Previous Revelations also in Arabic Language

Fahad1

Hello Fahad,

Walaqad naAAlamu annahum yaqooloona innamayuAAallimuhu basharun lisanu allathee yulhidoonailayhi aAAjamiyyun wahatha lisanun AAarabiyyunmubeenun

We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

New Trans

And indeed We know that they say (it is) only who teaches him a human being the tongue (of) he whom they refer to him (as) foreign and this tongue(language) uncorrupted clear.

Two questions for you

How does "foreign" become the opposite of "uncorrupted"?
Are all foreign languages corrupted?

The rest of your post is simerlarly contestable.

I'd like to see how.

Thanks though.

No problem.

unknownuser

Salaams Fahad,

4144
Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?"?????..

So all the books that we have in English aren?t explained in detail?????????????????????

Has anybody in his right mind sent a message in a language other then the language of the people the message is for??????????????

What are you making God into ??????

Shame on people who accept such nonsense Br.

And I will leave you to find the answer to your question yourself.

4144
Should be ? I think something like

Had we made its verses abstruse/ imperfect/ difficult to understand, they would have said why not are explained in detail its verses so abstruse yet such fine accent ????

My last post on this topic - i will let samia handle the rest, she is good.

Gods Blessings on all.

phoenix1

peace
I think I agree with Samia and Simple. I don't know squat about arabic, but their understanding is more logical, by far.
And fahad, you might wanna change your avatar since Shoaib isn't going to be playing cricket anymore.

Fahad1

Salaam Fahad[

OK. Let's do this "hair splitting"

Uttarance could be a word, a phrase or a sentence, or even a non comprehemsive speech. It is the equivalent to "nabasa; naTaqa )
qawl is more of saying. It is to utter meaningful speach

"mubeen" is an active participle like "muf3il" (verbs of the form IV), equivalent of "doer" for the form I; so it can't mean clear. Literally it means "explainer", "clarifier" or that which explains and clarifies.
"mufassal" is detailed,; tailored.

clear wording/language that explains everything!!

Several similar adjectives which could be translated into one adjective is quite common in Arabic. The same goes in the opposite way.
How would you translate "al fuqaraa'u wal masaakeen" 960, in two words (plus "and&quot?
How do you translate (not understand) mubath-thiruun and musrifuun ?
How would you translate "waaDiH )?

Those words look as if they are the same, yet there is a slight difference that cannot be caught by the translation. Same thing with the words clear; explained and detailed, which could be expressed in much more Arabic words; yet when you come to translate them, you will find yourself limited in words. The same could apply on the opposite direction.

Three what? Languages? This is what I am saying One language. An arabic. You are saying One language, the Arabic.
Revaelations? No, the Quran doesn't; you do (look at the title of the thread) previous revelations, means at least two; plus the present one= at least three revelations

Each language answers the needs of its people. Arabic language is detailed in different names and adjectives of a camel; English is more detailed in snow and its particles, and in computer science.

How do you understand this Arabic without crookedness? Was there Arabic with crookedness and Arabic without?

Oh yes. There can be Arabic with crookedness. That?s why the Quran confirms Arabic language(4612). So the Quranic Arabic is not crooked.

Or are you saying that Arabic cannot contain crookedness?

But how do you understand this Clear without crookedness? Was there ?clear? with crookedness and ?clear? without?

It proves that ?Arabic? cannot mean ?clear/uncorrupted? or any similar meaning.

That settles it.

Fahad1

Salam Simple.

Salaams Fahad,

4144
Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?"?????..

So all the books that we have in English aren?t explained in detail?????????????????????

You yourself are also implying that all foreign languages are corrupted, remember?

I simply asked you
Two questions for you

How does "foreign" become the opposite of "uncorrupted"?
Are all foreign languages corrupted?

You sound as if it has hurt your feelings or something.

Has anybody in his right mind sent a message in a language other then the language of the people the message is for??????????????

The messenger is sent in the language of the people, not the book. Or are you saying that the Urdu speaking people should receive the Quran in Urdu, the language of those people?

What are you making God into ??????

What do you think I am making God into? And why?

And by the way, what you make God into? A doctor...
...

Shame on people who accept such nonsense Br.

Does 'nonsense' include your "Allah=doctor" theory?

And I will leave you to find the answer to your question yourself.

Oh, why?! Why should I find the answer? Shouldn't you give me the answer since you made the claim that "arabic" means "uncorrupted"?

My last post on this topic

I was already expecting it to be your last post on this thread, anyway. I can see it coming, when I ask you a simple question about your claims.

i will let samia handle the rest, she is good.

Right. She is good. I'll have to be more careful while discussing with her in the future.

Gods Blessings on all.

God's blessings on you too.

Fahad1

peace
I think I agree with Samia and Simple. I don't know squat about arabic, but their understanding is more logical, by far.
And fahad, you might wanna change your avatar since Shoaib isn't going to be playing cricket anymore.

Peace Phoenix1.

Since Simple is gone, why don't you take his place, and answer the questions he does not want to answer.

phoenix1

peace Fahad,
although I'm sure Simple will address your questions, I'll give you my thoughts on this.
The thing is, it makes no sense for all books to be in arabic. People who live outside Arabia do not speak it.
And, if arabic is a name of a language, and taking the above into consideration, 4144 becomes useless. Because the people wouldn't understand it.

And I think what Simple was saying by pointing was that "arabic" means "clear" in 4144. If you look at it that way, it's not talking about languages at all, but about the quran's words being clear.

unknownuser

Salaams fahad,

although i had given upanyway here i will do it again
Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds
With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-
To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.
In language/speech uncorrupted plain.
Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.
Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)?
Had We revealed it to any of the foreigners,
And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.
Thus have We caused it to enter the hearts of the sinners.

When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger" but most of them understand not.
Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is faultless/arabic, pure and clear.

Look at the two sections above

Although, Allah has said, this revelation has come to other peoples before this .
This isn?t that but a new revelation inspired to him.
And they think it is a forgery by one from the other peoples- the jews.

And Allah is saying if it was a forgery they would now it as it wouldn?t be so clear but would have been corrupted some what due to its forgery or rather translation.

4144
Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) foreign and (a Messenger an Arab?"?????..

As Allah is talking about the ambiguity that would be involved in the translation process - according to the above few ayah's.

Arabic can be the name of the language -may be.
But then the message can only be for arabs i think.

So is arabic a language or as samia said?

God?s Blessings on us.

Samia

Salaam Fahad

But how do you understand this Clear without crookedness? Was there ?clear? with crookedness and ?clear? without?

If we say Arabic (language) without crookedness, a question will arise is there an Arabic language with crookedness? So, two Arabic languages, with and without?

But if we say arabic without crookedness (here arabic is mere adjective), such a question wont arise. This kind of expression is common in Arabic. We say "kamel min ghair neqSaan complete without diminution" and no one would say is there completeness with diminution!!

In the Quran there are similar expressions. here are some

11109
"..We shall repay them in full without (ghair) diminution"
16115
"..but who is forced without (ghair) wilful disobedience.."
2231
"submitting to none but God not (ghair) associating partners"

..And "a plain speech without crookedness"

NB a'jami does not mean foreign. It means someone who speaks in a non comprehensible manner, irrespective of their language (lisaanul 'arab).

Fahad1

peace Phoenix.

peace Fahad,
although I'm sure Simple will address your questions, I'll give you my thoughts on this.
The thing is, it makes no sense for all books to be in arabic. People who live outside Arabia do not speak it.

So people living outside Arabia cannot understand the Quran? Are all members of this Quranic forum from inside Arabia?

Can people outside Arabia not learn Arabic language? And Arabs cannot learn foreign languages?

The Quran uses only about 2000 words, I think, which are repeated over and over. Is it so difficult for people to learn just 2000 words? C'mon! Many people can speak many languages! What are just 2000 words?!

And, if arabic is a name of a language, and taking the above into consideration, 4144 becomes useless. Because the people wouldn't understand it.

How could you make sense of verse 4144? You live outside Arabia, right. You just cannot understand it.(thats what you say)

And what language do you think that the Quran is in? English? Urdu? or some other language? ... Arabic maybe?

Fahad1

Salam Samia.

Salaam Fahad

If we say Arabic (language) without crookedness, a question will arise is there an Arabic language with crookedness? So, two Arabic languages, with and without?

Yes, two Arabic languages, with and without crookedness.

But the 'Quranic Arabic', the one confirmed by the Quran(4612), does not contains crookedness.

46/12 ...and this book confirms lisaanan arabiyan/Arabic language...

Because the Quran, being 'kitabun mubeen'(2775-76), confirms 'lisaanan arabiyan', so its language is 'lisaanun arabiyun mubeen', which is the 'Arabic without crookedness'.

That's how I understand it.

phoenix1

So people living outside Arabia cannot understand the Quran? Are all members of this Quranic forum from inside Arabia?

Can people outside Arabia not learn Arabic language? And Arabs cannot learn foreign languages?

The Quran uses only about 2000 words, I think, which are repeated over and over. Is it so difficult for people to learn just 2000 words? C'mon! Many people can speak many languages! What are just 2000 words?!

peace
The Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. People in that age didn't have the internet, nor did they have books or teachers teaching them arabic.
And even today, it is very hard for anyone to understand arabic completely. And if you don't understand it completely, it's very easy to make wrong conclusions.

But why is Arabic so important to you? can't a book in english be just as clear? or a book in Spanish?

I'd think God would come up with a better plan than what you're suggesting.
Or maybe the quran is just an arabic book written by an enlightened individual and there's nothing else to it.

phoenix1

Yes, two Arabic languages, with and without crookedness.

But the 'Quranic Arabic', the one confirmed by the Quran(4612), does not contains crookedness.

46/12 ...and this book confirms lisaanan arabiyan/Arabic language...

Because the Quran, being 'kitabun mubeen'(2775-76), confirms 'lisaanan arabiyan', so its language is 'lisaanun arabiyun mubeen', which is the 'Arabic without crookedness'.

That's how I understand it.

Again, why would the quran use a different language????
and you can't prove that the quranic language is without crookedness. It's quite easy to misinterpret it, or interpret it in a bad way. The quran's being used to promote violence against innocents, did you know that?
But i still don't get why God wouldn't use the language of the locals. Why would God make people learn a completely different language just to tell them that it confirms the truths they already possess?

unknownuser

Salaams fahad,

although i had given upanyway here i will do it again
Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds
With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-
To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.
In Arabic uncorrupted plain.
Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.
Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)?
Had We revealed it to any of the foreigners,
And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.
Thus have We caused it to enter the hearts of the sinners.

When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger" but most of them understand not.
Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is faultless/arabic, pure and clear.

Look at the two sections above

Although, Allah has said, this revelation has come to other peoples before this .
This isn?t that but a new revelation inspired to him.
And they think it is a forgery by one from the other peoples- the jews.

And Allah is saying if it was a forgery they would now it as it wouldn?t be so clear but would have been corrupted some what due to its forgery or rather translation.

4144
Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) foreign and (a Messenger an Arab?"?????..

As Allah is talking about the ambiguity that would be involved in the translation process - according to the above few ayah's.

Salaams Fahad ,

Fahad look at what Allah is talking about.

He is talking about the corruption/ambiguity that creeps into the language when you translate the words

from one language into another.

When you translate you do corrupt it to a certain extent its flow doesn't remain.

Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples

and here Allah is talking about the message which came to others before , and not the book in arabic to others.

WHETHER ARABIC BE A LANGUAGE OR MEANS CLEAR SPEECH , I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS.

LANGUAGES ARE FOR COMMUNICATION and whether we all start using sign languages if they where better it wouldn't matter as long as we where more obedient to Allah - and that is why we have to do talk fasting at times when we go off track.

God Bless.

Samia

Salaam Fahad

That's how I understand it.

I do respect that. Can I say how I understand it? Here is how

How could a language be "with crookedness"? Can you please give me an example? Better with reference to Arabic.

'lisaanun arabiyun mubeen', which is the 'Arabic without crookedness'

Since "mubeen" is an active participle, it means clarifying, not clear. Hence 'arabiyun mubeen' means clear and clarifying.

Fahad1

I do respect that. Can I say how I understand it? Here is how

How could a language be "with crookedness"? Can you please give me an example? Better with reference to Arabic.

One good example would be "mubeen" meaning "clarifying". Just check out the usage of "mubeen" in these five verses to see whether the understood meaning of the word in Arabic language can be crooked or not

2208 , 3164, 5110, 7107, 2818

But the Quranic Arabic cannot be crooked. That is why it is called 'lisaanun arabiyun mubeen/ clear Arabic language', as opposed to the crooked one.

'lisaanun arabiyun mubeen', which is the 'Arabic without crookedness'

Since "mubeen" is an active participle, it means clarifying, not clear. Hence 'arabiyun mubeen' means clear and clarifying.

I did not mean that 'lisaanun arabiyun mubeen' translates into 'Arabic without crookedness'. I meant that the lisaanun arabiyun mubeen is the one without crookedness.

Fahad1

So people living outside Arabia cannot understand the Quran? Are all members of this Quranic forum from inside Arabia?

Can people outside Arabia not learn Arabic language? And Arabs cannot learn foreign languages?

The Quran uses only about 2000 words, I think, which are repeated over and over. Is it so difficult for people to learn just 2000 words? C'mon! Many people can speak many languages! What are just 2000 words?!

peace
The Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. People in that age didn't have the internet, nor did they have books or teachers teaching them arabic.

You don't get it. You don't have to learn complete Arabic. You only have learn the Quran. And the Quran consists of just about 2000 words, repeated over and over. It doesn't get much easier than that. Unless you are unwilling to learn. Do you get it now? Tell me.

And even today, it is very hard for anyone to understand arabic completely.

Who is asking you to understand Arabic completely?

And if you don't understand it completely, it's very easy to make wrong conclusions.

No, because the Quran does not use all the Arabic out there. Can you understand it? Tell me please.

But why is Arabic so important to you?

Is that what we are discussing? Tell me.

can't a book in english be just as clear? or a book in Spanish?

Which language is clear according to the Quran?

I'd think God would come up with a better plan than what you're suggesting.

What is God's plan according to the Quran?

Or maybe the quran is just an arabic book written by an enlightened individual and there's nothing else to it.

But Arabic, nevertheless.

And I was expecting you to say this. You just have to say this in almost every other thread, no-matter how irrelevant to the topic it may be.

phoenix1

peace Fahad,
sorry, but it is relevant. Because from what you are saying, it seems that you think that God chose arabic as a special language in which God would reveal it's message. And I'm saying that maybe God didn't choose. Maybe the people who wrote those books chose. Or maybe they didn't choose at all, maybe that's the only language they knew. The fact is that how we view the quran affects our understanding of it. So it's important, and relevant to pretty much everything. We need to make sure that we view the quran in the manner it should be viewed in.

About learning arabic. It is said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You can't memorize the meanings of 2000 words (or even 200000) and expect to make sense out of them. There are the words, then there is the grammar (to put together the words). Unless you have a good basis in grammer, knowing the meanings of words is useless. You can't just learn a little bit and expect to understand a whole book with it. Hope you understand my point, Fahad.
And if you've analyzed arabic of the quran based on memorization of it's words' meanings, then I don't know if I can trust your translations that much.

Which language is clear according to the quran?
well, I think the whole debate on this thread is whether the quran singles out one language or not. You are saying it does, and Samia is saying it doesn't. If we disregard the quran for a moment, every language can be clear. Maybe if you try inventing a new language that hasn't had the time to develop yet, maybe that would be unclear. But languages like english and spanish and urdu that have gone through centuries of evolution can be just as clear as arabic.

What is God's plan?
I don't know what God's plan is. But I'm not too sure that it involves the arabic language.

Fahad1

Again, why would the quran use a different language????

Why would the Quran??!! The question should be DOES the Quran use a different language? The answer is YES it does. Or do you think the Quran uses your local language? Can't you just see that the Quran is in Arabic?! It is so simple! Tell me.

and you can't prove that the quranic language is without crookedness.

Here, we prove our point by quoting from the Quran. And I just did that.

But i still don't get why God wouldn't use the language of the locals.

We were not discussing the the "why".

Why would God make people learn a completely different language just to tell them that it confirms the truths they already possess?

He does not.

Fahad1

Phoenix, I had also asked you

The thing is, it makes no sense for all books to be in arabic. People who live outside Arabia do not speak it.

And, if arabic is a name of a language, and taking the above into consideration, 4144 becomes useless. Because the people wouldn't understand it.

How could you make sense of verse 4144? You live outside Arabia, right. You just cannot understand it.(thats what you say)

And what language do you think that the Quran is in? English? Urdu? or some other language? ... Arabic maybe?