you havent seen it allready. This actually delivers a sharp, sharp image of scientology.
http//www.xenutv.com/cruise/sp-closet.htm southpark, in the closet. that cost them chef (he is scientologist) and was threatened and fought by tom tom cruise
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peace magi,
I've watched that. Hilarious. Chef is a hypocrite. South Park has done every religion before this and when they do his, he starts talking about the show being "offensive."Reza,
From what I understand
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You do not believe that Jesus actually existed, or that Moses parted the sea, or any of the other stories, because there is no proof of it. Correct?
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You believe that the Quran is the word of Allah, unchanged and untouched.
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I think that they are allegorical stories. But even if they did happen ( I can't be 100% sure), we have to take them as allegories to gain meaning from them.
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It's a fact that the Quran has been touched and changed (maybe only a little bit but still). But is it the word of God? I don't know.
All I can say is this the TRUTH is from God. We have to verify the Quran. If it's true, then it is from God. We cannot blindly believe in it.
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Bismilah
I seek refuge in Allah, from Satan, the rejected
Salam aleykom brother,
Who touched? When did they touch it? Where? Which verses have been touched? Where is the proof for this, brother?Elaborate, please.
(This is) an Arabic Qur?an with no distortion in it, so that hopefully they will guard against evil. (392
Will they not ponder the Qur?an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it. (482)Prove that the Qur'an is changed.
Allahu Akbar!
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I'm well aware of different "versions."
I'm not sure your knowledge on Arabic or basic Arabic.
From my understanding of old Arabic, there were no accents, but it was presumed to be there.Take the word David for example. In OLD arabic, David would be written as "dvd". Even today, in Farsi people dont put accents because they know "dvd" is david. Everyone knows its not Dooveed, because it has no meaning. They know its not DAAVAAD, because it has no meaning. They know its not DEEVOOD, because it has no meaning. It is simply David. So as the language progressed so did the Arabic Qur'an. The word "dvd" remained the same, but to be read easier it now has "David". It has the "A" and the "I"
Lets consider the article, it does a great job explaining the doubt, but remember that the original Arabic still remains today.For one, who is "THE QUR'AN ACCORDING TO THE TRANSMISSION OF IMAM WARSH"?
2nd, what is his credibility?3rd - The article only shows how some words "changed"
Thats like saying Allah trasmitted this message
"The brown fox is fast"
but it was changed to
"The brown fox is fsat"Its just a mistake, not by Allah, not by man changing it purposely, but by the COPYIST. So the ORIGINAL says the same thing AND the "changed"/"altered version", but the message is STILL that the brown fox is fast."
4th- For someone to make such a huge claim, all I see is Arabic words. When someone makes claims, they should support it with DIRECT photos from BOTH books, not just words....
This seems identical to the QuranBrowser some Christianity missionaries made and then "found mistakes" inside it by translating words into what they want.
Still not convinced brother, this proof has more holes than the WHOLEYBible
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Salam
No brother, you completely missed my point. There is no change in the Quran, only progession of the language of Arabic. The words are still the same, and if they aren't, there is no proof of that, that site does a HORRIBLE job of "proving". They proved nothing at all other than make false claims without backing it up.
Language is bound to change, but that doesn't mean that the Quran in Arabic has, by any stretch of the imagination.
"But the changes are still there, aren't they?"
no, they aren't. I fail to see any change...if by adding the accents to words to make it easier to read and the progression of the language, then you are wrong. That is not change in Allah's word. Change is this"Do not walk on the water with your feet"
to this
"Do not swim under water with your shoes"That is what change is, not mistakes by copyists, or progression of language.
brother, the fact that you were pointing out wasn't a fact, it was a misunderstanding on your behalf and an absolute lie from the article/lack of showing proof. If someone has such a huge claim like that, they need proof, not just words spelled differently.
Wa salam.
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wow Reza
That made so much sense i never thought of it that way!
jazak Allah kheir bro
indeed it's true, arabic was written like that, and later became more sophisticated. the words are the same and the meaning is the same.
phenomenal
i'm actually enjoying both sides of this debate very much because my beliefs lie somewhere in the middle here
keep up the good work guys
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Bismilah Al Rahman Al Raheem
I seek refuge in Allah, from Satan, the rejected.brother, real ALL of this.
Wa Salam
Why is that?Lol. brother, I cant explain WHY, but I can show you that it has. It's not hard to see at all by just recalling books you've read in school. Remember shakespear? Compare his english to english now. If anyone tells me it has remained the same, they are either blind or illiterate. It is grossly obvious that language has changed. What about grammer and spelling? Yeah, that too. Again, look at the grammer and spelling used. They may be simmilar, but they they have changed.
I can show a perfect example. Go back 100 years. What was the definition of gay? Happy, joyful. Now what is it also used as? Homosexual. Among people it is used as homosexual, happy, and even someone who someone else dislikes.
yeah, I know what your going to say, "but it still means happy". Yeah, it obviously does, that doesn't mean that language hasn't changed. The fact that it is used as homosexual now is profound evidence.
Do we in our day to day lives talking to friends use "Thou"? Do you normally go to your friend and ask "Art thou in thine house?" Do you even speak like that in your everyday life? Clearly not from your posts.
As for "WHY" it changes. My linguistics teacher didn't know why. So to ask me, is something. Plus, the reason WHY it changes is not even relevant to the actual changing and what we are talking about.
Also, "Differences between British English and American English
Main article American and British English differencesAmerican English has many spelling differences from English as used elsewhere (especially British English), some of which were made as part of an attempt to make more rational the spelling used in Britain at the time. Unlike many 20th century language reforms (for example, Turkey's alphabet shift, Norway's spelling reform) the American spelling changes were not driven by government, but by textbook writers and dictionary makers. Spelling tendencies in Britain from the 17th century until the present day (e.g. -ise for -ize, programme for program, kerb for curb (noun), skilful for skillful, chequered for checkered, etc.), in some cases favored by the francophile tastes of 19th century Victorian England, had little effect on American English.
The first American dictionary was written by Noah Webster in 1828. At the time the United States was a relatively new country and Webster's particular contribution was to show that the region spoke a different dialect from Britain, and so he wrote a dictionary with many spellings differing from the standard. Many of these changes were initiated unilaterally by Webster.
Webster also argued for many "simplifications" to the idiomatic spelling of the period. Many, although not all, of his simplifications fell into common usage alongside the original versions with simple spelling modifications.
Some words with simplified spellings in American English are words such as center, color, and maneuver, which are spelled centre, colour, and manoeuvre in other forms of English.
American English also has many lexical differences from British English (BrE). American English sometimes favors words that are morphologically more complex, whereas British English uses clipped forms, such as AmE transportation and BrE transport or where the British form is a back-formation, such as AmE burglarize and BrE burgle (from burglar)."
It is the same English, it is clear that they spell things differntly too? If someone spelled "color" as "colour", what does that mean? That the language is changed in terms of spelling. Maybe even prononciation. But when we say, "I like to color" is EXACTLY the SAME THING as "I like to colour".
"In many ways, compared to British English, American English is conservative in its phonology. Dialect in North America is most distinctive on the East Coast of the continent; this is partly because these areas were in contact with England, and imitated prestigious varieties of British English at a time when those varieties were undergoing changes."
"The interior of the country was settled by people who were no longer closely connected to England, as they had no access to the ocean during a time when journeys to Britain were always by sea. As such, the inland speech is much more homogeneous than the East Coast speech and did not imitate the changes in speech from England."
Language changes whether you admit to it or not, brother. But the fact still remains, the Quran is unchanged in its meaning and the words are still the same whether its missing 1 dot or 2, one dash or 15.
If I wryte lyke this, duz this meen that this iz diferint frum this If I write like this, does this mean that this is different from this.
Clearly not, the spelling changes, but the meaning is the EXACTLY same.
Allahu Akbar and inshaAllah you will read ALL my post and not pieces or just the highlighten portions.
And brother BOOST, All praise and thanks be to Allah. ).
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peace Reza,
A bit of a misunderstanding there (on your part!).
I meant, why did the Quranic arabic not change? if the rest of the language changed that is. Not why and how languages change over time. I wish it didn't (maybe Shakespear would make some sense then) but it does. I know that.
It's just that I didn't get what you were saying.
But let me tell you what I understand
The arabic language changed, and so did the way the quran was written, but the message remained the same.
Is that correct?If so, then my question is, didn't it still CHANGE? I don't what the change is, or why it took place. The fact remains is that the book changed.
I'm not talking about the MESSAGE. I'm talking about the physical book. The book itself changed.
And that's why I think we are looking at the word "quran" the wrong way.
I don't think it's referring to the book, but the message.
And if it's the message, then it's EVERYWHERE. Not just in this book.
The message never changes. The truths the book contain never die. And the truths aren't restricted to this book either.
We already have the truth with us. -
Ayootho billahi mina shaytan arajeem
Bismilah Al Rahman Al Raheem
In the name of Allah, The Beneficent, The MercifulI meant, why did the Quranic arabic not change?
What does this question mean? It has no meaning? Quranic arabic? The arabic in the Quran isn't exclusive to only the Quran.
If your asking why didn't arabic, the language, not change, then I assure you that is has changed over time. What proof do I have? I have given it earlier that all languages are subject to change. Take farsi for example. The word raheem in farsi is DIRECTLY taken from arabic.
The arabic language changed, and so did the way the quran was written, but the message remained the same.
Yes, but I know what the next move is. The question you have formed is a setup for a "Then you agree that Quran changed".
So, you KIND OF have it correct there.If so, then my question is, didn't it still CHANGE?
Yup. I was right.
Dude. The way you want it to be is in this way. A book that is EXACTLY the same as the Quran in 1400 year ago. Thats not going to happen. You think that this gives rise to errors in the Quran or contradictions or proof that it is not the word of Allah or nor authentic. I dont know what kind of a Moslem doesn't want to be called Moslem, does use the word Allah, and doesn't consider the Quran perfect and pure and authentic. I've always thought that a criteria for being someone who believe in God is someone who believes in His book. Quran.
And the truths aren't restricted to this book either.
Yeah, im sure the wholey "holy" bible has plenty of truths. Aside from stoning everyone people to death for this and that, lack absolute disregard for woman's right like freedom of speech and being able to speak in churches, to bash babies on stones, spreading dung on faces, and from Deuteronomy 2118-21, we can see where "The Lottery" gets its theme from.
We already have the truth with us.
What is this truth? And where is it, if it, according to you, isn't the Quran (seeing how its changed. again, according to you, and Answering Islam. Which by the way is a missionary movement to fight back AnsweringChristianity.com)
I dont think you'll ever understand pheonix, considering your not a moslem.
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why did reza leave? ???
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I guess he didn't like me. confused
I'll still reply to his post just in case he comes back.
Dude. The way you want it to be is in this way. A book that is EXACTLY the same as the Quran in 1400 year ago. Thats not going to happen. You think that this gives rise to errors in the Quran or contradictions or proof that it is not the word of Allah or nor authentic. I dont know what kind of a Moslem doesn't want to be called Moslem, does use the word Allah, and doesn't consider the Quran perfect and pure and authentic. I've always thought that a criteria for being someone who believe in God is someone who believes in His book. Quran.
I never said or implied what you are saying here. I never said the quran has contradictions. I just said that the quran has had changes made to it. That's all.
Yeah, im sure the wholey "holy" bible has plenty of truths. Aside from stoning everyone people to death for this and that, lack absolute disregard for woman's right like freedom of speech and being able to speak in churches, to bash babies on stones, spreading dung on faces, and from Deuteronomy 2118-21, we can see where "The Lottery" gets its theme from.
I was being sarcastic about being an evangelical spy. I have never really read the bible, nor do I claim to follow it or anything like that.
What is this truth? And where is it, if it, according to you, isn't the Quran (seeing how its changed. again, according to you, and Answering Islam. Which by the way is a missionary movement to fight back AnsweringChristianity.com)
It is in the quran (or is it? we must verify). But the Quran is only a confirmation of the truths we already possess.
I dont think you'll ever understand pheonix, considering your not a moslem.
Of course i'm not a Moslem, I don't belong to any organized group. I do try to submit to God, however.
peace.