Bacon on my cheeseburger
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But it is a possibility, that's all I stated.
I don't see the relevance as we're not discussing probabilities. You asked for a basis for my claim. My claim was that it's possible(yet inconclusive) khanzeer has been mistranslated. This is based on the fact that many other words have been mistranslated. Thus the possibility has a basis.
Peace Tay,
Among other things that lead me to share your thought on the possibility that "khanzeer" has been mistranslated is when God uses the word "Lahma" before it. If God were to state the prohibition on this specific animal, God would simply use the word to describe the whole part of the animal rather than confining to the meat only. To imagine that pig instentine, liver, heart, lard are permissible when the scripture only forbid the meat creates a loopholes in the Scripture that suppose to provide clear and details guidance for the mankind.
I have come to the conclusion that neither the "Lahma" nor "Khanzeerin" has been correctly translated to the actual meaning as intended by our Creator.
Obviously explanations given by Priest Bokmei should give a fair reasoning on why "Khanzeerin" should be read as "bad/rotten" instead of "pig". As for the "Lahma" I realized that it simply refer to "food" and not meat as generally understood. The changes from "food" to become "meat" happend from what is termed as "Semantic drift" that is common with any language that evolved from one generation to another.
Take for example "food" as found in Old English.
Semantic change - http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_drift
Semantic shift
Semantic shift occurs as a word moves from one set of circumstances to another, resulting in an extension of the range of meanings. An example of this is navigator, which once applied only to ships but, with the development of planes and cars, now applies to multiple forms of travel. Another example is Old English, meat, (or rather mete), which referred to all forms of solid food while flesh (fl?sc) referred to animal tissue, and food (foda) referred to animal fodder. Meat was eventually restricted to flesh of animals, then flesh restricted to the tissue of humans and food was generalized to refer to all forms of solid food (Jeffers & Lehiste).Classical Arabic as one of the Semitic languages has undergone similar transformation whereby the same word over the time can carry different meaning and this possibilities cannot simply be left ignored.
Another article on "Food" in Classical Arabic.
Semitic languages http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages
Sometimes certain roots differ in meaning from one Semitic language to another. For example, the root b-y-#7693; in Arabic has the meaning of "white" as well as "egg", whereas in Hebrew it only means "egg". The root l-b-n means "milk" in Arabic, but the color "white" in Hebrew. The root l-h-m means "meat" in Arabic but "bread" in Hebrew and "cow" in Ethiosemitic languages; the original meaning was most probably "food". The word medina has the meaning of "city" in Arabic, and "metropolis" in Amharic, but in Hebrew it means "state".God certainly has taken into consideration the limitation of human language in delivering the message to the mankind. Thus we can see similar words being used in other verse. This among others to guide us to see and understand the actual meaning of the words as intended by our Creator. Without this, there would be many contradictions. refer Q482
As we can see, earlier bro Edip mentioned that from his understanding with the word "Khanzeerin" as pig, he willingly accept the statement that God had indeed turned certain human to become pigs and monkeys, (refer Q560) although this understanding defies any physical law created by God himself. Indeed another contradiction made by God?
Q2173, 53, 6145, 16115 in essence tells us to avoid eating carrion, live animal (blood), bad food, and making offering of animals/foods, unless we believe God needs us to supply food to Him.
Salam sejahtera from Malaysia.
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peace
Idolfree1 posted somethign about "don't eat pork" being symbolic for us not to get greedy because we are told to eat the meat of birds (which symbolize higher state of mind) and not to eat the meat of an animal who wallows in the mud. Good and interesting observation, but I can't say that it was a strong argument for a non literal explanation.The fact is that it's human nature to ask questions, to want answers. God would not ignore that. God would not torture us with experiments and tests. God wouldn't make us go against our nature and burn us in hell for eternity if we fail. No.
It's not a test of faith. The "don't eat pig's meat" part. Just like everything else, it's supposed to be better for us.What I can't understand is why the quran tells us about pigs, but not about other deadly things we can eat. If it's a complete book, and eating right is part of our perfect way of life, then why does the quran list only ONE animal out of hundreds that are harmful to us, and for some reason that animal isn't any unhealthier than other animals which followers of the Quran eat all the time.
There is something we are obviously missing here. We can't leave it at "God asked us to so we should," or "it's a test." -
Peace Phil,
While Priest Bokmei's arguments certainly piqued my interest, there were some logical fallacies which left me undecided. The whole "khanzeer" = bad/rotten argument does not hold up to logic based on the 2nd to last sentence in ayah 2173 Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him.
Imagine, God would sanction eating rotten meat out of need? We don't have the stomachs, literally, to be able to digest rotten meat without getting severely, even deathly, ill. The other forbiddances I can see as tolerable out of need, including pork. But rotten meat is never a good idea.
And then there's the whole grammatical thing, but no need in rehashing that now.
Anyway, like I said, I choose to err on the side of caution without much conviction because it doesn't really seem that important and I'm already used to not eating it. It's one less fatty food to curb myself from
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
While Priest Bokmei's arguments certainly piqued my interest, there were some logical fallacies which left me undecided. The whole "khanzeer" = bad/rotten argument does not hold up to logic...
Exactly... do we need to be told not to eat "rotten meat"? yuck Are we to believe that people were eating the stuff all over the stuff, until they were told, okay, you need to stop that disgusting habit. hypno -
Peace be with you
Excellent point Tay
Quote Phil
?.As we can see, earlier bro Edip mentioned that from his understanding with the word "Khanzeerin" as pig, he willingly accept the statement that God had indeed turned certain human to become pigs and monkeys, (refer Q560) although this understanding defies any physical law created by God himself. Indeed another contradiction made by God?
Peace Phil
What are the physical laws that God is bound by?
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Peace tay
I choose to err on the side of caution without much conviction because it doesn't really seem that important and I'm already used to not eating it.
...that's exactely my stand on the question as well - for the time being. Concerning the ongoing discussion around khanzeer - rotten or pig - no one really was able to convince me either.
lk
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Peace Phil
Quote Phil
........If God were to state the prohibition on this specific animal, God would simply use the word to describe the whole part of the animal rather than confining to the meat only. To imagine that pig instentine, liver, heart, lard are permissible when the scripture only forbid the meat creates a loopholes in the Scripture that suppose to provide clear and details guidance for the mankind.....
Who said pig instentine, liver, heart are allowed. Does the Quraan say it or you guessed ?
In biology, an organ is a group of tissues that perform a specific function or group of functions. Usually there is a main tissue and sporadic tissues. Biological tissue is a collection of interconnected cells that perform a similar function within an organism. The parts of the animal you mentioned are made up of different kind of muscle tissue. In animals organs include the heart, lungs, brain, eye, stomach, spleen, bones, pancreas, kidneys, liver, intestines, skin, uterus, and bladder. But please notice fat/lard is not included in the list. I guess meat will include the parts or organs you mentioned at least at the meat counter.
This is not my area of expertise I hope someone with knowledge in this area will be able to give definitions for each if you require.
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Why do the pig threads always get the love? I think after discussing (a few months back was it? It seems like a bad dream), I've come to the realisation to each his own. Some people may be interpreting it through cultural baggage, some because they might want to do something or be something that they thought they couldn't, some because they want to be different/revolutionary etc, the list goes on. I don't think anyone of us can claim we are objective in all aspects of the reading and our biases in one way or the other do come in, the only difference is they come in on different angles with different people of course.
Is the quran clear, of course it is. We just need to sort our priorities out and keep it simple and consistent in practice. Conceptually, be as wild as you like
Peace
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Peace warner
30.30 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in God?s creation. Such is the pure system, but most people do not know.
50.29 The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants.
These are the verses i actually remembered
lk
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Peace!
If the message is summed up in this one ayat "There is no compulsion in the religion; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God; then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower. (2256)" then why did Allah need to reveal everything else?
Such a big book to with so many lines to say 'just allegorical'?
How do I make sure whether the Ayat you referred to, viz., "He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others that are allegorical. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is allegorical from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God; and those who are well founded in knowledge, they Say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And none will remember except the people of understanding. (37)"
Is it to be taken literally? If so, on what basis?
If Allah would mean just this Ayat and all the characteristics you mentioned about the Straight Path, then why reveal so many other Ayat? To guide only people 1400 years ago? Then 1400 years from now the level and standards of Morality would change, for example, today, most people think there is nothing wrong in seeing or being a girl with a mini skirt on - no modesty!
Please take a look at the ayat you quoted - especially the part "Whoever rejects evil" (2256), how do we define evil? Wearing a miniskirt is not 'evil' for a model, but it is 'evil' for me and my wife. If Allah leaves 'evil' to our random guesses, likes, concensus etc., then the Quran cannot be the 'Furqan' (the criterion) and if it is so, then in what sense? Also, it would make the Quran very unclear, but the Quran says that it is clear.
There are too many things in discussion here. Instead of putting all the points, I suggest that you study the Quran in Arabic, if not, then, though its kind of irritating to read it, please study the translation by Dr. Taqiud-din-Hilali and Dr. Muhsin Khan. They are staunch Sunni translators, but one good thing is that they leave the key words untranslated in their translation. For example, 22, "This is the Book (the Qur'?n), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaq?n."
He even retains words such as 'Fasiqun' and 'T?gh?t', which is the word that is translated as 'evil' in 2256. A study of this translation, does clarify a lot of things.
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Peace Tay,
Imagine, God would sanction eating rotten meat out of need? We don't have the stomachs, literally, to be able to digest rotten meat without getting severely, even deathly, ill. The other forbiddances I can see as tolerable out of need, including pork. But rotten meat is never a good idea.
I believe the translation is not "rotten meat" but rather "perceived as rotten/bad meat". There's no specific details on how should/can we perceive/define rotten/bad meat and therefore the criteria is left to us to decide using our senses ability. Nevertheless, common sense will also tell us to avoid carrion and life animal beside than rotten meat. Despite that, God tells us that it is not a sin if we were forced to consume these categories of food out of necessity.
I fail to see the rational when applying your logic that says ok to eat carrion out of necessity, but not to "bad/rotten food". Any explanation, if you don't mind?
And then there's the whole grammatical thing, but no need in rehashing that now.
Agree, will not help much either. After all, my mother tongue is malay.
Anyway, like I said, I choose to err on the side of caution without much conviction because it doesn't really seem that important and I'm already used to not eating it. It's one less fatty food to curb myself from
No probs. It's individual's choice and taste preference. Only problem is when we start issuing prohibition in the name of God without justification as per the Great Reading.
Peace,
Phil
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Peace zenje,
Peace Tay,Exactly... do we need to be told not to eat "rotten meat"? yuck Are we to believe that people were eating the stuff all over the stuff, until they were told, okay, you need to stop that disgusting habit. hypno
Is it a habit that people eat carrion? Thus it become necessary for God to mention the prohibition in the Scripture?
Is it a habit that people disrespect the elders? Thus it become necessary for God to mention the obvious thing?
Salam
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Dear Phil,
Is it a habit that people disrespect the elders?
Err... yeah!Thus it become necessary for God to mention the obvious thing?
I'm not sure if you've read the verses that talk about people's habits in the past that needed correcting, coz if you haven't I'll be happy to point them out. )Peace be with you.
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Peace Phil
What are the physical laws that God is bound by?
Peace warner,
First thing first. God as the creator to the system is not bound by any physical laws in this world.
But we have to remember that there's rules (God's Laws) to every creation/process in this world. And for God to break His own made rules is a far-fetched assumption. Furthermore my God does not need to prove His ability and power to change human to pigs or monkeys.
BTW, there's a imam@undertaker in malaysia claimed that he saw corpse turned to pig as the gravedigger place the dead man 6ft under. brickwall
Salam
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Dear Phil,Err... yeah! I'm not sure if you've read the verses that talk about people's habits in the past that needed correcting, coz if you haven't I'll be happy to point them out.
Peace be with you.
Dear Zenje,
Thanks for the offer.
Are you sure that prohibition and guidance are placed in the Qur'an as a result from action and habit of the previous generations? Previous generations like to eat carrion?
The guidance to the dietary system is simply a common sense and nothing is religious about it.
And the same reason we are reminded to respect the elders. It's common sense, although you may find those who are not, whether from past generation or now and even future.
Also, we are reminded to protect the unfortunate one. It's common sense, although you may find those who are not, whether from past generation or now and even future.
In essence, Deen-illah is a system of life full of common sense habits/good practises and in-sync with the concept of "peace".
Now using your common sense and your knowledge in reading the Scripture, I would appreciate your input to which God's Laws to follow@specific prohibition, for me to avoid becoming pigs and monkeys.
And some examples of what the present generation has not done compared to the previous generation would be very helpful.
Peace with you too.