Jesus, Miracles, Virginbirth and the Nazarenes
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Peace,
Indeed Nadeem......
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Peace and greetings,
This verse clearly refutes all claims that Jesus is not a man,
"And We did not send any except men before you whom We inspired, so ask the people who received the Reminder if you do not know." 1643
Following is the story of Jesus
"And relate in the Scripture Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east.She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity.
She said ?I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are a person of faith.?
He said ?I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son.?
She said ?How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such??
He said ?It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained.?
So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place.
Then the birth pains came to her, by the trunk of a palm tree. She said ?I wish I had died before this, and became totally forgotten!?But then he called to her from beneath her ?Do not be sad, your Lord has made below you a stream.?
?And shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will cause ripe dates to fall upon you.?
?So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then Say ?I have declared a fast for the Almighty, and I will not talk today to any of mankind.??
Then she came to her people carrying him. They said ?O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!?
?O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!?
So she pointed to him. They said ?How can we talk to someone who is a child in a cradle?He said ?I am God?s servant, He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.And He made me blessed wherever I was, and He charged me with the oath of allegiance and towards betterment as long as I am alive." ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant.?
?And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the Day I am resurrected alive.?Such was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of the matter in which they doubt.God was never to take a son, be He glorified. If He decrees a matter, then He simply says to it ?Be,? and it is."1916-35
It is a misconception that Jesus is not a human. He is in fact a human. The God blew spirit twice in first case Adam and then Jesus. The rest of mankind continues without especial blowing of the spirit. There is a diffrenece between arabic words "Nafs" meaning "soul" and "Ruh" meaning "spirit". Do not mix both of these terms as one as it is misunderstanding of arabic terminology.
"The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him ?Be? and he was." 359
"Say ?We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make any distinction between them, and to Him we submit.? 384
"And their saying ?We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!? They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty. " 4157
"And We gave Moses the Scripture, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear proofs, and We supported Him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill!" 287
"Such messengers, We have preferred some over others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in rank, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the holy spirit. And had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes. " 2253
"O people of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God?s messenger and the fulfillment of His word to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not Say ?Trinity.? Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the Earth. God is enough as a caretaker." 4171
"God said ?O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the Scripture and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leaper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. And I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said ?This is clearly magic!?? 5110
"And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am creating a human being from a hardened clay.?
?So when I perfect him, and blow of My spirit in him, you shall yield to him.?
"Thus, all of the Angels yielded. "
Except for Satan, he refused to be with those who yielded." 1528-31"He sends down the Angels with the Spirit by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants ?That you shall warn that there is no god but I, so be aware of Me.? 162
"Say ?The holy Spirit has sent it down from your Lord with truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have submitted.? 16102
"And they ask you concerning the Spirit. Say ?The Spirit is from the command on my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little.?
And if We wished, We would take away that which We have inspired to you. Then you would not find for yourself with it against Us a caretaker" 1785-86"And this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
It was sent down with the trusted Spirit.
Upon your heart, so that you would be of the warners.
In a clear Arabic tongue." 26192-195"Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scripture; and she was of those who were obedient." 6612
"If the two of you repent to God, then your hearts have listened. But if you band together against him, then God is his ally, and so are Gabriel and the righteous believers. Also, the Angels are his helpers."
Gabriel or Jibreel is the spirit and not a type of angel.It shows that Jibreel is the entity called "The spirit" or "The holy spirit". Nowhere in Quran Jibreel is described as an archangel or even as a type of angel. "The spirit" is not from inside God which God blew into Adam or Maryam but is an entity he Created and used for blowing in Adam and Maryam. Arabic word used in 1528-31 is "Ruhi" meaning "my spirit" which does not mean spirit related to the God's own nature because in 8930 arabic word "Jannati" means "my paradise" which does not mean paradise of God's nature. The spirit or the holy spirit or the trusted spirit is a creation used by God as an essence for the creation of new life without the need of male and female and is also used for inspirational purposes. Note that spirit or "ruh" is not same as "Nafs" or soul which is our real self.
And remember God is saying in Quran that Spirit is from the command of your Lord.The rest of normal humans have male and female parent so spirit is not blown into them as it was blown in Adam and Maryam. Soul or "Nafs" is entirely a different concept which represents the self which even Maryam, Jesus and Adam had as well and every man has it.
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Peace Fahad,
But in what manner were they unlike all other men?
If the Qur'an said that they were unlike other men, you'd have a leg to stand on. Nay, the Qur'an does not say that. It tells us that all messengers were men, that Isa and Mariam had to eat food like the rest of us, and that none should be held in higher esteem than another. Yet, if we accept this fallacy of specialness that's been placed upon these 2, then we MUST hold Adam and Isa above all prophets and messengers, for they were not created from a sperm and an egg but from a divine command outside of the God-created laws of nature that the rest of us are bound by.
And what about Musa?
Are both of his parents mentioned?
If not, was he also born miraculously?The fact is, brother, Allah's words do not run out. If He so chose, He could have named every parent of every person mentioned in the Qur'an. But He chose not to. Why? Probably because that knowledge would serve no purpose in our guidance.
Otherwise Allah could have said that Jesus' example is similar to someone like, say, Ishaaq or Yaqoob whose both parents are mentioned in Al-Quran.
Allah could have chosen alot of things. But what He did choose was the similarity between Isa and Adam. He further blessed us by explaining the similarity to us created from dust, via the "be" command. It's crystal clear. No need to add or search for more similarities. Allah already told us. No guesswork necessary.
If anything Allah would not leave out of the Qur'an, it would be spelling out in unambiguous language that Isa had no father. There would be entire surat explaining the process and purpose for something so monumentally against the grain of what we understand. Imagine, multiple ayat on monetary laws and a mere riddle to discover Isa's virgin birth?
Does that make any sense?
575 The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.
Were all the other messengers born of virgin mothers?
Why would Allah use the example of "they used to eat food", if not to explain to us that they were exactly like all other people?Peace,
Tay -
Peace Fahad
I must say, if Jesus is so unlike other humans because he has only one biological parent then why is Adam equally unlike Jesus as Jesus is to us since he has no biological parents at all? Unless you believe he did have a parent?
Joe
This is what I had said
...neither Jesus nor Adam required two parents to be created.
I didn't say that both of them didn't require any parents at all. Jesus required one. Adam didn't.
The way they are similar is that they were created by dust and the "be" command. The verse is not even remotely suggesting that they had parents like other men.
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Hi there,
I find it very sad that the book that once demanded that science be put above all religion, has now itself become the religion put above science.
Nadeem
Peace,
Indeed Nadeem......
)
Why boast about "science" when you can't even grasp the simple logic in verses 347 and 1920-22 ?! Your "science" gets kicked around by simple logic of Al-Quran!
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Peace,
5336 Nay, did he never hear of what was in the Scrolls of Moses?
5337 And of Abraham who fulfilled his obligations.So what were in those Scrolls of Moses? What was already proclaimed before Jesus?
5338 - i That no laden one shall bear the load of another.
5339 - ii And that every human being shall be responsible for, and
compensated for, his labor.
5340 - iii And that his effort (and not the outcome) will be seen.
5341 - iv And then he will be given the full wage.
5342 - v And that to your Lord is the final destination. (Your goal shall be the
Lord?s Rule on earth).
5343 - vi And that He it is Who makes laugh, and makes weep. (Nations that
establish His Rule will have inner happiness, whereas the others will be in
misery).
5344 - vii And that He it is Who gives death and gives life. (The rise and fall
of nations follow His Laws).5345 - viii And that He it is Who creates the two companions, the male and
the female (pairs and opposites among His creation).
5346 From gametes that unite.What, was this already in the Scrolls of Moses? This means people before Jesus also were made out of the male and female........
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Peace,
1777 This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in God's creation. Such is the pure system, but most people do not know.
3362 This is God's way with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's way.
3543 ...You will not find any change in God's way, and you will not find any bypass to His way.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
This is what I had said
...neither Jesus nor Adam required two parents to be created.
Jesus had Mary, who did Adam have?
I didn't say that both of them didn't require any parents at all.
Where was Adam's parent?
Jesus required one. Adam didn't.
So then isn't Adam as unlike to Jesus as Jesus is unlike to the rest of us?
We = 2 Parents
Jesus = 1 Parent
Adam = 0 Parents
The way they are similar is that they were created by dust and the "be" command.
That can apply to all of us . And God uses this command for anything .
'Do you disbelieve in Him Who created you from dust and then from a sperm drop, then He fashioned you into a man.'
The verse is not even remotely suggesting that they had parents like other men.
God gives us all the command to be born, to shape us, of the stuff of the earth (dust - dirt).
Joe
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Peace
...neither Jesus nor Adam required two parents to be created.
Jesus had Mary, who did Adam have?
None.
I didn't say that both of them didn't require any parents at all.
Where was Adam's parent?
Nowhere.
Jesus required one. Adam didn't.
So then isn't Adam as unlike to Jesus as Jesus is unlike to the rest of us?
We = 2 Parents
Jesus = 1 Parent
Adam = 0 Parents
No. He is closer to Jesus than the rest of us. Because 1 is closer to 0 than 2.
The way they are similar is that they were created by dust and the "be" command.
That can apply to all of us . And God uses this command for anything .
'Do you disbelieve in Him Who created you from dust and then from a sperm drop, then He fashioned you into a man.'
But verse 18/37 mentions another ingredient that 3/59 does not the sperm drop.
The verse is not even remotely suggesting that they had parents like other men.
God gives us all the command to be born, to shape us, of the stuff of the earth (dust - dirt).
We also require two parents and the sperm drop. They didn't.
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Peace,
5336 Nay, did he never hear of what was in the Scrolls of Moses?
5337 And of Abraham who fulfilled his obligations.So what were in those Scrolls of Moses? What was already proclaimed before Jesus?
5338 - i That no laden one shall bear the load of another.
5339 - ii And that every human being shall be responsible for, and
compensated for, his labor.
5340 - iii And that his effort (and not the outcome) will be seen.
5341 - iv And then he will be given the full wage.
5342 - v And that to your Lord is the final destination. (Your goal shall be the
Lord?s Rule on earth).
5343 - vi And that He it is Who makes laugh, and makes weep. (Nations that
establish His Rule will have inner happiness, whereas the others will be in
misery).
5344 - vii And that He it is Who gives death and gives life. (The rise and fall
of nations follow His Laws).5345 - viii And that He it is Who creates the two companions, the male and
the female (pairs and opposites among His creation).
5346 From gametes that unite.What, was this already in the Scrolls of Moses? This means people before Jesus also were made out of the male and female........
I am not disputing that there were no males and females before Al-Quran. What I was saying is that there can exceptions. I gave examples from 2/185 and 5/116 and from Marium's story.
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Peace Fahad,
If the Qur'an said that they were unlike other men, you'd have a leg to stand on. Nay, the Qur'an does not say that.
I have two legs to stand on since Jesus was born without any man touching her mother(347 and 1920-22). That is very unlike other men.
It tells us that all messengers were men, that Isa and Mariam had to eat food like the rest of us,
They ate food like us , yeah.
and that none should be held in higher esteem than another. Yet, if we accept this fallacy of specialness that's been placed upon these 2, then we MUST hold Adam and Isa above all prophets and messengers, for they were not created from a sperm and an egg but from a divine command outside of the God-created laws of nature that the rest of us are bound by.
Allah has blessed some over others. Nothing wrong with that.
And what about Musa?
Are both of his parents mentioned?
If not, was he also born miraculously?Jesus' birth was miraculous because he was born without any man touching her mother, not only because his father is not mentioned.
The fact is, brother, Allah's words do not run out. If He so chose, He could have named every parent of every person mentioned in the Qur'an. But He chose not to. Why? Probably because that knowledge would serve no purpose in our guidance.
The actual answer to the "Why?" is found in 347 and 1920-22.
Allah could have chosen alot of things. But what He did choose was the similarity between Isa and Adam. He further blessed us by explaining the similarity to us created from dust, via the "be" command. It's crystal clear. No need to add or search for more similarities. Allah already told us. No guesswork necessary.
What did I add? And also, did you notice the lack of "sperm drop" in that verse?
If anything Allah would not leave out of the Qur'an, it would be spelling out in unambiguous language that Isa had no father. There would be entire surat explaining the process and purpose for something so monumentally against the grain of what we understand. Imagine, multiple ayat on monetary laws and a mere riddle to discover Isa's virgin birth?
Read 347 and 1920-22. These are no riddles.
Does that make any sense?
575 The Messiah son of Mary, is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away; and his mother was trustworthy, they used to eat the food. See how We clarify the signs for them, then see how they deviate.
Were all the other messengers born of virgin mothers?
Why would Allah use the example of "they used to eat food", if not to explain to us that they were exactly like all other people?To show that they ate food like others did.
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Peace Fahad,
What did I add?
The virgin birth myth and the idea that they were different from mankind. It's not in the ayah. You added it.
did you notice the lack of "sperm drop" in that verse?
Exactly like the ayah that mentions how Allah created us all.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Fahad
I fear that you are going about an interpretation the wrong way. If you put things together the picture will be more clear and I think you will perhaps see that a virgin birth miracle is not mentioned at all. Yes 3/59 may be the crux of your argument that Jesus is different, but it also does not mention that he was created from seeds which would mean that he was not born of a mother either. That is not the case in my opinion because it is shown that we are created from seeds . You are saying that because 3/59 does not mention what is scattered elsewhere in the quran, it should not apply to Jesus. I say no, it is wrong to do it that way because the piture is drawn best from adding all its components up.
I have two legs to stand on since Jesus was born without any man touching her mother(347 and 1920-22).
I do not think that is saying that Mary was NEVER touched by any man whatsoever (that is sexually), especially since she had child. It seems to imply that at this point Mary was still a virgin so she inquired about this nonesense of her having a child. God percieves into veils which our eyes cannot pierce and revealed a portion of the unseen to her. "It will be so" says God to her, pointing out that even though she is virgin now, she will soon have a son with a man who will fulfill this vision. That man perhaps was the malaika who came to her, & whether he died before Jesus was born, or was away and stayed in his land not coming back with Mary to her people is a matter of conjecture.
Joe
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peace
I was thinking that virgin birth would make sense (even when it is not part of God's way and law) if Jesus and his family were not people at all.
although now I'm thinking that the quran intends jesus to be a person like anyother.
The reason I can't deny the virgin birth is that it seems like that's what the ayah is implying. Because the malaika says that she will have a son, and she says 'no man has ever touched me'.
I don't think any other girl I know would say that if I told her she'll have a child. Most women know they'll have a child, even when they are virgins. And if she is a nun or something, she wouldn't say 'no man has touched me,' but 'no man will ever touch me.'
That, for me, is the crux of the issue. -
I am not disputing that there were no males and females before Al-Quran. What I was saying is that there can exceptions. I gave examples from 2/185 and 5/116 and from Marium's story.
Peace,
The verses clearly say that all humans are created to the merging of male and female cells, and this is refered to into the books of Moses and Abraham. This is before Jesus. There are no exceptions mentioned in the Quran. 2185 and 5116 have nothing to do with a virgin birth. The story on Mary tells she was not touched by men only when she was told she was gonna have child. It doesn't say at all she would have a virgin birth. This is a forced interpretation of the story. The cross-reference shows that Allah will not deviate from His laws, and that this Law of male and female cells merging also was present before Jesus. No exceptions are mentioned in the Quran.
5345 And He is the One who created the pair, male and female.
5346 From a seed that is put forth.That which is translated as seed, literally means 'ejaculated drop'. Only the seed of a male is ejaculated, not the egg of a woman. So there is no exception made.
Jesus is as adam
359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.
Adam means all mankind
711 And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Malikah "Submit to Adam=humankind;" so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.Allah doesn't change His creation, again NO exceptions
1827 And recite what has been inspired to you from your Lord's Scripture, there is no changing His kalimat, His Commands, Decree's, Plan, Design and Creation. And you will not find besides Him any refuge. -
I am not disputing that there were no males and females before Al-Quran. What I was saying is that there can exceptions. I gave examples from 2/185 and 5/116 and from Marium's story.
The verses clearly say that all humans are created to the merging of male and female cells,
All humans? Where is that?
and this is refered to into the books of Moses and Abraham. This is before Jesus.
Before Jesus? So what?
There are no exceptions mentioned in the Quran.
Remember Marium's kid?
2185 and 5116 have nothing to do with a virgin birth.
These verse show how there can be exceptions.
If they don't have anything to do with Jesus' birth, then 4913 doesn't have anything to do with Jesus' birth either. So stop presenting it as an argument.
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Allah doesn't change His creation, again NO exceptions
1827 And recite what has been inspired to you from your Lord's Scripture, there is no changing His kalimat, His Commands, Decree's, Plan, Design and Creation. And you will not find besides Him any refuge."Sunnat of Allah" verses not working anymore?
This proves nothing against the virginbirth. It is referring to His words. For example , if He says "be"(His word) to make something happen, it cannot be changed. Same for all His other words.
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Peace,
Kalimat means more then 'words', it refers to design and command in the creation. And this is His sunnatilleh. I don't know what youa re thinking, but till now you haven't brought in any real evidence. Only a personal intepretation on what Mary's reaction means, which is completely subjective and contradicting with other verses of the Quran.