Previous Revelations also in Arabic Language
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I do respect that. Can I say how I understand it? Here is how
How could a language be "with crookedness"? Can you please give me an example? Better with reference to Arabic.
One good example would be "mubeen" meaning "clarifying". Just check out the usage of "mubeen" in these five verses to see whether the understood meaning of the word in Arabic language can be crooked or not
2208 , 3164, 5110, 7107, 2818
But the Quranic Arabic cannot be crooked. That is why it is called 'lisaanun arabiyun mubeen/ clear Arabic language', as opposed to the crooked one.
'lisaanun arabiyun mubeen', which is the 'Arabic without crookedness'
Since "mubeen" is an active participle, it means clarifying, not clear. Hence 'arabiyun mubeen' means clear and clarifying.
I did not mean that 'lisaanun arabiyun mubeen' translates into 'Arabic without crookedness'. I meant that the lisaanun arabiyun mubeen is the one without crookedness.
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So people living outside Arabia cannot understand the Quran? Are all members of this Quranic forum from inside Arabia?
Can people outside Arabia not learn Arabic language? And Arabs cannot learn foreign languages?
The Quran uses only about 2000 words, I think, which are repeated over and over. Is it so difficult for people to learn just 2000 words? C'mon! Many people can speak many languages! What are just 2000 words?!
peace
The Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. People in that age didn't have the internet, nor did they have books or teachers teaching them arabic.You don't get it. You don't have to learn complete Arabic. You only have learn the Quran. And the Quran consists of just about 2000 words, repeated over and over. It doesn't get much easier than that. Unless you are unwilling to learn. Do you get it now? Tell me.
And even today, it is very hard for anyone to understand arabic completely.
Who is asking you to understand Arabic completely?
And if you don't understand it completely, it's very easy to make wrong conclusions.
No, because the Quran does not use all the Arabic out there. Can you understand it? Tell me please.
But why is Arabic so important to you?
Is that what we are discussing? Tell me.
can't a book in english be just as clear? or a book in Spanish?
Which language is clear according to the Quran?
I'd think God would come up with a better plan than what you're suggesting.
What is God's plan according to the Quran?
Or maybe the quran is just an arabic book written by an enlightened individual and there's nothing else to it.
But Arabic, nevertheless.
And I was expecting you to say this. You just have to say this in almost every other thread, no-matter how irrelevant to the topic it may be.
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peace Fahad,
sorry, but it is relevant. Because from what you are saying, it seems that you think that God chose arabic as a special language in which God would reveal it's message. And I'm saying that maybe God didn't choose. Maybe the people who wrote those books chose. Or maybe they didn't choose at all, maybe that's the only language they knew. The fact is that how we view the quran affects our understanding of it. So it's important, and relevant to pretty much everything. We need to make sure that we view the quran in the manner it should be viewed in.About learning arabic. It is said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You can't memorize the meanings of 2000 words (or even 200000) and expect to make sense out of them. There are the words, then there is the grammar (to put together the words). Unless you have a good basis in grammer, knowing the meanings of words is useless. You can't just learn a little bit and expect to understand a whole book with it. Hope you understand my point, Fahad.
And if you've analyzed arabic of the quran based on memorization of it's words' meanings, then I don't know if I can trust your translations that much.Which language is clear according to the quran?
well, I think the whole debate on this thread is whether the quran singles out one language or not. You are saying it does, and Samia is saying it doesn't. If we disregard the quran for a moment, every language can be clear. Maybe if you try inventing a new language that hasn't had the time to develop yet, maybe that would be unclear. But languages like english and spanish and urdu that have gone through centuries of evolution can be just as clear as arabic.What is God's plan?
I don't know what God's plan is. But I'm not too sure that it involves the arabic language. -
Again, why would the quran use a different language????
Why would the Quran??!! The question should be DOES the Quran use a different language? The answer is YES it does. Or do you think the Quran uses your local language? Can't you just see that the Quran is in Arabic?! It is so simple! Tell me.
and you can't prove that the quranic language is without crookedness.
Here, we prove our point by quoting from the Quran. And I just did that.
But i still don't get why God wouldn't use the language of the locals.
We were not discussing the the "why".
Why would God make people learn a completely different language just to tell them that it confirms the truths they already possess?
He does not.
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Phoenix, I had also asked you
The thing is, it makes no sense for all books to be in arabic. People who live outside Arabia do not speak it.
And, if arabic is a name of a language, and taking the above into consideration, 4144 becomes useless. Because the people wouldn't understand it.
How could you make sense of verse 4144? You live outside Arabia, right. You just cannot understand it.(thats what you say)
And what language do you think that the Quran is in? English? Urdu? or some other language? ... Arabic maybe?
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How could you make sense of verse 4144? You live outside Arabia, right. You just cannot understand it.(thats what you say)
And what language do you think that the Quran is in? English? Urdu? or some other language? ... Arabic maybe?
Of course it's in arabic. But it originated in a certain area, didn't it? that means it was in the language the locals spoke. Why would it be in any different language? The WHY is very important. Because if you consider the WHY, your conclusions make no sense. So why don't we discuss the why along with the other stuff.
Regardless of what the quran says, arabic is not a perfect language. By "not perfect" I mean the words can be manipulated to prove a point just like any other language. And for centuries, people have been using the quran to support pagan rituals and violence against innocents. How can you say that no one can curropt the quran's language, when people already have?
You can't just arrive at a conclusion based on your limited knowledge of arabic and the quranic verses, and completely ignore any other logical or empirical evidence.
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Why would God make people learn a completely different language just to tell them that it confirms the truths they already possess?He does not.
You are saying God does. Unless I misunderstood you.
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Salam.
Salaams fahad,
although i had given upanyway here i will do it again
Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds
With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-
To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.
In language/speech uncorrupted plain.
Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.
Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)?
Had We revealed it to any of the foreigners,
And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.
Thus have We caused it to enter the hearts of the sinners.When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger" but most of them understand not.
Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is faultless/arabic, pure and clear.Look at the two sections above
Although, Allah has said, this revelation has come to other peoples before this .
This isn?t that but a new revelation inspired to him.
And they think it is a forgery by one from the other peoples- the jews.And Allah is saying if it was a forgery they would now it as it wouldn?t be so clear but would have been corrupted some what due to its forgery or rather translation.
That looks too complicated, Simple. Or maybe that's too simple for us complicated ones. I'm sorry, I'm unable to make any sense of it.
4144
Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) foreign and (a Messenger an Arab?"?????..As Allah is talking about the ambiguity that would be involved in the translation process - according to the above few ayah's.
Firstly, in the above verse, Allah is not talking about ambiguity, but about tafseel.
Secondly, translation process??! Where did that come from?! Lemme see... Oh, from your signature.
"The quran doesn?t want explanations but needs a re-translation"
Thats the problem. The translation idea is not Quranic to begin with.
The Quran does not need translations. It needs explanations/clarifications in the language of the people, through the verses of the Quran itself. That is why Allah sends the messenger in the language of the people, so he can explain/clarify for them, and NOT to translate word-to-word. Because thats impossible. I have told you this before too.
14/4 And We do not send any rasool except in the language of his people, so that he may BYN/clarify/explain for them...
What do you think?
Arabic can be the name of the language -may be.
But then the message can only be for arabs i think.Same answer. The messenger is sent in the language of the people. So the Quran is not only for the arabs.
And by the way, if you think that the Quran is not in Arabic, what language do you think it is in? Can you please answer this.
So is arabic a language or as samia said?
A language, of course. Do you still have any doubts?
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Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples
and here Allah is talking about the message which came to others before , and not the book in arabic to others.
Remove that "announced" which you have inserted. Then read it.
WHETHER ARABIC BE A LANGUAGE OR MEANS CLEAR SPEECH , I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS.
You don't think it matters? Then why bother taking pains to prove that the Quran is not Arabic, but some other language? Huh!
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The Quran does not need translations. It needs explanations/clarifications in the language of the people, through the verses of the Quran itself. That is why Allah sends the messenger in the language of the people, so he can explain/clarify it for them, and NOT to translate word-to-word. Because thats impossible. I have told you this before too.
14/4 And We do not send any rasool except in the language of his people, so that he may BYN/clarify/explain for them...
peace fahad,
The messenger is the one who brings the message. THe message and the messenger are one and the same. Messengers aren't special people born with the knowledge of God's special arabic language, they are born normal human beings just like us. It's through their choices that they get to the status of messenger of God. -
peace Fahad,
sorry, but it is relevant.Lets see.
Because from what you are saying, it seems that you think that God chose arabic as a special language in which God would reveal it's message.
The book is revealed in arabic, yes.
And I'm saying that maybe God didn't choose. Maybe the people who wrote those books chose. Or maybe they didn't choose at all, maybe that's the only language they knew. The fact is that how we view the quran affects our understanding of it. So it's important, and relevant to pretty much everything. We need to make sure that we view the quran in the manner it should be viewed in.
If you wanna tell us that we should view the Quran as a man-made book, restrict yourself to the "Quranic Divinity" section. The entire section has been created to debate that. So don't spew it all over the forum.
About learning arabic. It is said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You can't memorize the meanings of 2000 words (or even 200000) and expect to make sense out of them. There are the words, then there is the grammar (to put together the words).
Even some parrots can learn about 1000 thousand words and can make sense of them. You are human! Humans can be efficient in many languages. But you? You can't make sense of just 2000 words?! The parrots beat you to it!
Unless you have a good basis in grammer, knowing the meanings of words is useless. You can't just learn a little bit and expect to understand a whole book with it. Hope you understand my point, Fahad.
What if the whole book is based on a little bit. Do you understand it now?
And if you've analyzed arabic of the quran based on memorization of it's words' meanings, then I don't know if I can trust your translations that much.
You have no choice except to trust translations. Because you live outside arabia. You just cannot ever understand Arabic, according to yourself. So why make claims about something you ?don?t know squat about??
Which language is clear according to the quran?
well, I think the whole debate on this thread is whether the quran singles out one language or not. You are saying it does, and Samia is saying it doesn't. If we disregard the quran for a moment, every language can be clear.But we do not disregard the Quran. You are on the wrong forum.
What is God's plan?
I don't know what God's plan is. But I'm not too sure that it involves the arabic language.God's plan does involve arabic, as well as the language of the people. The book in arabic, and the messenger in the language of the people to clarify for them.
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Hi brother Fahad,
Ok. Then how do you understand the concept of 'Jahannam'? It was originally used to refer to the valley of Hinnom which was used to burn garbage. -wikipedia.
The concept of living in hell in afterlife, supposedly developed after a while. The original meaning was thus perverted.
In which meaning does the quran use the word 'Jahannam'? If it is used in its secondary meaning then it's differs from the language of the earliest people using the term. The contemporary arabs of Muhammeds time, did not understand the word 'Jahannam' like the Hebrews some thousand years before them. Thus, we have good reason to believe that the two languages were different.
Hope I'm not speaking gibberish )
Nadeem
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Hello bro .
Ok. Then how do you understand the concept of 'Jahannam'? It was originally used to refer to the valley of Hinnom which was used to burn garbage. -wikipedia.
Why should I believe that the concept of 'jahannam' was originally used to refer to that valley?
The concept of living in hell in afterlife, supposedly developed after a while. The original meaning was thus perverted.
Again, why should I believe that?
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peace Fahad,
Again, why should I believe that?
umm...because it's fact?
You can't ignore outside knowledge and follow whatever you interpret in the quran.Anyway,
If you wanna tell us that we should view the Quran as a man-made book, restrict yourself to the "Quranic Divinity" section. The entire section has been created to debate that. So don't spew it all over the forum.
I'm not debating that. I just said if you look at the quran in a different manner, your interpretations of it can change, so how we percieve the Quran is important. And we need to make sure we are percieving it correctly. So if the quran was written by man (inspired by god) in reality, then we have to recognize that and accept that. I'm not arguing that that is the case. That's not what this thread is for, and I understand that.
Even some parrots can learn about 1000 thousand words and can make sense of them. You are human! Humans can be efficient in many languages. But you? You can't make sense of just 2000 words?! The parrots beat you to it!
You can't really do much with 2000 words. There is also something called grammar. And unless we have FULL knowledge of it, we won't be able to understand the minute details that are so important in a language.
If I know the words "I" and "bird." I can't really make a sentence out of it. Maybe that's good enough for a parrot, but it's not good in most cases for us, especially not when studying a book that is giving us a way of life.What if the whole book is based on a little bit. Do you understand it now?
Little bit of what? the quran uses the arabic language (spoken in arabia at the time). It doesn't follow any special rules. It doesn't restrict itself to a certain words, and more importantly, certain grammatical rules.
But again, I don't see why God would make me waste my time learning a whole different language when I certainly don't need to. The Quran contains the same message as many other spiritual philosophies, and those texts are not in arabic. I have read books that agree with the quran, but they are not in arabic.But we do not disregard the Quran. You are on the wrong forum.
I said "let's disregard the quran for a moment," because you are ignoring logic and facts based on your interpretation of the quran. Why don't you stop trying to understand the quran, and first try to find out what reality is. If your interpretation has no basis in reality, it won't help you much.
God's plan does involve arabic, as well as the language of the people. The book in arabic, and the messenger in the language of the people to clarify for them.
There are two places where I think your argument falls apart logically.
- The messengers and the message are not different. They are one and the same. The message comes from the messenger. The quran is in arabic because the messenger was in arabia. If he was in Europe, it would've been in Latin or German or Italian.
God didn't create a special language and then send special messengers to explain it to them. That seems quite ridiculous. And if that were true, you shouldn't be trying to understand the Quran since only a messenger has that ability. And so you have to follow the hadith because that's where you'll find the messenger's explanations. See how you are arguing for the sectarians here? - Doesn't the Quran say that it is a confirmation of the truths we already possess?
So, I'm no longer going to argue about whether the quran actually supports your position or not, since I know nothing about arabic. I'll let you and Samia solve that one. But hopefully you understand what I'm saying. You can't just believe anything because you believe it is divine. You need to look at what fits reality first.
T - The messengers and the message are not different. They are one and the same. The message comes from the messenger. The quran is in arabic because the messenger was in arabia. If he was in Europe, it would've been in Latin or German or Italian.
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Hi brother Fahad,
Good questioning bro. Perhaps it boils down to whom you take as an authority in history?
But nevertheless, would you agree that the languages were different IF the mutation of the word 'Jahannam' was proven?
And brother, can you provide us with say 4000 year old inscriptions with the same language as the quran? That would end this debate on the spot.
Nadeem
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Hi brother Fahad,
Good questioning bro. Perhaps it boils down to whom you take as an authority in history?
Yeah.
But nevertheless, would you agree that the languages were different IF the mutation of the word 'Jahannam' was proven?
No. I would say that people twisted their language with al-kitaab to confuse others (37.
And brother, can you provide us with say 4000 year old inscriptions with the same language as the quran? That would end this debate on the spot.
No. What should end the debate on the spot are verses of the Quran. But some people on this forum just don't accept the Quran as the authority.
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Again, why should I believe that?
peace Fahad,umm...because it's fact?
Like I told you before, you are on the wrong forum. The Quran is the fact.
You can't ignore outside knowledge and follow whatever you interpret in the quran.
Yes we can. If you have never heard the term "Quran alone" before on this forum, this is what it means.
If you wanna tell us that we should view the Quran as a man-made book, restrict yourself to the "Quranic Divinity" section. The entire section has been created to debate that. So don't spew it all over the forum.
Anyway,I'm not debating that. I just said if you look at the quran in a different manner, your interpretations of it can change, so how we percieve the Quran is important. And we need to make sure we are percieving it correctly.
If my understanding is not contradicting any parts of the Quran, then I am perceiving it correctly.
So if the quran was written by man (inspired by god) in reality, then we have to recognize that and accept that. I'm not arguing that that is the case. That's not what this thread is for, and I understand that.
Good.
Even some parrots can learn about 1000 thousand words and can make sense of them. You are human! Humans can be efficient in many languages. But you? You can't make sense of just 2000 words?! The parrots beat you to it!
You can't really do much with 2000 words. There is also something called grammar. And unless we have FULL knowledge of it, we won't be able to understand the minute details that are so important in a language.
If I know the words "I" and "bird." I can't really make a sentence out of it. Maybe that's good enough for a parrot, but it's not good in most cases for us, especially not when studying a book that is giving us a way of life.You don't know what you are talking about.
What if the whole book is based on a little bit. Do you understand it now?
Little bit of what? the quran uses the arabic language (spoken in arabia at the time). It doesn't follow any special rules. It doesn't restrict itself to a certain words, and more importantly, certain grammatical rules.
But again, I don't see why God would make me waste my time learning a whole different language when I certainly don't need to. The Quran contains the same message as many other spiritual philosophies, and those texts are not in arabic. I have read books that agree with the quran, but they are not in arabic.Good for you, if you can learn portions of the same message from other books as well. But the advantage with the Quran is that you can find everything in one place.
But we do not disregard the Quran. You are on the wrong forum.
I said "let's disregard the quran for a moment," because you are ignoring logic and facts based on your interpretation of the quran. Why don't you stop trying to understand the quran, and first try to find out what reality is. If your interpretation has no basis in reality, it won't help you much.
Let me tell you what your reality is
'that people living outside arabia cannot understand a book based on 2000 words. That people outside arabia can go to schools, colleges, universities, they can master subjects and many languages at once, but they cannot understand the Quran, a small,resembling and repeating book. God is unfair to the non-arabic people that He revealed an arabic book which contains double the size of a parrot's vocabulary!'
This your reality, your logic and your facts.
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'that people living outside arabia cannot understand a book based on 2000 words. That people outside arabia can go to schools, colleges, universities, they can master subjects and many languages at once, but they cannot understand the Quran, a small,resembling and repeating book. God is unfair to the non-arabic people that He revealed an arabic book which contains double the size of a parrot's vocabulary!'
Exactly. Thank you.
But just one thing I would fix in that. Not all people can afford to go to colleges and universities just to learn a foreign language. Not only that, not all colleges and universities teach arabic.
How many members, out of the 1500, actually have a good understanding of arabic? good enough that they don't have to rely on others to understand it? You are delusional if you think memorizing 2000 words will instantly make you a scholar in classical arabic. Sorry, but it's not that simple.Like I told you before, you are on the wrong forum. The Quran is the fact.
No, the Quran is not the fact. We are studying, examining, and criticizing the quran. We are not blindly believing everything we think it says. The Quran might be fact, but what you think it says doesn't have to be.
Also, you can't deny proven FACTS just because you think the quran says something else. Maybe something we havn't proven yet you can deny. But to ignore the truth just because it doesn't go along with your understanding is, well, ignorant.
If your interpretation goes along with facts and logic, then fine. But so far, you've been avoiding those questions.You don't know what you are talking about.
computer I post forum quran debate because like I enjoy it internet logic good smilie fact and.
This your reality, your logic and your facts.
Yes, that's my reality since I have verified it. What is your reality? that God created a special language, then created special people who understand that message, then spread the same book in seperate places in different times. If that is reality, where is your evidence? Why aren't there more arabic scriptures? Why didn't God just preserve the first one? If only messengers could understand the language, why are you even trying? Why can't God just give the people His message in their language? is that too hard for him? Why do we have the same message as in the quran in different books in different languages if God's message can only be explained in one pure language?
Why does the quran contain stories from other scriptures that were in different languages? why does the quran have words from other languages like jahannum and the messenger's names?
Unless you can answer those questions, your theory isn't even a theory.