Salaat & zakaat is for ALL muslims, not just the believers.
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Peace,
What i understood till now, is that a Muslim is already inclined to following the Divine Laws of Moral and Nature like for example Luqman in sura 31, and that a Muslim will recognize a revelation of Allah when confronted with it and contemplating on it like for example the people of earlier Revelations in 17107-108, and is thus one who wants to follow it. A mumin is one who doing the following of the revelation, salat. So a Muslim is implied to do salat, following the Revelation, and when doing so becoming a Mumin.
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peace arnold,
I agree with elements of your post
What i understood till now, is that a Muslim is already inclined to following the Divine Laws of Moral and Nature like for example Luqman in sura 31,...
If you mean divine laws inherent in moral and nature, that sounds ok, see 3030 for example.
...and that a Muslim will recognize a revelation of Allah when confronted with it...
The people of 4914 were obviously present when 'al quran' was present but were still NOT mumineen.
A mumin is one who doing the following of the revelation...
I agree. mumin is one who trusts. Trusts in what? What God has sent them 'al quran'. Thus, since the timed/regular slw can only be found in 'al quran' it is only addressed to the mumineen which makes sense.
So a Muslim is implied to do salat...
Yes, but NOT the regular/timed slw which is tied to 'al quran', just the general meaning of uphold/establish the "bond".
Let me put it this way 'al quran' has already proved that "aqimi al-salaat" means a different application to mushrikeen/polytheists (see here), thus why is it so hard to accept it means a different thing to a muslim and a different thing to a mumin?
Please note, when I say it means a different thing, I only mean in application, not the meaning. The meaning always is "uphold/establish the bond".
Wakas
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Peace,
I clearly said that a muslim will recognize a Revelation and wants to follow it to BECOME a Mumin. The timed SLW is connected with the congregation SLW 4102-103. I do believe SLW has different applications throughout the Quran, as context can sometimes override the cross-reference meaning. I don't really agree with the word 'bond'. I do agree with 'allegiance' in sura 9 which you showed perfectly. What i have understood till now, i agree more with Parwez that the main meaning of SLW is 'following closely' and thus 'Following the Divine Commands closely to remain attached with the Divine Laws/Will' and were AqimaSLW means 'Establish that (the System) where the Divine Commands are followed closely'. This being the main cross-reference meaning, next to that i have found around 7 other meanings throughout the Quran which are created through context of the verses. So a indeed a Mumin would do the SLW and a Muslim would want to do it.
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peace,
I clearly said that a muslim will recognize a Revelation and wants to follow it to BECOME a Mumin.
The above only holds if they are exposed to a Revelation, what if they are not? Can they still be muslim according to you?
So a indeed a Mumin would do the SLW and a Muslim would want to do it.
But you said originally that slw is for both? Do you mean the regular/timed slw? So your statement should read
So a indeed a Mumin would do the regular/timed SLW and a Muslim would want to do it.
?
Please clarify, thanks.
Wakas
ps - I simply choose "bond" for better readability, slw literally means "go/turn towards in a close/positive manner".
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peace,
The above only holds if they are exposed to a Revelation, what if they are not? Can they still be muslim according to you?
A Muslim is someone who follows the Laws of morality, logic and Nature as closely as is possible for him/her, and when confronted with a true Revelation, when studying and pondering over it, will accept it completely. So even if they never will encounter a true Revelation, they will still be Muslim. So the attitude of a Muslim is not directly formed by a Revelation, but when confronted with it, will incline to it and not reject it.
Nadeem asked me if a person could be a Muslim now, and also reject the Quran at the same time, and to that i clearly say no...
quote author=Wakas link=topic=7066.msg106939#msg106939 date=1162736574]
But you said originally that slw is for both? Do you mean the regular/timed slw? So your statement should readSo a indeed a Mumin would do the regular/timed SLW and a Muslim would want to do it. ?
SLW must be performed by a Mumin to STAY a Mumin, and a Muslim must perform it to BECOME a Mumin. So for a Mumin it is to uphold the position and for a Muslim it is to create the position. So in this way it for both to perform.
Peace bro...
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peace,
So even if they never will encounter a true Revelation, they will still be Muslim.
I agree. Therefore by default a muslim does not necassarily have to be engaged in the regular/tmed slw to be a muslim, as this instruction can only be found in a revelation. This is also my position.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you all,
I havent read the responses but just responding to the titlke of the thread, "salaat" is not just for a "sect" of humanity, "salaat" is for all of humanity. Salaat is always going on too, but most people are unaware of it and therefore dont take control of it, that let it happen by itself.
(1074) So regret to the "musalleena"
(1075) Those whom they are about their "salatihim" negligent/inattentive .
The nafs(spirit) is liek a garden, if you are not planting the seeds and cultivating your garden, weeds will still grwo, or another farmer wil use your garden.
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Peace Wakas, all,
2185 does not kill anything, in fact I'm even surprised you said that. Of course 'al quran' was revealed to the people (i.e. for every person on earth), but that doesn't mean everyone follows it.
It doesn't mean everyone follows it because there is no compulsion; but a muslim (one who submits to The God's will) WILL FOLLOW IT AND SUBMIT TO IT, once the muslim is confronted by it and has verified it to be The God's true revelation. If the muslim does not follow it and does not submit to it, then by definition that person will not be a muslim anymore.
muslim = monotheist (one does not need 'al quran' to come to this realisation). This is testified to by 'al quran' itself where many are called "muslim" when 'al quran' did not exist.
I would revise this definition as
muslim = monotheist who when confronted by The God's true revelations (be it al-qur'aan or injeel or torah or suhuf-e-Ibraheem) submits to them and follows them closely.
For one to be a muslim, al-qur'aan does not necessarily have to exist; it could be any other true revelation of The God also. For example before al-qur'aan, in the time of Ibraheem, there was suhuf-e-Ibraheem, and as Ibraheem was a muslim, he submitted to The God's will as contained in suhuf-e-Ibraheem. In the time of Musa there was torah, and Musa or any other muslim at that time when confronted by The God's will as contained in the true original torah, submitted to it and followed it closely.
No. Your above point is only valid if your evidence addressed muslimeen or all people. It does not. I repeat, one cannot draw your conclusion based on the evidence presented.
11114 clearly addresses ALL PEOPLE (including muslims) and commands ALL PEOPLE (including muslims) to aqimi al-salaat at specific times. Thus the timed/regular salaat is enjoined upon ALL muslims. The muslims among all people, when confronted by this Divine commandment, will submit to it and uphold the timed/regular salaat. Those who do not uphold the timed/regular salaat even after confronted by 11114 and having verified it as the true revelation from The God, will not be submitting to The God's will anymore and thus by definition will not be muslims anymore.
The God has revealed His will and commandments at all times through various messengers. In the past when there was no al-qur'aan, there were other scriptures/books containing The God's true revelations sent to various messengers e.g. injeel, torah, zuboor, suhuf-e-Ibrahim etc. Al-qur'aan authenticates all previous scriptures and confirms them. Thus in the past there were muslims even when there was no al-qur'aan as they were submitting to The God's will contained in the other scriptures when confronted by them.
The people of 4914 were obviously present when 'al quran' was present but were still NOT mumineen.
Yes they were still not mumineen, but they were muslimeen and were submitting to The God's commandments. One of those commandments is in 11114, obviously addressed to them, and being muslimeen, they submitted to that commandment of upholding timed/regular salaat THEREBY BECOMING MUMINEEN (believers) when they did that.
I agree. mumin is one who trusts. Trusts in what? What God has sent them 'al quran'. Thus, since the timed/regular slw can only be found in 'al quran' it is only addressed to the mumineen which makes sense.
The underlined portion of the above quote contains two statements that are assumptions.
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Al-qur'aan authenticates and confirms the previous scriptures, thus how can you say with one hundred percent certainty that the previous scriptures did not contain the timed/regular salaat ?
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Timed/regular salaat is not addressed only to mumineen but is also addressed to ALL muslims as per 11114. Then once a muslim submits to this commandment and upholds the timed/regular salaat, he/she BECOMES a mumin. If that muslim does not submit to this general commandment, then that muslim is not a muslim (one who submits to The God's will) anymore.
Therefore by default a muslim does not necassarily have to be engaged in the regular/tmed slw to be a muslim, as this instruction can only be found in a revelation.
Wrong logic !! Once a muslim is confronted by The God's true revelation commanding upholding of regular/timed salaat (see 11114), then that muslim WILL submit to that commandment to BECOME a mumin, otherwise that person is not a muslim anymore.
The muslimeen are obligated to submit to all commandments, e.g. they avoid alcohol and gambling, they do not eat pork, they do not kill, they honor their parents etc. When the muslimeen submit to SOME of the commandments they BECOME mumineen e.g. timed/regular salaat, contributing towards betterment/zakaat etc. The muslimeen are obligated to submit to all commandments, some of those commandments keep them muslimeen and some of those commandments elevate them to the level of mumineen. ALL those commandments however are obligatory upon the muslimeen to uphold and follow including the commandment of 11114.
Thus upholding the timed/regular salaat is ENJOINED UPON and thus OBLIGATORY upon ALL muslims.
Peace
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peace brother tanveer, all,
For one to be a muslim, al-qur'aan does not necessarily have to exist; it could be any other true revelation of The God also. For example before al-qur'aan, in the time of Ibraheem, there was suhuf-e-Ibraheem, and as Ibraheem was a muslim, he submitted to The God's will as contained in suhuf-e-Ibraheem. In the time of Musa there was torah, and Musa or any other muslim at that time when confronted by The God's will as contained in the true original torah, submitted to it and followed it closely.
You seem to imply that a revelation is necessary for one to be muslim. You again imply this further down
Thus in the past there were muslims even when there was no al-qur'aan as they were submitting to The God's will contained in the other scriptures when confronted by them.
If so, 4153 & 3030 show that the truth exists out with revelation. Thus it is possible to find the truth and thus God WITHOUT a revelation. Lets be clear on this.
11114 is NOT addressed to all people. Please point out the specific word/evidence you are referring to. This is a simple request. If its an assumption, then please state so.
muslim = monotheist who when confronted by The God's true revelations (be it al-qur'aan or injeel or torah or suhuf-e-Ibraheem) submits to them and follows them closely.
Thus by default, if they are NOT confronted with revelation they can still be muslim. THUS revelation is not necessary for one to be muslim. It seems therefore, the point we are discussing is what happens when confronted with a revelation, with respect to the status of being muslim.
Yes they were still not mumineen, but they were muslimeen and were submitting to The God's commandments. One of those commandments is in 11114, obviously addressed to them, and being muslimeen, they submitted to that commandment of upholding timed/regular salaat THEREBY BECOMING MUMINEEN (believers) when they did that.
The part in red sounds a lot like an assumption. Anyways, your above statement results in a contradiction in your view.
On the one hand you say one is a muslim and if they are confronted with revelation they will accept it and become mumin. The addressees of 4914 were clearly muslimeen (as agreed upon by you) AND were in the presence of 'al quran' BUT were NOT mumineen. Thus, they were in the presence of a revelation BUT were NOT mumineen, yet they were still muslimeen! According to you they must accept revelation in order to become mumineen and if they do not accept it they are not only not mumineen they are no longer muslim when 4914 proves the opposite, i.e. they can still be muslimeen and be in the presence of a revelation and not fully accept it yet.
The only way you can get around this is by saying they are not mumineen yet (a crucial word), but then you have to admit that even though they have been "confronted" with revelation they dont have to accept it straight away, thus one can be muslim and still not wholly accept a revelation, e.g. al quran.
Do the conclusions in blue disprove your position or clarify it?
Wakas
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Peace brother Wakas, all,
A more careful examination of the qur'aanic evidence made me realize the one error in my previous post. I made the assumption that a muslim just by upholding timed/regular salaat alone becomes a mumin but according to the qur'aanic evidence that is not the case. Also, I would like to clarify that my post did not imply that a revelation is necessary for one to be a muslim. My position is that an already existing muslim when confronted by The God's revelations can REMAIN a muslim only by wholly submitting to those revelations. Thus
- A mumin is one who fulfills many criteria not just salaat alone, thus for a muslim to become a mumin, one has to fulfill ALL those criteria.
According to 4915, 82-4, 22-5, 2853-54, 2177, 4103, 2183, mumins (faithful, truthful, righteous, believers) have the following traits including all the traits of the muslims/submitters
a. They have faith and trust in The God
b. They have faith in the messengers
c. They have faith in the angels
d. They have faith in all The God's revelations
e. They have faith in the unseen
f. They have faith in the Last Day and certainty regarding the hereafter
g. They attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever
h. They counter evil works with good works
i. They strive with their lives and money in the way of The God
j. Their hearts tremble when The God is mentioned
k. Their faith is strengthened by hearing The God's revelations
l. They uphold the timed/regular salaat
m. They give to charity
n. They contribute to betterment/zakaat.
o. They fast for periods of time to establish patience
p. They free the slaves
q. They keep their word whenever they make a promise
r. They steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and warAny element missing from the above traits and they are not mumins. Thus a muslim/submitter who upholds the timed/regular salaat in addition to other commandments of The God but does not fast for the prescribed period of time every year cannot be considered to be at the level of a mumin.
- For an already existing muslim (prior to The God's revelations) to remain a muslim AFTER CONFRONTED BY COMMANDMENTS IN THE GOD'S REVELATIONS ADDRESSED TO THE PEOPLE, that muslim has to submit wholly to those commandments.
A submitter acknowledges One God, appreciates Him, does not set up partners with Him, and does good works (4133, 4615, 21108, 572). An already existing muslim/submitter prior to any revelation from The God, can remain a muslim only by submitting to and closely following The God's true revelations when confronted by them.
Thus it follows that an already existing muslim when confronted by the commandment to uphold the timed salaat as per 11114, will uphold the timed salaat to remain a muslim, but does not automatically become a mumin just by upholding the timed salaat without fulfilling all the other traits of a mumin outlined above.
This explains how the addressees of 4914 were clearly muslimeen AND were in the presence of "al-qur'aan" BUT were NOT mumineen.
Please remember that a muslim is NOT obligated to fast for a period of time every year, as the prescribed fasting is decreed only upon the mumineen/believers in al-qur'aan (2183). Thus a muslim who submits to all the other commandments in al-qur'aan, including the commandment to uphold timed/regular salaat per 11114, but does not fast for the prescribed period of time every year, will not attain the level of mumin and will remain a muslim.
Now the only question remains is whether 11114 is addressed to all the people. If one reads the whole chapter 11, one finds that it is generally addressed to all the people. Also when one reads from 11111 onwards it becomes very clear that the addressees are all the people.
11111 And to each your Lord will recompense their works. He is expert in what they do.
11112 So stand straight as you were commanded and those who repented with you and do not transgress. He is watcher over what you do.
11113 And you shall not lean towards those who have wronged else you will incur the Fire; and you will not have besides God any allies, and you will not be victorious.
11114 And you shall perform the salaat at the two edges of the day, and at the near parts of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
11115 And be patient, for God does not waste the reward of the good doers.Clearly the addressees of these verses are all the people, and not just the believers.
Peace
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peace brother Tanveer, all,
By quoting from 11111-115 you have proved my point. It does not address mankind (otherwise it would have used the Arabic word equivalent), and is addressing a specific group of people. For undisputable proof see 11112, in which it states "...and those who repented with you..." THUS proving beyond doubt these are specific addressees, as this in no way can be taken as a general statement to all of mankind!
Do you agree or not? If you agree, your point is disproven with the evidence you have presented thus far.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you,
Question, who are the messages from the God NOT for?
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Peace brother Wakas,
By quoting from 11111-115 you have proved my point. It does not address mankind (otherwise it would have used the Arabic word equivalent), and is addressing a specific group of people. For undisputable proof see 11112, in which it states "...and those who repented with you..." THUS proving beyond doubt these are specific addressees, as this in no way can be taken as a general statement to all of mankind!
OK, if it is not addressed to the entire mankind then it is certainly addressed to all muslimeen/submitters among mankind and not ONLY the mumineen/believers. If you disagree then please prove it from the context of 11114.
One thing that I am 100% sure is that the addressees of 11114 are not ONLY the mumineen as clear from the context. If it was addressed only to the believers, they would have been clearly mentioned as the addressees in the context of 11114. Even if it is not addressed to the entire mankind, it is certainly addressed to the muslimeen/submitters as the only people out of entire mankind who would submit to The God's revelation and commandment in 11114 are the muslimeen/submitters. This is conclusive proof that upholding the timed salaat is not only for mumineen/believers.
If you disagree then please tell us who exactly are the addressees of 11114 using qur'aanic proof/evidence.
Tanveer
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peace brother Tanveer,
If you disagree then please tell us who exactly are the addressees of 11114 using qur'aanic proof/evidence.
I have not studied it thoroughly. All I knew was that mankind were not the addressees, which has now been demonstrated and agreed upon.
I am not sure when I will get round to studying this, but lets be clear both mine and your position on who this sign is addressing is an assumption. I do feel the connection between 'al quran' and the regular/timed slw, and our discussion on 4914 proves my point, but I wouldn't say its conclusive yet without more structured evidence.
I am happy to leave it as is and return to it if I study it in the future or if you can show evidence in favour of your view.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you,
is the God forming a SECT by addressing only certain people? All verses are for all people, but not all people will trust in the message.
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Peace brother Wakas,
It seems that 11114 addresses "those who remember" (zakireen), thus also showing that because of the usage of "those who remember", the addressee cannot be only one person
11114 And you shall perform the salat during the two edges of the day, and the near parts of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
My preliminary research indicates that according to al-qur'aan, "those who remember" are "the people with/possessing understanding" (oolo al-albab)
2269 He grants wisdom to whom He chooses, and whoever is granted wisdom, has been given much good. Only those with understanding will remember.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God. And those who are well founded in knowledge say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
1319 Is one who knows that the truth has been sent down to you from your Lord like one who is blind? Only those with understanding will remember.
399 Is one better who is meditating during the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord? Say "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only those who possess understanding will remember.
So at least people who cannot understand due to a mental illness are excluded from the addressees of 11114 !
Peace
