Jesus, Miracles, Virginbirth and the Nazarenes
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So when the the Quran says that it is a guidance for mankind, it means that it was a guidance for pre-quranic people as well? Was Quran present in pre-Quranic times? From day one?
"Mankind" means the human race in general. It includes everyone. The quran may not have been there, but the guidance of the quran was.
Why include Jesus and exclude the Quran? You are picking and choosing.
The message is in the signs of the universe, which can be explained in words. And you can't ignore the quran when it says that Jesus is similar to Adam. As Arnold said, babies didn't fall out of the sky before the quran was written. The laws of the universe remain the same. So Allah's sunnat remains the same throughout too.
Fahad, you have to stay open minded about this. Right now, with all due respect, you are bordering on stupidity.I am being stupid? When you haven't even addressed my arguments?
It's better if you take a second look at your interpretation than abandon all logic and reason to support it.
In another thread you said that you don't know a squat about arabic, but with all due respect, you don't know a squat about Al-Quran either.
So it is better to take a first look at the verses relevant to the topic.
And going back to Allah's sunnat, it is not dictated by the quran,
It is dictated by Al-Quran. Read the verses about sunnat of Allah.
it is in the signs of al kitab (universe).
Hehe... You won't have any proof to back this, but Al-Quran is tafseel of Al-Kitab. So even if going by your understanding, al-quran still provides tafseel of 'sunnat of Allah from al-kitaab'. You were talking about reasoning and logic? What happened?
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peace Fahad
Why include Jesus and exclude the Quran? You are picking and choosing.
include and exclude in what? We are talking about what the quran says about Mankind. Since Jesus was a man, he is part of mankind. And since all of mankind are made of sperms and eggs, it is correct to conclude that Jesus had a human father.
I am being stupid? When you haven't even addressed my arguments?
Yes, you were when you said that Jesus isn't included in mankind when the quran very clearly says he is. You are the only one who fails to see this and it's because you are blindly defending your interpretation.
In another thread you said that you don't know a squat about arabic, but with all due respect, you don't know a squat about Al-Quran either.
So it is better to take a first look at the verses relevant to the topic.
Can we just focus on what the quran is saying instead of talking about how much you think I know about "Al-Quran?"
You can't just make up your mind about what the quran is saying and then ignore everything contradictory to it. And that's what you are doing. So why don't we get back to whether Jesus is a human or not?It is dictated by Al-Quran. Read the verses about sunnat of Allah.
NOTHING is dictated by the quran. The quran says a lot of things, and we must verify all of those things to make sure if they are true or not. The universe, and ultimately god dictates the terms. Not a book.
The world isn't the way it is because the quran says so, but the quran is the way it is because the universe says so. That was my point.Hehe... You won't have any proof to back this, but Al-Quran is tafseel of Al-Kitab. So even if going by your understanding, al-quran still provides tafseel of 'sunnat of Allah from al-kitaab'. You were talking about reasoning and logic? What happened?
Yes, of course the quran explains the universe. But the quran doesn't "dictate" anything. If you dictate something, you command something. If you are a dictator, everyone listens to you unconditionally. So "dictate" is the wrong word. God's laws are not dictated by the quran, but they are explained in it. Hopefully that makes sense and I'm sure you'll agree with this.
and havn't I been addressing your arguments? -
peace Fahad
Why include Jesus and exclude the Quran? You are picking and choosing.
include and exclude in what? We are talking about what the quran says about Mankind.
We were also talking about al-quran being a guidance for mankind.
Since Jesus was a man, he is part of mankind. And since all of mankind are made of sperms and eggs, it is correct to conclude that Jesus had a human father.
And Jesus was born without any man touching Marium, as is evident from her story. So he didn't have a father.
Or, again, do you think al-quran was a guidance for pre-quranic mankind as well? You said it wasn't. So "Mankind" does not mean 'all mankind'.
I am being stupid? When you haven't even addressed my arguments?
Yes, you were when you said that Jesus isn't included in mankind when the quran very clearly says he is.
"Mankind" does not mean "all mankind". So Jesus can be excluded. Why is it so hard for you to understand a simple thing? Even when I have explained Marium's story, which makes it very clear?
You are the only one who fails to see this and it's because you are blindly defending your interpretation.
And you don't know a squat about Al-Quran. So you are the one who defends his interpretations blindly.
Can we just focus on what the quran is saying instead of talking about how much you think I know about "Al-Quran?"
If you can focus as well.
You can't just make up your mind about what the quran is saying and then ignore everything contradictory to it.
I didn't.
And that's what you are doing. So why don't we get back to whether Jesus is a human or not?
He was very human.
NOTHING is dictated by the quran. The quran says a lot of things, and we must verify all of those things to make sure if they are true or not.
It is the other way around. Al-Quran is The Criterion/Al-Furqan. We should verify all those things by it.
The universe, and ultimately god dictates the terms. Not a book.
And your proof is?
The world isn't the way it is because the quran says so, but the quran is the way it is because the universe says so. That was my point.
Yes, of course the quran explains the universe. But the quran doesn't "dictate" anything. If you dictate something, you command something. If you are a dictator, everyone listens to you unconditionally. So "dictate" is the wrong word. God's laws are not dictated by the quran, but they are explained in it. Hopefully that makes sense and I'm sure you'll agree with this.Al Quran gives many commands. Haven't you been reading it?
And I was asking you to read the verses about sunnat of Allah, so you can get an idea as to what it is.
and havn't I been addressing your arguments?
Which of my arguments have you addressed so far?
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peace Fahad,
And Jesus was born without any man touching Marium, as is evident from her story. So he didn't have a father.
Or, again, do you think al-quran was a guidance for pre-quranic mankind as well? You said it wasn't. So "Mankind" does not mean 'all mankind'.
I agree with you with what Marium said, but seeing that the quran makes it clear that Jesus was a man just like anyother, I'm thinking that it might be something different.
The quran's message was already with us. Doesn't the quran say that it is a reminder, and a confirmation of the truths we already have? the message, and thus the guidance, has always been there for mankind.
Mankind does not mean "people living after the quran," it means the human race in general. Every human being ever born and who will be born is part of the human race. Unless the quran means something different than "mankind" that's what it means."Mankind" does not mean "all mankind". So Jesus can be excluded. Why is it so hard for you to understand a simple thing? Even when I have explained Marium's story, which makes it very clear?
Why are you using Marium's story to define what "mankind" is?
When the quran clearly describes what mankind is, and then tells us that Jesus is just like Adam?
The problem with your understanding is that you are misunderstanding the word "mankind" (reinventing it's meaning, actually) to fit your version of Marium's story. If the quran had said "people after the quran" then you'd have a point.
What you are doing is similar to reading a story with a lot of incomprehensible words, and forming your own version of what those words mean and what happens in the story (even though you don't understand the words), and then going back to the dictionaries and arguing that they've got the meanings wrong.And you don't know a squat about Al-Quran. So you are the one who defends his interpretations blindly.
OK. Attacking me won't make you right. All I'm saying is that you should admit there's a problem and try to solve it instead of turning everything upside down to ignore the problem.
I know I can be wrong. I might be wrong. But I know that "mankind" means what it means, and that does cause problems with the virgin birth story. If you are right about Marium, then it is a contradiction. Unless you can prove to me beyond reasonable doubt that "mankind" means something different from what we're all used to. Since you are reinventing the wheel, the burden of proof is with you.He was very human.
It is the other way around. Al-Quran is The Criterion/Al-Furqan. We should verify all those things by it.okay, two things.
First, if Jesus was human, then how come he was born without a father?
were fathers unecessary before the quran was written?
Why have we, today, and people before us, never seen anything like this? what happened to the fixed "allah's sunnat?"
If it was such a miracle, then why did the Jews deny it? why couldn't they see that this talking baby was obviously something special? The jews are the only people who lived there who don't have a reason to believe in this story, and they say that it is false. Why?
But, again, why should I believe this when there is no evidence whatsoever supporting it??
please answer these questions.
Second, If I write a book which says "this book is the criterion, judge everything by it" what will you do? I'm sure it'll be very confusing for you because then you'll have two criterions.
My point is, there is a reason you believe in the quran. There is a reason you ignore your reasoning and logic and senses and believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. There is a reason...and that proves that the quran is NOT the criterion. Because you used your senses, logic, and reasoning to determine the quran to be a book from God, right? You used the Universe to judge the Quran. Not the other way around.
But if you don't have a reason at all, if you just read that the quran says "this is from God, this is the criterion, this is all true" and believed it, then you are guilty of "blind faith."
So either I just proved the great Al Quran wrong, or maybe the quran meant something other than what you think it meant.Al Quran gives many commands. Haven't you been reading it?
And I was asking you to read the verses about sunnat of Allah, so you can get an idea as to what it is.
You want me to say that I've never read the quran and I know nothing about it. Fine. Let's assume (you already have) that that's true. Now why don't you address my concerns, and accept that there's no real difference between "mankind" and "all mankind" because "mankind" means "all humans" or the "human race."
The quran gives many commands, but we verify them.
What if my book, (the criterion, the truth from god) also commands you to kill yourself, will you do it? Why or why not?
please answer this. -
peace Fahad,
And Jesus was born without any man touching Marium, as is evident from her story. So he didn't have a father.
Or, again, do you think al-quran was a guidance for pre-quranic mankind as well? You said it wasn't. So "Mankind" does not mean 'all mankind'.
I agree with you with what Marium said, but seeing that the quran makes it clear that Jesus was a man just like anyother, ...
In what way was Jesus like Adam? The verse makes it very clear. Read 359 and 347 and tell me what is common between the two.
I'm thinking that it might be something different.
Something different? What exactly?
The quran's message was already with us. Doesn't the quran say that it is a reminder, and a confirmation of the truths we already have? the message, and thus the guidance, has always been there for mankind.
But the Quran itself hasn't always been there, right? So a good number of mankind can be excluded from the "mankind" mentioned in 2185. Just like we can exclude the man Jesus from the "mankind" mentioned in the other verse.
"Mankind" does not mean "all mankind". So Jesus can be excluded. Why is it so hard for you to understand a simple thing? Even when I have explained Marium's story, which makes it very clear?
Mankind does not mean "people living after the quran," it means the human race in general. Every human being ever born and who will be born is part of the human race. Unless the quran means something different than "mankind" that's what it means.Why are you using Marium's story to define what "mankind" is?
I am not defining "mankind" by Marium's story. I am explaining why Jesus is excluded i.e why he doesn't have a father.
When the quran clearly describes what mankind is, and then tells us that Jesus is just like Adam?
Again, in what way was Jesus like Adam? The verse makes it very clear. Read 359 and 347 and tell me what is common between the two.
The problem with your understanding is that you are misunderstanding the word "mankind" (reinventing it's meaning, actually) to fit your version of Marium's story. If the quran had said "people after the quran" then you'd have a point.
I have shown you why "mankind" can exclude a good number of mankind.
And you don't know a squat about Al-Quran. So you are the one who defends his interpretations blindly.
OK. Attacking me won't make you right. All I'm saying is that you should admit there's a problem and try to solve it instead of turning everything upside down to ignore the problem.
I will admit when I see a problem. I really haven't seen any so far. The way you are "solving the problem", you are changing the meaning of Al-Quran to suit your world-view, you are rationalizing it. If Al-quran is too difficult and too non-sense for you to believe, so be it. But why change its meaning to make it more believable for yourself?
I know I can be wrong. I might be wrong. But I know that "mankind" means what it means, and that does cause problems with the virgin birth story. If you are right about Marium, then it is a contradiction. Unless you can prove to me beyond reasonable doubt that "mankind" means something different from what we're all used to. Since you are reinventing the wheel, the burden of proof is with you.
Again, I have shown you why "mankind" can exclude a good number of mankind.
He was very human.
It is the other way around. Al-Quran is The Criterion/Al-Furqan. We should verify all those things by it.okay, two things.
First, if Jesus was human, then how come he was born without a father?He was definitely a human. Because he was born from Marium. And because he was a prophet. And prophets are always human.
were fathers unecessary before the quran was written?
I know one such case Jesus' . So in his case, yes , a father was unnecessary, as is evident from Marium's story.
Why have we, today, and people before us, never seen anything like this?
As if we, and the people before us have seen everything?
what happened to the fixed "allah's sunnat?"
What is Allah's sunnat, Phoenix1? Enlighten us.
If it was such a miracle, then why did the Jews deny it? why couldn't they see that this talking baby was obviously something special? The jews are the only people who lived there who don't have a reason to believe in this story, and they say that it is false. Why?
Just like you and many others can't or don?t want to see any thing special in Al-Quran.
But, again, why should I believe this when there is no evidence whatsoever supporting it??
I have provided you the evidence. But you and a few others are trying to rationalize Al-Quran.
please answer these questions.
Second, If I write a book which says "this book is the criterion, judge everything by it" what will you do? I'm sure it'll be very confusing for you because then you'll have two criterions.I will judge what your book says by Al-Quran.
My point is, there is a reason you believe in the quran. There is a reason you ignore your reasoning and logic and senses and believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.
I am only telling you what Al-Qurna is saying. If it goes against your ?logic and reasoning?, so be it. You can reject Al-Quran. But you don?t have to rationalize it .
There is a reason...and that proves that the quran is NOT the criterion. Because you used your senses, logic, and reasoning to determine the quran to be a book from God, right? You used the Universe to judge the Quran. Not the other way around.
But if you don't have a reason at all, if you just read that the quran says "this is from God, this is the criterion, this is all true" and believed it, then you are guilty of "blind faith."
So either I just proved the great Al Quran wrong, or maybe the quran meant something other than what you think it meant.It meant what I think it meant. Verse 2185 supports my thinking.
Al Quran gives many commands. Haven't you been reading it?
And I was asking you to read the verses about sunnat of Allah, so you can get an idea as to what it is.
You want me to say that I've never read the quran and I know nothing about it. Fine. Let's assume (you already have) that that's true. Now why don't you address my concerns, and accept that there's no real difference between "mankind" and "all mankind" because "mankind" means "all humans" or the "human race."
Is Al-Quran also talking about Jesus and Mary as well , when it says ?mankind? in verse 5/116 . Think! It is so simple to understand what I am saying. And that I am not changing the meaning of ?mankind?.
The quran gives many commands, but we verify them.
What if my book, (the criterion, the truth from god) also commands you to kill yourself, will you do it? Why or why not?
please answer this.I will judge your book by Al-Quran.
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peace Fahad,
OK, I've revised my understanding, and although I was confused, and I still am, I think that the quran no longer has a contradiction, because Jesus WAS born without a father. I agree with you. I just don't think that Jesus is supposed to be a real person. I think it's symbolism, because the quran clearly defines mankind to be born of a male and a female. And since Jesus can't be a superhuman or something, it has to be a symbol. Now I just need to find out what, I believe that it has to do something with God's will.
So, yes, I'll conclude that this story is a parable, and Jesus is not a real person.But the Quran itself hasn't always been there, right? So a good number of mankind can be excluded from the "mankind" mentioned in 2185. Just like we can exclude the man Jesus from the "mankind" mentioned in the other verse.
I don't understand what you mean, here. How can people be excluded from mankind?
I have provided you the evidence. But you and a few others are trying to rationalize Al-Quran.
I'm not trying to rationalize it, I'm assuming that the quran is a rational book. If something doesn't make sense, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's too difficult to understand, it can also mean that it's just a bunch of BS. We need to sort the truth from falsehood, not believe in anything that is shown to us.
What is Allah's sunnat, Phoenix1? Enlighten us
I was using your definition, why don't you offer your view (first)?
Just like you and many others can't or don?t want to see any thing special in Al-Quran
If we know that the truth is from God, then we have to find out what is the truth and what is not. If the quran is true (which it wouldn't be if it supports virgin birth of some superhuman), then it is from God.
I am only telling you what Al-Qurna is saying. If it goes against your ?logic and reasoning?, so be it. You can reject Al-Quran. But you don?t have to rationalize it .
No, you are telling me what you THINK al quran is saying. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to realize that there can be 2 right answers, and that you CAN be wrong.
The message of the quran is not to believe in the quran, but to believe in the truth. What's the point of believing the quran when you know it's not true?I will judge your book by Al-Quran.
But MY book is the criterion. OK, how about my book says "this is a more important criterion than al quran." Then what?
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Peace Fahad, all,
Fahad, you asked
Read 359 and 347 and tell me what is common between the two.
359 tells us that both Adam and Isa were born from dust/clay via the "be" command from God.
347 tells us also that God creates via the "be" command.This, however, is not unique to Adam and Isa...
3020 Among His Signs is this, that He created you from dust;
Who is this in reference to? See also 1837, 225, 3511, 4067.
Furthermore, according to 4068 "...when He decrees an affair, He only says to it Be, and it is". Notice, that this is not a special command just for Adam and Isa. It is whenever Allah decrees an affair.
Therefore, the conclusion is
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created from dust/clay
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created via the "be" commandSo what is 359 telling us?
Adam and Isa were men created just like all other men.Peace,
Tay -
peace Fahad,
OK, I've revised my understanding, and although I was confused, and I still am, I think that the quran no longer has a contradiction, because Jesus WAS born without a father. I agree with you. I just don't think that Jesus is supposed to be a real person. I think it's symbolism, because the quran clearly defines mankind to be born of a male and a female. And since Jesus can't be a superhuman or something, it has to be a symbol. Now I just need to find out what, I believe that it has to do something with God's will.
So, yes, I'll conclude that this story is a parable, and Jesus is not a real person.OK. At least you agree that Jesus was born without a father, even if you think it is not a real story.
But the Quran itself hasn't always been there, right? So a good number of mankind can be excluded from the "mankind" mentioned in 2185. Just like we can exclude the man Jesus from the "mankind" mentioned in the other verse.
I don't understand what you mean, here. How can people be excluded from mankind?
I wrote
Is Al-Quran also talking about Jesus and Mary as well , when it says ?mankind? in verse 5/116 . Think! It is so simple to understand what I am saying. And that I am not changing the meaning of ?mankind?.
i.e. Verse 5/116 excludes Marium and Jesus from the "mankind/people" that it is referring to and includes only those who have taken Jesus and Marium as gods besides Allah.
That is what I meant.
I have provided you the evidence. But you and a few others are trying to rationalize Al-Quran.
I'm not trying to rationalize it, I'm assuming that the quran is a rational book. If something doesn't make sense, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's too difficult to understand, it can also mean that it's just a bunch of BS. We need to sort the truth from falsehood, not believe in anything that is shown to us.
Yeah, but we don't have to make it look more believable than it is, i.e to make it look more "logical" and acceptable to others.
What is Allah's sunnat, Phoenix1? Enlighten us
I was using your definition, why don't you offer your view (first)?
And I was using Arnold's definition. Here is mine
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11757.msg82615#msg82615Just like you and many others can't or don?t want to see any thing special in Al-Quran
If we know that the truth is from God, then we have to find out what is the truth and what is not. If the quran is true (which it wouldn't be if it supports virgin birth of some superhuman), then it is from God.
If al-quran is true, then the virginbirth story should also be true. If it sounds illogical, so it can. Because the good news sounded illogical to Marium as well. Thats why she asked how she can have a son without a man touching her. But she was told that what sounded illogical to her is actually very easy for God to do.
I am only telling you what Al-Qurna is saying. If it goes against your ?logic and reasoning?, so be it. You can reject Al-Quran. But you don?t have to rationalize it .
No, you are telling me what you THINK al quran is saying. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to realize that there can be 2 right answers, and that you CAN be wrong.
Not unless you can show me HOW I can be wrong about this.
The message of the quran is not to believe in the quran, but to believe in the truth. What's the point of believing the quran when you know it's not true?
Yeah, if one knows that al-quran is illogical and not true, then he should reject it, instead of making it look more believable and rationalizing it.
I will judge your book by Al-Quran.
But MY book is the criterion. OK, how about my book says "this is a more important criterion than al quran." Then what?
Who cares about your book?!
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Read 359 and 347 and tell me what is common between the two.
Fahad, you asked
359 tells us that both Adam and Isa were born from dust/clay via the "be" command from God.
347 tells us also that God creates via the "be" command.This, however, is not unique to Adam and Isa...
3020 Among His Signs is this, that He created you from dust;
Who is this in reference to? See also 1837, 225, 3511, 4067.
Furthermore, according to 4068 "...when He decrees an affair, He only says to it Be, and it is". Notice, that this is not a special command just for Adam and Isa. It is whenever Allah decrees an affair.
Therefore, the conclusion is
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created from dust/clay
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created via the "be" commandSo what is 359 telling us?
Adam and Isa were men created just like all other men.In what manner were they like like all other men? That they were created by dust and the "be" command.
But in what manner were they unlike all other men? That neither Jesus nor Adam required two parents to be created. Otherwise Allah could have said that Jesus' example is similar to someone like, say, Ishaaq or Yaqoob whose both parents are mentioned in Al-Quran.
But instead, Allah chose to make Jesus' example similar to Adam's , because in Al-Quran there is no such thing is "Adam's father" just like there is no such thing as "Jesus' father".
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Peace,
Indeed Nadeem......
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Peace and greetings,
This verse clearly refutes all claims that Jesus is not a man,
"And We did not send any except men before you whom We inspired, so ask the people who received the Reminder if you do not know." 1643
Following is the story of Jesus
"And relate in the Scripture Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east.She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity.
She said ?I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are a person of faith.?
He said ?I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son.?
She said ?How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such??
He said ?It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained.?
So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place.
Then the birth pains came to her, by the trunk of a palm tree. She said ?I wish I had died before this, and became totally forgotten!?But then he called to her from beneath her ?Do not be sad, your Lord has made below you a stream.?
?And shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will cause ripe dates to fall upon you.?
?So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then Say ?I have declared a fast for the Almighty, and I will not talk today to any of mankind.??
Then she came to her people carrying him. They said ?O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!?
?O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!?
So she pointed to him. They said ?How can we talk to someone who is a child in a cradle?He said ?I am God?s servant, He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.And He made me blessed wherever I was, and He charged me with the oath of allegiance and towards betterment as long as I am alive." ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant.?
?And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the Day I am resurrected alive.?Such was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of the matter in which they doubt.God was never to take a son, be He glorified. If He decrees a matter, then He simply says to it ?Be,? and it is."1916-35
It is a misconception that Jesus is not a human. He is in fact a human. The God blew spirit twice in first case Adam and then Jesus. The rest of mankind continues without especial blowing of the spirit. There is a diffrenece between arabic words "Nafs" meaning "soul" and "Ruh" meaning "spirit". Do not mix both of these terms as one as it is misunderstanding of arabic terminology.
"The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him ?Be? and he was." 359
"Say ?We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make any distinction between them, and to Him we submit.? 384
"And their saying ?We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!? They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty. " 4157
"And We gave Moses the Scripture, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear proofs, and We supported Him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill!" 287
"Such messengers, We have preferred some over others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in rank, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the holy spirit. And had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes. " 2253
"O people of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God?s messenger and the fulfillment of His word to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not Say ?Trinity.? Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the Earth. God is enough as a caretaker." 4171
"God said ?O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the Scripture and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leaper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said ?This is clearly magic!?? 5110
"And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am creating a human being from a hardened clay.?
?So when I perfect him, and blow of My spirit in him, you shall yield to him.?
"Thus, all of the Angels yielded. "
Except for Satan, he refused to be with those who yielded." 1528-31"He sends down the Angels with the Spirit by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants ?That you shall warn that there is no god but I, so be aware of Me.? 162
"Say ?The holy Spirit has sent it down from your Lord with truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have submitted.? 16102
"And they ask you concerning the Spirit. Say ?The Spirit is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little.?
And if We wished, We would take away that which We have inspired to you. Then you would not find for yourself with it against Us a caretaker" 1785-86"And this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
It was sent down with the trusted Spirit.
Upon your heart, so that you would be of the warners.
In a clear Arabic tongue." 26192-195"Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scripture; and she was of those who were obedient." 6612
"If the two of you repent to God, then your hearts have listened. But if you band together against him, then God is his ally, and so are Gabriel and the righteous believers. Also, the Angels are his helpers."
Gabriel or Jibreel is the spirit and not a type of angel.It shows that Jibreel is the entity called "The spirit" or "The holy spirit". Nowhere in Quran Jibreel is described as an archangel or even as a type of angel. "The spirit" is not from inside God which God blew into Adam or Maryam but is an entity he Created and used for blowing in Adam and Maryam. Arabic word used in 1528-31 is "Ruhi" meaning "my spirit" which does not mean spirit related to the God's own nature because in 8930 arabic word "Jannati" means "my paradise" which does not mean paradise of God's nature. The spirit or the holy spirit or the trusted spirit is a creation used by God as an essence for the creation of new life without the need of male and female and is also used for inspirational purposes. Note that spirit or "ruh" is not same as "Nafs" or soul which is our real self.
And remember God is saying in Quran that Spirit is from the command of your Lord.The rest of normal humans have male and female parent so spirit is not blown into them as it was blown in Adam and Maryam. Soul or "Nafs" is entirely a different concept which represents the self which even Maryam, Jesus and Adam had as well and every man has it.
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Peace Fahad,
But in what manner were they unlike all other men?
If the Qur'an said that they were unlike other men, you'd have a leg to stand on. Nay, the Qur'an does not say that. It tells us that all messengers were men, that Isa and Mariam had to eat food like the rest of us, and that none should be held in higher esteem than another. Yet, if we accept this fallacy of specialness that's been placed upon these 2, then we MUST hold Adam and Isa above all prophets and messengers, for they were not created from a sperm and an egg but from a divine command outside of the God-created laws of nature that the rest of us are bound by.
And what about Musa?
Are both of his parents mentioned?
If not, was he also born miraculously?The fact is, brother, Allah's words do not run out. If He so chose, He could have named every parent of every person mentioned in the Qur'an. But He chose not to. Why? Probably because that knowledge would serve no purpose in our guidance.
Otherwise Allah could have said that Jesus' example is similar to someone like, say, Ishaaq or Yaqoob whose both parents are mentioned in Al-Quran.
Allah could have chosen alot of things. But what He did choose was the similarity between Isa and Adam. He further blessed us by explaining the similarity to us created from dust, via the "be" command. It's crystal clear. No need to add or search for more similarities. Allah already told us. No guesswork necessary.
If anything Allah would not leave out of the Qur'an, it would be spelling out in unambiguous language that Isa had no father. There would be entire surat explaining the process and purpose for something so monumentally against the grain of what we understand. Imagine, multiple ayat on monetary laws and a mere riddle to discover Isa's virgin birth?
Does that make any sense?
575 The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.
Were all the other messengers born of virgin mothers?
Why would Allah use the example of "they used to eat food", if not to explain to us that they were exactly like all other people?Peace,
Tay -
Peace Fahad
I must say, if Jesus is so unlike other humans because he has only one biological parent then why is Adam equally unlike Jesus as Jesus is to us since he has no biological parents at all? Unless you believe he did have a parent?
Joe
This is what I had said
...neither Jesus nor Adam required two parents to be created.
I didn't say that both of them didn't require any parents at all. Jesus required one. Adam didn't.
The way they are similar is that they were created by dust and the "be" command. The verse is not even remotely suggesting that they had parents like other men.
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Hi there,
I find it very sad that the book that once demanded that science be put above all religion, has now itself become the religion put above science.
Nadeem
Peace,
Indeed Nadeem......
)
Why boast about "science" when you can't even grasp the simple logic in verses 347 and 1920-22 ?! Your "science" gets kicked around by simple logic of Al-Quran!
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Peace,
5336 Nay, did he never hear of what was in the Scrolls of Moses?
5337 And of Abraham who fulfilled his obligations.So what were in those Scrolls of Moses? What was already proclaimed before Jesus?
5338 - i That no laden one shall bear the load of another.
5339 - ii And that every human being shall be responsible for, and
compensated for, his labor.
5340 - iii And that his effort (and not the outcome) will be seen.
5341 - iv And then he will be given the full wage.
5342 - v And that to your Lord is the final destination. (Your goal shall be the
Lord?s Rule on earth).
5343 - vi And that He it is Who makes laugh, and makes weep. (Nations that
establish His Rule will have inner happiness, whereas the others will be in
misery).
5344 - vii And that He it is Who gives death and gives life. (The rise and fall
of nations follow His Laws).5345 - viii And that He it is Who creates the two companions, the male and
the female (pairs and opposites among His creation).
5346 From gametes that unite.What, was this already in the Scrolls of Moses? This means people before Jesus also were made out of the male and female........
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Peace,
1777 This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in God's creation. Such is the pure system, but most people do not know.
3362 This is God's way with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's way.
3543 ...You will not find any change in God's way, and you will not find any bypass to His way.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
This is what I had said
...neither Jesus nor Adam required two parents to be created.
Jesus had Mary, who did Adam have?
I didn't say that both of them didn't require any parents at all.
Where was Adam's parent?
Jesus required one. Adam didn't.
So then isn't Adam as unlike to Jesus as Jesus is unlike to the rest of us?
We = 2 Parents
Jesus = 1 Parent
Adam = 0 Parents
The way they are similar is that they were created by dust and the "be" command.
That can apply to all of us . And God uses this command for anything .
'Do you disbelieve in Him Who created you from dust and then from a sperm drop, then He fashioned you into a man.'
The verse is not even remotely suggesting that they had parents like other men.
God gives us all the command to be born, to shape us, of the stuff of the earth (dust - dirt).
Joe