Salaat & zakaat is for ALL muslims, not just the believers.
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Peace wakas,
No, in my understanding the words derived from SLW can have different meanings in al-qur'aan as per the context of their usage as you brilliantly proved in your latest salat article.
The verses quoted in my post above mention the same salaat for muslims/submitters as that for the believers as evidenced by the same phrase "aqimi alsalaat" used for both, which Allah commands us to uphold for His remembrance
2014 "I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and uphold the salaat (aqimi alsalaat) for My remembrance."
Thus showing that "aqimi alsalaat" is for ALL muslims and not just the believers.
Peace
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Peace wakas,
In al-qur'aan Allah commands to uphold salaat at certain times, for example 1778 and the phrase used is "aqimi al-salaat". Thus when he commands muslimeen/mumineen to "aqimi al-salaat", in my understanding He is referring to this same timed salaat.
Tanveer
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peace tanveer,
Well, firstly, the regular/timed slw is always stated for the mumineen as far as I'm aware, so I would be uncomfortable concluding your view. However, we can see if the view holds...
How do you differentiate between a muslim & a mumin, i.e. what is the difference?
What do you mean by "salat" in "aqimi al-salaat"?
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
I have shown that according to al-qur'aan "aqimi al-salaat" is enjoined upon both muslim and mumin; does it then matter what the difference is between muslim and mumin and what salaat means in "aqimi al-salaat" as far as this current discussion is concerned ?
My aim in this discussion was to show that according to al-qur'aan, "aqimi al-salaat" is enjoined upon both muslims and mumins thus being obligatory upon all muslims and not just the believers. According to the context, the "aqimi al-salaat" for both muslims and mumins seems to be the same "aqimi al-salaat" which is mentioned in 2014.
In my understanding, mumins are subset of muslims and the salaat in "aqimi al-salaat" as mentioned in the context of muslims and mumins and 2014 is a process by which a muslim/mumin connects with or turns towards The God at specific times by remembring and glorifying Him by reciting from al-qur'aan in a moderate tone and humbly submitting to Him.
Now is "timed" aqimi al-salaat enjoined only upon mumins or is also enjoined upon all muslims ? According to the context of 11114 it seems that the "timed" salaat is enjoined upon all muslims and not just the mumins
11111 And to each your Lord will recompense their works. He is expert in what they do.
11112 So stand straight as you were commanded and those who repented with you and do not transgress. He is watcher over what you do.
11113 And you shall not lean towards those who have wronged else you will incur the Fire; and you will not have besides God any allies, and you will not be victorious.
11114 And you shall perform the salaat at the two edges of the day, and at the near parts of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
11115 And be patient, for God does not waste the reward of the good doers.The addressees of these verses seems to be all muslims, and not just the believers.
Peace
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peace tanveer,
...does it then matter what the difference is between muslim and mumin and what salaat means in "aqimi al-salaat" as far as this current discussion is concerned ?
Yes, as I hope to show later.
In my understanding, mumins are subset of muslims and the salaat in "aqimi al-salaat" as mentioned in the context of muslims and mumins and 2014 is a process by which a muslim/mumin connects with or turns towards The God at specific times by remembring and glorifying Him by reciting from al-qur'aan in a moderate tone and humbly submitting to Him.
This is where we have a different understanding. I see muslimeen as having nothing to do with 'al quran' thus if they "aqimi al-salaat" its nothing to do with 'al quran', thus there is no regular/timed slw for them.
If I say uphold/establish the salat/bond to a muslim (monotheist) it would mean a different thing than to a mumin (trustful). That is why the addressee and context is important and can change the application (not the meaning), as in chapter 9 when it is said to the mushrikeen/polytheists.
And lastly, based on the evidence you presented I cannot conclude the timed/regular slw is for muslimeen as well as mumineen.
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
This is where we have a different understanding. I see muslimeen as having nothing to do with 'al quran' thus if they "aqimi al-salaat" its nothing to do with 'al quran', thus there is no regular/timed slw for them.
2185 kills this argument
2185 full moon of the scorching heat is when the qur'aan was revealed as a guide to THE PEOPLE and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion.
As we can clearly see, according to this verse, al-qur'aan was revealed as a guide to ALL the people (al-naas) and unless "muslimeen" are not included in people, muslimeen have everything to do with al-qur'aan.
Al-qur'aan is for all people. If someone is on an island or a jungle all ones life and never gets the message of al-qur'aan then that person will have the excuse of not submitting to the message. However, once the message/guidance is delivered to someone, and that person reads it or hears it, then it becomes the choice of that person to either submit to it or reject it. Of course there is no compulsion, so one has the choice to reject it.
11111-11115 is clearly addressed to ALL people which automatically includes both muslimeen and mumineen as its addressees. The God wants ALL people to uphold the salaat at specific times according to 11114 and once someone hears this command from The God, one can either submit to it or reject it. When one submits to it, one becomes a muslim/submitter to that commandment and when one rejects such a clear command to uphold the salaat at specific times, one becomes a rejecter of that commandment in my understanding.
You will have a point only if everywhere the timed salaat is mentioned in al-qur'aan it is addressed only to the believers/mumineen. 1778 and 2458 indeed are addressed to mumineen. 11114, however is not addressed only to mumineen and thus kills your argument in combination with 2185.
Tanveer
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Peace,
I agree with Tanveer that it is for ALL muslims, as my conclusions on the meaning of Salaat are
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Following the Divine commandments, coming from the following closely to gain the best position as a horse that is second in a race and is catching up on the first horse. Where Aqimussallat means establish the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands. As the Divine commands as given in the Quran will create the best position on earth and the next life.
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Prayer, as in contact and bond, where Aqimasallat means establish the prayer(of congregation).
These are the 2 main meanings, next to some other meanings as Obligation, Allegiance, Duties, Following. I don't believe there is one fixed meaning for Salat in the Quran, and in some verses it even means several things as for example
- Say, "All my duties to the Divine System, my commitment, devotion and my prayer(=meanings of salat), the ways to discharge them, my living and my dying are for Allah alone, the Lord of the Worlds.
So when approaching salat as in the first meaning i gave above, following the Divine commands closely, they for sure are obliged for EVERY muslim.
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Peace,
Then i must say you have misunderstood the Quran. The Quran doesn't give a personal 'religion'. It gives a system that is meant to rule a state, so government is deeply involved in this. And no, it is not the people who saw the Quran as divine who corrupted it. It are the people who saw other writings, the hadiths, as divine, those were the corruptors.
And no, then he would not be a muslim, as the term is used on somebody who peacefully submits to the Divine Will, and thus also acknowledges a Divine Will and the Quran as having Divine origins. Coinciding behaviour is not enough to be a 'muslim', it is a whole package. Small deviations is not what i meant, going willingly as a nation against the Divine Will is what i meant through majority rule.
Alcohol is a drug, and is accepted by the majority, and certainly in Norway. I know norwegians like a drink )
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peace tanveer, all,
2185 does not kill anything, in fact I'm even surprised you said that. Of course 'al quran' was revealed to the people (i.e. for every person on earth), but that doesn't mean everyone follows it.
4914 clearly differentiates between muslim & mumin. One is muslim, then mumin, it is a progression. What is the progression?
muslim = monotheist (one does not need 'al quran' to come to this realisation). This is testified to by 'al quran' itself where many are called "muslim" when 'al quran' did not exist. This by itself refutes your argument that somehow being a "muslim" is tied to upholding/following 'al quran'.
This is an important point. The following article discusses this point well
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/mumin.htmYou will have a point only if everywhere the timed salaat is mentioned in al-qur'aan it is addressed only to the believers/mumineen. 1778 and 2458 indeed are addressed to mumineen. 11114, however is not addressed only to mumineen and thus kills your argument in combination with 2185.
No. Your above point is only valid if your evidence addressed muslimeen or all people. It does not. I repeat, one cannot draw your conclusion based on the evidence presented.
Wakas
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peace arnold,
And no, then he would not be a muslim, as the term is used on somebody who peacefully submits to the Divine Will, and thus also acknowledges a Divine Will and the Quran as having Divine origins.
(emphasis mine)
Please present your evidence for the underlined part.
Wakas
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Peace,
What i understood till now, is that a Muslim is already inclined to following the Divine Laws of Moral and Nature like for example Luqman in sura 31, and that a Muslim will recognize a revelation of Allah when confronted with it and contemplating on it like for example the people of earlier Revelations in 17107-108, and is thus one who wants to follow it. A mumin is one who doing the following of the revelation, salat. So a Muslim is implied to do salat, following the Revelation, and when doing so becoming a Mumin.
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peace arnold,
I agree with elements of your post
What i understood till now, is that a Muslim is already inclined to following the Divine Laws of Moral and Nature like for example Luqman in sura 31,...
If you mean divine laws inherent in moral and nature, that sounds ok, see 3030 for example.
...and that a Muslim will recognize a revelation of Allah when confronted with it...
The people of 4914 were obviously present when 'al quran' was present but were still NOT mumineen.
A mumin is one who doing the following of the revelation...
I agree. mumin is one who trusts. Trusts in what? What God has sent them 'al quran'. Thus, since the timed/regular slw can only be found in 'al quran' it is only addressed to the mumineen which makes sense.
So a Muslim is implied to do salat...
Yes, but NOT the regular/timed slw which is tied to 'al quran', just the general meaning of uphold/establish the "bond".
Let me put it this way 'al quran' has already proved that "aqimi al-salaat" means a different application to mushrikeen/polytheists (see here), thus why is it so hard to accept it means a different thing to a muslim and a different thing to a mumin?
Please note, when I say it means a different thing, I only mean in application, not the meaning. The meaning always is "uphold/establish the bond".
Wakas
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Peace,
I clearly said that a muslim will recognize a Revelation and wants to follow it to BECOME a Mumin. The timed SLW is connected with the congregation SLW 4102-103. I do believe SLW has different applications throughout the Quran, as context can sometimes override the cross-reference meaning. I don't really agree with the word 'bond'. I do agree with 'allegiance' in sura 9 which you showed perfectly. What i have understood till now, i agree more with Parwez that the main meaning of SLW is 'following closely' and thus 'Following the Divine Commands closely to remain attached with the Divine Laws/Will' and were AqimaSLW means 'Establish that (the System) where the Divine Commands are followed closely'. This being the main cross-reference meaning, next to that i have found around 7 other meanings throughout the Quran which are created through context of the verses. So a indeed a Mumin would do the SLW and a Muslim would want to do it.
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peace,
I clearly said that a muslim will recognize a Revelation and wants to follow it to BECOME a Mumin.
The above only holds if they are exposed to a Revelation, what if they are not? Can they still be muslim according to you?
So a indeed a Mumin would do the SLW and a Muslim would want to do it.
But you said originally that slw is for both? Do you mean the regular/timed slw? So your statement should read
So a indeed a Mumin would do the regular/timed SLW and a Muslim would want to do it.
?
Please clarify, thanks.
Wakas
ps - I simply choose "bond" for better readability, slw literally means "go/turn towards in a close/positive manner".
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peace,
The above only holds if they are exposed to a Revelation, what if they are not? Can they still be muslim according to you?
A Muslim is someone who follows the Laws of morality, logic and Nature as closely as is possible for him/her, and when confronted with a true Revelation, when studying and pondering over it, will accept it completely. So even if they never will encounter a true Revelation, they will still be Muslim. So the attitude of a Muslim is not directly formed by a Revelation, but when confronted with it, will incline to it and not reject it.
Nadeem asked me if a person could be a Muslim now, and also reject the Quran at the same time, and to that i clearly say no...
quote author=Wakas link=topic=7066.msg106939#msg106939 date=1162736574]
But you said originally that slw is for both? Do you mean the regular/timed slw? So your statement should readSo a indeed a Mumin would do the regular/timed SLW and a Muslim would want to do it. ?
SLW must be performed by a Mumin to STAY a Mumin, and a Muslim must perform it to BECOME a Mumin. So for a Mumin it is to uphold the position and for a Muslim it is to create the position. So in this way it for both to perform.
Peace bro...
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peace,
So even if they never will encounter a true Revelation, they will still be Muslim.
I agree. Therefore by default a muslim does not necassarily have to be engaged in the regular/tmed slw to be a muslim, as this instruction can only be found in a revelation. This is also my position.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you all,
I havent read the responses but just responding to the titlke of the thread, "salaat" is not just for a "sect" of humanity, "salaat" is for all of humanity. Salaat is always going on too, but most people are unaware of it and therefore dont take control of it, that let it happen by itself.
(1074) So regret to the "musalleena"
(1075) Those whom they are about their "salatihim" negligent/inattentive .
The nafs(spirit) is liek a garden, if you are not planting the seeds and cultivating your garden, weeds will still grwo, or another farmer wil use your garden.
