Jesus, Miracles, Virginbirth and the Nazarenes
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Peace Fahad,
Allah has made it pretty simple, yet we strive to complicate things.
All men/women are created via sperm and egg.
Isa and Adam were men.
Allah's way does not change.Can it be any more clear?
Does Allah have to tell us who else was created from sperm and egg?I leave you in peace,
TayCan you please give your understanding of 'Allah's sunnat'(if you can back it by any verse at all) before you leave? I have asked the same question to Arnold and Phoenix1. No response yet.
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peace,
Allah's sunnat, or God's way, is universal law. For example, all men are created from sperm and egg. The gravitational constant is always constant. E always equals mc^2. Light always reflects off a mirror.
The reason the quran says that god's way never changes is precisely so that we don't start believing in supernatural miracles. Because they are AGAINST God's way/laws.
If Tay and Arnold are right that Jesus is classified as a man, then I agree that there is no such thing as "virgin birth" in the quran.
I'll quote Tay
"Allah has made it pretty simple...
All men/women are created via sperm and egg.
Isa and Adam were men.
Allah's way does not change." -
Peace Fahad,
Arnold answered you on page 2. I provided the ayat which spell it out - God's way/laws. Now that I've taken your bait, you can go ahead and explain to us that God's way as mentioned in the qur'an is applicable only in the context in which it's expressed in each particular ayah.
Fact is, Fahad, we stand on different sides of this topic and to further pursue it would be fruitless. I cannot subscribe to the idea that God's laws constantly change throughout time just to build a case for some previous supernatural occurrences. The further and deeper implications of this "belief" are far more paramount than whether or not Isa had a father. For, if I accept your understanding (which, by the way predates islam, christianity, and isa himself), then I must also accept a wavering, dabbling Creator that intervenes to provide an unverifiable, cloudy example but does not intervene to alleviate suffering.
It all ties together.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Fahad,
Arnold answered you on page 2. I provided the ayat which spell it out - God's way/laws. Now that I've taken your bait, you can go ahead and explain to us that God's way as mentioned in the qur'an is applicable only in the context in which it's expressed in each particular ayah.
You did not provide the ayat which spells it out. You left out those ayaat on purpose. Here, this is what you had provided
1777 This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.
but you left out 17/76 which spells out sunnat of Allah "And they nearly frightened you to drive you out of the land. But in that case, they would have shortly been destroyed after you were gone." (Free-Minds translation)
Then you provided verse ...
3362 This is God's way with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's way.
but you left out 33/60-61 which spells out the sunnat of Allah "If the hypocrites, and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city do not refrain, then We will let you overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your neighbours except for a short while."
Then you provided...
3543 ...You will not find any change in God's way, and you will not find any bypass to His way.
but left out the first part of the verse which spells out the sunnat of Allah
35/43 "Arrogance on earth, and evil scheming. And the evil schemes only backfire on those who scheme them. Were they expecting anything different from the ways used on the people of the past?"....
That is what Allah calls His sunnat, the parts which you left out.
Who do you think you are deceiving?!
Fact is, Fahad, we stand on different sides of this topic and to further pursue it would be fruitless. I cannot subscribe to the idea that God's laws constantly change throughout time just to build a case for some previous supernatural occurrences.
You guys are not paying attention to what Allah calls His sunnat, but you are making up your own definitions of Allah's sunnat in order to rationalize Al-Quran.
The further and deeper implications of this "belief" are far more paramount than whether or not Isa had a father. For, if I accept your understanding (which, by the way predates islam, christianity, and isa himself), then I must also accept a wavering, dabbling Creator that intervenes to provide an unverifiable, cloudy example but does not intervene to alleviate suffering.
Unverifiable example?! If God is giving you an example, that is the ultimate verification! Unless of course, if you doubt the book wherein there is no doubt that it is from the Lord of the worlds.
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The same according to Parwez?
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_019.htm
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(O Rasool!) Now relate from this Book (Quran) the story of Mary, (starting from the time) when after abandoning her clerical life she moved towards the east (to her village.)
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(The clerical life and the unpleasant events occuring there had such an adverse effect on her mind that) There also she lived in seclusion, apart from others. In order to obliterate these effects, We introduced positive thoughts in her mind and pleasant aspects of life appeared to her (in her dream) as a person.
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(Mary was frightened at this sight and exclaimed) "I seek the protection of Ar-Rahman from you (if you have any regard and respect for His Laws).?
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He answered, "(There is no cause to become alarmed because) I have only brought a message from your Rabb (344). He is going to bestow on you a well developed son.?
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She said, "How can I have a son when no man has ever touched me.? (When I was in the temple, I lived a virtuous life; and since I came out, I have not got married as this is against the clerical laws ~ 346; 1928.)
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He said, "Whatever I have told you, will happen according to Allah's law of creation (346). This is easy for Him (to remove all the hindrances which are in your mind and which perturb you ~ 199). Allah has also said that this child will not be like other children. He will be from our side an embodiment of Rahmat for the people; and a testimonial for truth and falsehood. (Whoever brings Eiman on his Nabuwat will be on the right path, while the one who rejects it will be wrong.) And this is already decreed by Us (that the child will be Our Messenger ~ 347).
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(And gradually all impediments were removed and the fear of clerical taboos vanished from Mary's mind. At the same time, in spite of warnings and intimidation from the priests, one person agreed to marry Mary.) In time Mary conceived the child and consequently they (both of them) considered it appropriate to move to a far off place (so that the child would be born at a place where no one knew them; and where they would be safe from the wrath and accusations of the priests).
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_003.htm
358-59 Moving from the Jews to the Christians, take up their claim that Jesus was the son of Allah. Tell them ?The birth of Jesus is like the birth of any other human being. Life emerged from inanimate objects and passing through evolutionary stages culminated in human form. This is the truth from Allah and there is no room for doubt or dispute in this matter.?
Above interprets Quran to conform to unproven evolution theory which contradicts Quran that animals, jinns, things seen/unseen, and humans are a distinct creation including identical twins who have unique fingerprints.
1770 And We have honoured the Children of Adam and carried them in the land and the sea, and We have provided for them of the good things, and We have preferred them over many of those We created in a marked preference.
Specific example was given for a reason else any human would suffice for comparison.
359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.
347 She said "My Lord, how can I have a son when no human has touched me?" He said "It is thus that God creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it "Be," and it is."
The ?Be? part is the analogy.
Peace
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Peace Fahad,
If God is giving you an example, that is the ultimate verification!
And of course, it boils down to..."because God said so". Never mind the inconsistency and contradiction and myth that predates the very person we're discussing. As I said, we stand on diametrically opposite sides of this issue.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
peace Fahad,
What it all boils down to is whether you have blind faith in the quran or not.
Now I don't care what the right answer is, as long as I can verify it.
You don't care for verification. To you, whatever the quran says is enough, because the quran says it is from god.
I think you have believe the quran blindly and that belief is holding you back in finding the true understanding of the verses.and you never really answered my question, what if I write a book which says "this book is the truth, it is from god, it is perfect, it is the criterion, and you should burn every copy of the quran. And you have to care about this book or you will die." Will you follow that book? why or why not?
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peace Fahad,
What it all boils down to is whether you have blind faith in the quran or not.It boils down to whether I believe in the unseen or not. I do.
Now I don't care what the right answer is, as long as I can verify it.
I have given you all the verification from Al-Quran. I did not add to it like others it. And you might agree that , at least 'Quranically' , the virginbirth story makes sense, even if it is symbolic.
You don't care for verification. To you, whatever the quran says is enough, because the quran says it is from god.
If you have doubts about Quran's divinity, why don't you deal with them first in the "Quran's Divinity" section? Instead of raising the topic in every other thread, like I have pointed out to you before too.
I think you have believe the quran blindly and that belief is holding you back in finding the true understanding of the verses.
I am not arguing whether the virginbirth is a symbolic story or real. You said you consider it symbolic, and I didn't argue about that. What I am saying is that according to Al-Quran, Jesus was born of a virgin mother. If it sounds fictional to you, so be it. I will not try to rationalize the stories like some here are doing, because that will be dishonesty on my part. I present the story just as Al-Quran presents it. That is the true understanding. That is what Al-Quran is saying. If it sounds fictional to people, they can reject Al-Quran, because by rationalizing it, they are not believing in it anyway.
and you never really answered my question, what if I write a book which says "this book is the truth, it is from god, it is perfect, it is the criterion, and you should burn every copy of the quran. And you have to care about this book or you will die." Will you follow that book? why or why not?
Like I said before, who cares about your book?!
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peace,
Allah's sunnat, or God's way, is universal law. For example, all men are created from sperm and egg. The gravitational constant is always constant. E always equals mc^2. Light always reflects off a mirror.
The reason the quran says that god's way never changes is precisely so that we don't start believing in supernatural miracles. Because they are AGAINST God's way/laws.There is no support in Al-Quran for this understanding of 'Allah's sunnat'.
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fahad wrote
What I am saying is that according to Al-Quran, Jesus was born of a virgin mother.i will agree with u that according to quran jesus did not have a father! -)
infact, i think i have discussed this very thing on this very site...dont remember who the person was, but i remember giving the verse where quran gives the similitude of adam...and very soon the person decided to peace out..i think! -)
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359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.
So the question here is Who is Adam then? Well adam comes from Adami, which means blackskinned male as well mankind in total. For example, in 711
711 And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Malikah "Submit to Adam=humankind;" so they submitted except for Satan, he was not of those who submitted.
The word koen in 359 refers to the proces of creation, but is a slow process as a Yaum=timespan for God is 1000 yaums=timespans for us.
Just like all humans, Jesus was made out of a mixture of male and female cells, God even makes it extra clear that Jesus is just like any other human by comparing him to adam, all mankind. Adam, or the first humans, as is shown by the second meaning of 'blackskinned human', was made in stages and was a khalifah, a successor of the earlier human species . So it doesn't matter if you translate Adam with all of Mankind or just with the first humans, we all have been created in stages. That it refers to all of mankind is also clear from the verses 1837, 225 and 3020, where all humans are reminded they are created out of dust. And also the first humans were created through stages of guided evolution
- God created every moving thing from water One crawls on its belly, one walks on two legs, another moves on four. God creates whatsoever He will. Indeed God has power over everything.
7114 And He created you in stages/phases.
7117The divine planner(Allah) has raised you up from the earth in the form of a (geneological) tree.6133 "If (God) wills, He destroys you and in your place appoints whom He wills as SUCCESSORS just as He brought you forth from the descendants of other peoples."
- Man We fashioned from fermented clay dried tingling hard,
"With the making of the first step to the primal soup which contains all basicelements for life to a living organism, we stumble upon a lot of problems. One of the problems is the UV-radiation of the sun. We are protected by our skin and the earth's ozonlayer from the worst radiation. The young earth didn't have a protecting ozonlayer, so the UV-radiation reached freely the atmosphere and the top waterlayers. A second problem is that the most simple organic substances can move in all directions in a watery substance. For life to emerge, it is necassery that the substances remain together, a third problem is the sensitivity of DNA and RNA, mainly the carbonic-sugars, which brake apart easy.
There must have happened two things will the substances of the primal soup evolve to something more complicating, to life. The substances must remain together and protected against harmfull influences from outside. The second most important theory is that of the clayparticles. These particles are common on earth. They're layered, smaller then two micrometre and can bind all organic molecules and make them react with each other. On the surface of the clayparticles, can by example, RNA been build up from simple molecules. Next to that, enhance the clayparticles, the forming of fatty-acids, in which an enviroment can evolve which is seperated from the outside world. The walls of every cell, of plants, animals and fungies, are build up out of double layered fatty-acids. In a solution of fatty-acids together with clayparticles, bindings emerge of double layered fatty-acids. If on the surface of the inclosed clayparticles, molecules get 'stuck', this can be most important for the origins of life, then by this theory can we explain the build of the primitive cell."
Professor dr. Stephen B.J.Menken, Chief Evolutionbiologist of Amsterdam UniversitySo lets summarize it again
1.ALL humans are made out of sperm and an egg, NO exceptions made.
2.ALL humans are created from male and female, NO exceptions made.
3.Jesus is like Adam, which both means 'first humans' and Mankind in total, which both are created in stages and phases according to Allah's law of creation. And Allah never changes His laws (634, 6116, 1064, 1777, 1827, 3338, 3362, 3543, 4085, 4823).
4.If the common believe of virginbirth was not there, i would doubt anyone would ever have read virginbirth from the Quran. The common filled subconciousness has determined the interpretation more then people like to admit.
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arnold yasin wrote
-)359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.
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4.If the common believe of virginbirth was not there, i would doubt you would ever have questioned my article or would have read virginbirth from the Quran. The common filled subconciousness has determined the interpretation more then people like to admit.
by any chance...was that for me ? -)
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Like I said before, who cares about your book?!
You can't not care about my book! my book says that you must care about it! and my book is the truth from god! how can you not follow the truth from god? and it is the true criterion, and it says that the quran is a fake criterion. So you must judge everything by my book.
Since you use circular logic to defend the quran, and since you believe in it blindly, I am perfectly sure that if I had in fact written a book that said all of the above things, you would believe in it. Because, to you, it's words would be enough. You wouldn't need any outside evidence. If my book said you have donkey ears, you'd believe it, because it is the truth from god. If my book told you to burn all copies of the quran, you'd do it because my book said so, and because my book is the truth from god.
And if I don't take any credit for writing the book (and no one does), then Ahmed Baghat can join you in the burning of qurans too.
peace -
You can't not care about my book! my book says that you must care about it!
I CAN not care about your book, because this is a Quranic discussion forum, not a bulls*** discussion forum. If I was in a bulls*** themed forum, I would have given your book a thought.
and my book is the truth from god!
Hehe?. YOUR book is from YOU, not from god!
Since you use circular logic to defend the quran,
You mean that quoting from Al-Quran to prove what it is actually saying, is circular logic?! How? Tell me.
...and since you believe in it blindly, ...
I don?t believe blindly, you idiot. There is a difference between 'belief in the unseen' and 'blind belief'. But you are not capable of understanding that, right?
I am perfectly sure that if I had in fact written a book that said all of the above things, you would believe in it.
I will not but you might believe in it, because you keep changing your position, you are so confused, you can?t even make up your mind about Marium?s response. You admitted that you are in a confused state. You usually are.
And why don't write that book and prove that I will believe in it? You seem pretty sure.
Because, to you, it's words would be enough. You wouldn't need any outside evidence.
How would "outside evidence" have changed what Al-Quran is saying inside it? Tell me. Show me how logical you are. Prove that you are not a mental retard.
If my book said you have donkey ears, you'd believe it, because it is the truth from god. If my book told you to burn all copies of the quran, you'd do it because my book said so, and because my book is the truth from god.
And if I don't take any credit for writing the book (and no one does), then Ahmed Baghat can join you in the burning of qurans too.Why do you need to bring up your favourite topic "Quran isn't the word of God", whenever your understanding of the verses is cornered? Or is the answer in my question, that it is because you are cornered? If you want to question Al-Quran's divinity all the time, then restrict yourself to the "Quran Divinity" section? Go fart there. That section was created so you and your type don?t fart all over the forum. Can you understand?
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fahad wrote
What I am saying is that according to Al-Quran, Jesus was born of a virgin mother.i will agree with u that according to quran jesus did not have a father! -)
infact, i think i have discussed this very thing on this very site...dont remember who the person was, but i remember giving the verse where quran gives the similitude of adam...and very soon the person decided to peace out..i think! -)
Yeah!
arnold yasin wrote
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359 The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.
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4.If the common believe of virginbirth was not there, i would doubt you would ever have questioned my article or would have read virginbirth from the Quran. The common filled subconciousness has determined the interpretation more then people like to admit.
by any chance...was that for me ? -)
Initially for me, but then copy/pasted for you ) .
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peace Fahad
You mean that quoting from Al-Quran to prove what it is actually saying, is circular logic?! How? Tell me.
Not to prove what it is actually saying, but to prove that it is right.
You claim that your interpretation is the true one, but when there is no outside evidence, you say that you don't need it, because the quran's words are enough for you.I don?t believe blindly, you idiot. There is a difference between 'belief in the unseen' and 'blind belief'. But you are not capable of understanding that, right?
You do believe blindly if you ignore "outside" facts to support your understanding of the quran (even if that is actually what the quran is saying.) But, even if you do "believe in the unseen," that kind of belief does require blind faith and there's no going around that fact. It's simple-if you don't have evidence to support what you believe, then it is blind. It has nothing to do with whether you are right or not.
I will not but you might believe in it, because you keep changing your position, you are so confused, you can?t even make up your mind about Marium?s response. You admitted that you are in a confused state. You usually are.
I am confused about certain things. I'm sure everybody is (although some don't like to admit it). That doesn't mean I don't have the ability to think. And I don't "keep changing" my position either. I am humble enough to admit when I am wrong, and open minded enough to consider the other argument and play the devil's advocate to get some answers.
Why do you need to bring up your favourite topic "Quran isn't the word of God", whenever your understanding of the verses is cornered? Or is the answer in my question, that it is because you are cornered? If you want to question Al-Quran's divinity all the time, then restrict yourself to the "Quran Divinity" section? Go fart there. That section was created so you and your type don?t fart all over the forum. Can you understand?
I'm not talking about quranic divinity. I'm talking about my book vs. the quran. Why would you believe in one and not the other. That's my question, and it'd be great if you could answer that for me.
What makes the quran true? and what makes my book false? how do you judge them? which one is right? -
peace
Yes. Maybe. I have yet to verify all of it. If I find that every single thing in it is true, then every single thing in it will be from god.
But it's not important what you believe, but whether you have a good reason to believe it or not. If you don't, then you are just following your desires.