Bacon on my cheeseburger
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http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=2074.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4347.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4031.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4171.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4277.0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4172.0
There are more threads if one wishes to search for them.
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Maybe we should drink blood becouse maybe, just maybe we shouldnt take it literally, or eat dead animals or....Maybe not killing people is not meant to be taken literally....
From thousand and thousands of animals that live on Earth we are asked not to eat just one of them, just one - PIG. You can eat anything else you like just don't eat pig, and yet we try to find a way to bypass that order.I wonder what would your answer be if asked by GOD, why did you eat the only animal meat I asked you not to.
Sometimes you people sound like lawyers. rotfl
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^I'm a law student -[
Alright BuDaddy, nice story. But it just doesn't cut it. You state that the Quran is complete, but in the same breath, you also say that it doesnt have everything we need to make a perfect system. You're wrong. Allah does give clear right and wrong. Read the following FULL verses. He is CLEARLY talking to those who believe not to be willfully disobedient or transgress against Him. Yet, you choose to take this non-literal? We can't pick and choose what is clear and what is not.
2172 O ye who believe!
Eat of the good things
The we have provided for you
And be grateful to Aallah
If it is Him ye worship2173 He hath only forbidden you
Dead meat and
blood
and the flesh of swine
and that on which
Any other name hath been invoked
besides that of Allah
But if one is forced by necessity
without willful disobedience,
Nor transgressing due limits
then it is guiltless
For Allah is oft-forgiving,
Most MercifulAllah does not state whether this is a prohibition with limits. You just can't eat pig. And that includes bacon, my friend.
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Peace!
If the message is summed up in this one ayat "There is no compulsion in the religion; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God; then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower. (2256)" then why did Allah need to reveal everything else?
Such a big book to with so many lines to say 'just allegorical'?
How do I make sure whether the Ayat you referred to, viz., "He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others that are allegorical. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is allegorical from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God; and those who are well founded in knowledge, they Say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And none will remember except the people of understanding. (37)"
Is it to be taken literally? If so, on what basis?
If Allah would mean just this Ayat and all the characteristics you mentioned about the Straight Path, then why reveal so many other Ayat? To guide only people 1400 years ago? Then 1400 years from now the level and standards of Morality would change, for example, today, most people think there is nothing wrong in seeing or being a girl with a mini skirt on - no modesty!
Please take a look at the ayat you quoted - especially the part "Whoever rejects evil" (2256), how do we define evil? Wearing a miniskirt is not 'evil' for a model, but it is 'evil' for me and my wife. If Allah leaves 'evil' to our random guesses, likes, concensus etc., then the Quran cannot be the 'Furqan' (the criterion) and if it is so, then in what sense? Also, it would make the Quran very unclear, but the Quran says that it is clear.
There are too many things in discussion here. Instead of putting all the points, I suggest that you study the Quran in Arabic, if not, then, though its kind of irritating to read it, please study the translation by Dr. Taqiud-din-Hilali and Dr. Muhsin Khan. They are staunch Sunni translators, but one good thing is that they leave the key words untranslated in their translation. For example, 22, "This is the Book (the Qur'?n), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaq?n."
He even retains words such as 'Fasiqun' and 'T?gh?t', which is the word that is translated as 'evil' in 2256. A study of this translation, does clarify a lot of things.
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Peace Tim,
thanks for sharing !
For some time now, after nearly 20 years of abstinence regarding pork, I'm reconsidering the question. Have not yet gotten back to egg and bacon though , but your article brought me further again.
So true, what is the essence of this scripture, and in what does not eating pork contribute to the betterment of oneself or society ?
elke
Wow, 20 yrs.
The truth be told, I actually have not eaten any pork. I put that in there as more of a joke, and to see the responce it would generate. While I don't have a problem with it, my wife does. So not eating pork is a small price to pay for peace.
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^I'm a law student -[
Alright BuDaddy, nice story. But it just doesn't cut it. You state that the Quran is complete, but in the same breath, you also say that it doesnt have everything we need to make a perfect system. You're wrong. Allah does give clear right and wrong. Read the following FULL verses. He is CLEARLY talking to those who believe not to be willfully disobedient or transgress against Him. Yet, you choose to take this non-literal? We can't pick and choose what is clear and what is not.
Peace Deena.
I'm not a lawyer, but I hire them from time to time. Although, you may say that sometimes I get hired to play the role of advocate. You need to go back and play "Devil's Advocate" to you own argument. Once you do that, my counter should become obvious. If this was biznass, your unthought out reply would have cost you client a lot of money.
Cheers
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Peace BuDaddy
Thank you for an excellent read on a beautiful Sunday morning D
I'm actually considering sending this article to my hard-core Sunni brother. Although I think some of your opinions towards the end would be too much for him to handle at this point ...
I agree with you on many points. However, how do we have a "deen" (way of life) if everything is not to be taken literally? And how do we reach the consensus you believe we all need to attain? If all the verses were allegorical, we'd still have just as many holes in people's interpretations.
I'd have to agree with Zenje that there are literal and allegorical meanings included in each verse.
Life is a journey for us. What I believed a sura meant when I was 20 is not the same as today. I think in there lies the beauty of the quran. You can't capture it in a still-frame photo and say that's what it is . Its meanings and nuances and grey areas grow as we grow. It all depends on what stage we're in as of now. Perhaps nobody will ever fully understand what the Quran is all about. And perhaps we weren't meant to in a lifetime. Maybe we are only measured by where we end up in this life journey - how far our jihad took us in understanding God's Truth. If that is the measurement, then I would say you're doing better than me ;D
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Peace BuDaddy,
You're a talented writer handshake
The only caveat I would add, and one that I currently abide to, is if an ayah in question is to be rendered as allegorical, then we must certainly identify the guidance the allegory points to. In the case of pork, I understand both sides of the argument, but I see no allegorical correlation. Yes, there is very little proof to support the fact that pork is "bad". But, lack of evidence does not equal evidence of lacking.
So, for me personally, when I've come to an understanding of, for argument's sake, 95% of the scripture and identified within it the essence and the allegory, I subsequently confirm to myself that the author is ceratinly divine. Thus, the remaining 5% that I cannot categorize as either essential or allegorical, I lean towards the literal as erring on the side of caution and infinitely greater wisdom than my own.
In short, I don't know why we can't eat pork. The fact is that pigs are certainly dirty scavenging animals, but so are many other sanctioned animals. So, that in itself is not a strong enough argument. The only alternatives left, imo, is either the meat is has not been studied enough(or perhaps studies have been subdued due to lobbying pressure) or the word "khanzeer" does not mean "pork". Neither stance is conclusive at this point, and I'm already used to not eating it, so I just don't eat it.
That's not to say that I believe this prohibition to be nearly as important as Sunnis make it out to be, and it does not add to the "essence".
Anyway, thanks for sharing your article.
Peace,
Tay -
Maybe we should drink blood becouse maybe, just maybe we shouldnt take it literally, or eat dead animals or....Maybe not killing people is not meant to be taken literally....
From thousand and thousands of animals that live on Earth we are asked not to eat just one of them, just one - PIG. You can eat anything else you like just don't eat pig, and yet we try to find a way to bypass that order.peace
I forgot I had posted on this thread.
The thing is, who's "order" are we following? why should we follow it? If the quran only forbids what is bad for us, and it's complete, why doesn't it prohibit the eating of other animals that will kill you instantly? It doesn't make sense.And BOOST, the quran says quite a few times that God's message is explained in parables. And just because verses aren't literal doesn't mean the quran isn't pointing toward a way of life that we should live.
And Tay pointed to a new possibility, that khanzeer doesn't mean "pork". Forgot that one.
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Peace Deena.
I'm not a lawyer, but I hire them from time to time. Although, you may say that sometimes I get hired to play the role of advocate. You need to go back and play "Devil's Advocate" to you own argument. Once you do that, my counter should become obvious. If this was biznass, your unthought out reply would have cost you client a lot of money.
Cheers
I'm not a lawyer, either. I havent even finished first year.
But does it even matter if your argument or my argument is obvious? At the end of the day, we stick to our convinctions regardless of how we came to it. This is why we're here at free minds, isn't it? I personally think that the Quran is 100% complete (based on the stated verses). It is clear that we need to stay away from those things unless we are forced to. Without willful disregard or transgression on our part. You're counter is should we take this literally? I think it's clear enough to be taken literally. YOu have your own views, I respect that. So I guess I can play the devil's advocate here to justify why I should eat bacon?? Not me, but you can go ahead and do that.
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At the end of the day, we stick to our convinctions regardless of how we came to it.
Nice catch Deena, I didn't want to mention this before, because I thought it would be too one-sided. In any case, I've seen members here use quran to convince others (and themselves) that homosexuality is allowed. If you want it bad enough, you can make it happen.PS - I hope the thread subject doesn't change to homosexuality now. )
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Peace be with you
Quote Budaddy
There is not a single verse (ayat) in the Qur?an that states the Prophet is to explain the Book
I agree with you that obey the messenger does not mean to imitate him on information compiled after 200 years. But how about the following verses?
2 129
"Our Lord! send amongst them an Apostle of their own who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom and sanctify them; for Thou art the Exalted in Might the Wise."
16 64
And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.
62 2
He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and Wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest,
I liked your writing and admire your efforts in search of knowledge but in your answer to Dion and Deena you have shown no difference from the sunni scholar in your artcle who distorts the Quraan knowingly or unknowingly and flee from the subject and the argument put forward.
It is easy to say every verse is not literal and hide inside the safety of allegorical. Saying most of the Quraan should not be taken literally is saying it is not real but its ?clear magic?. May be the Egyptian lady was not talking literally.
It doesn?t get simple than this. Adam was told not to eat from the tree but he disobeyed. Remember the consequences for Adam. The evil one deceived him. Sometimes some of
intentionally or unintentionally sell dreams to deceive others to commit acts prohibited by God. May Allah protect us .Also, from 37 ?? and those who are well founded in knowledge, they Say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And none will remember except the people of understanding.?
Maybe we are not people of understanding or at least maybe not still. So we must read and research the Quraan more. And believe and be righteous, so Allah might guide us and give us knowledge and wisdom to understand His revelations. Since any amount of knowledge and reading is not going to help unless if Allah guides us.
20 114
High above all is Allah the King the Truth! Be not in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to thee is completed but say "O my Lord! advance me in knowledge."
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Peace Tim,
thanks for sharing !
For some time now, after nearly 20 years of abstinence regarding pork, i'm reconsidering the question. Have not yet gotten back to egg and bacon though , but your article brought me further again.
So true, what is the essence of this scripture, and in what does not eating pork contribute to the betterment of oneself or society ?
elke
Elkes exemption clause to obeying commands of God
God, I will obey your commands only if it meets the criteria that it should ?contribute to the betterment of oneself or society?.
From when is God bound by man's commands
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The thing is, who's "order" are we following? why should we follow it? If the quran only forbids what is bad for us, and it's complete, why doesn't it prohibit the eating of other animals that will kill you instantly? It doesn't make sense.
Which animals will kill you instantly, if you eat them???
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Which animals will kill you instantly, if you eat them???
isn't it more fitting to a primary school kid asking that quistion?
And arn't there hundreds if not thousends of things if eaten will kill you???
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Salaams Br.
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isn't it more fitting to a primary school kid asking that quistion?
True! rotfl
And arn't there hundreds if not thousends of things if eaten will kill you???
Another childish answer.
Please name one, I know that there are some I just couldn't think of any yet.
I know some mushrooms will kill you if eaten, but I cant think of any animal. -
Peace. I'm thinking maybe the "not eating pork" command is not literal.
I mean, there aren't any proven ill effects of pork that aren't true of other foods that the quran never mentions. And why doesn't the quran ever mention the stuff that will kill you if you eat it? there are two possibilities-
either the quran is imperfect, and the pork thing comes from the writer's bias or bad knowledge. Or it's just that at the time and place, eating pork wasn't the best thing. But again, why not mention other things?
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it is not supposed to be taken literally and we should look for a deeper meaning. Maybe it means something else.
Phoenix1
I fully agree with Dion's concise yet profound response
"Maybe we should drink blood because maybe, just maybe we shouldn't take it literally, or eat dead animals or....Maybe not killing people is not meant to be taken literally.... From thousand and thousands of animals that live on Earth we are asked not to eat just one of them, just one - PIG. You can eat anything else you like just don't eat pig, and yet we try to find a way to bypass that order. I wonder what would your answer be if asked by GOD, why did you eat the only animal meat I asked you not to. Sometimes you people sound like lawyers. "
Pigs generate seven times, yes SEVEN TIMES more waste than other farm animals. If you search, you will find that pig farms are polluting ground water and inflicting great environmental damage to nearby towns. Regardless of this, regardless of whether I can learn all the reasons for such a prohibition, as a submitter to God, I submit to his order without hesitation.
I understand why Tim Owel, a convert through marriage, who so far failed to pass the prophetic test mentioned in 7430-31, might just want to go back to his old habits, while also pretending to be a Muslim. In "Bacon on my cheeseburger The road to an epiphany" He appears to have no trust or respect to the word of God; and he appears to be ready to invalidate any divine commandment that contradicts his taste buds, his wishful thinking, his cravings, his conformity with others, or his culture. Instead of respecting God's will, he expects God to respect his whim and desires.
I also understand why those who have never eaten pork, might wish to try it. I fear that the reason why some might crave eating pork, is their great inferiority complex towards the Christian West. Perhaps, they think that if they just started eating pork and consuming beer and wine, they would suddenly join the "civilized" nations. Overwhelmed by the technological superiority of the West and its cunning propaganda and military machine, I believe that some monkey-natured people would even like to justify eating S..T were the Christians eating it. No wonder, God informs us that some communities were turned to pigs and monkeys. This is indeed a prophetic Quranic metaphor.
Peace,
Edip -
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Warner
i never said it was an exemption clause - but to tell the truth, i might prefer people that do good around them while may be eating pork to those many that live according to what they think are coranic principles - as long as it is not eating pork, not touching alcohol - but when it comes to help other people there is nothing there...
god knows best but if i pretended to think differently, i'd be just another hypocrit...
peace elke