Research on the Arabic meanings of Jinn and the Quranic contexts

[thegod]

arnold yasin wrote
Here is my result after a long research on the word Jinn as given in the Quran and the Arabic language

http//19.org/index.php?id=91,417,0,0,1,0

ur hypothesis (quite like another 1 i remember reading here) has many assumptions, and grows on these! -)

much of the reference is extra-quranic...and does not seem to contribute to an understanding in the light of quran...rather in a light of other than quran's! -)

peace! -)

[maxq]

Hi thegod,
I guess people will believe what they continute to choose to believe... there has been enough discussion on the Djin... I completely agree with Arnold and have come to the same conclusion with independent analysis.
If you choose to believe in folklore, that's your choice.

[thegod]

maxq wrote
Hi thegod,

hi maxq! -)

I guess people will believe what they continute to choose to believe...

yeah..i think so too! -)

there has been enough discussion on the Djin...

if that's what u feel! -)

I completely agree with Arnold and have come to the same conclusion with independent analysis.

cool...perhaps u read the same books! -)

If you choose to believe in folklore, that's your choice.

if i do! -)

...by ur own criteron and going by what u believe in at the moment...u do...ur "independently analysed" belief has been around for a long time!

..but like u said...its ur choice! -)

[arnoldyasin]

ur hypothesis (quite like another 1 i remember reading here) has many assumptions, and grows on these! -)

much of the reference is extra-quranic...and does not seem to contribute to an understanding in the light of quran...rather in a light of other than quran's! -)

peace! -)

Peace,

dear not-thegod, the word jinn is a description of an attribute, this can be shared by many things. It is not a title of a species. So i have researched what the attribute describes according to the context of the verses.

If you draw a different conclusion that the description is a title, then please do so. But as long as you can't go into the subject with more depth, all of your feedback is unfounded.

Peace...

[maxq]

hi maxq! -)

Hey man, if you can change your name ID, that would be great... it is really disturbing to address you the way your current ID is. Please do not mind...

cool...perhaps u read the same books! -)

or not...

if i do! -)

and how can you prove the "if"?

...by ur own criteron and going by what u believe in at the moment...u do...ur "independently analysed" belief has been around for a long time!
agreed, but one is commanded not to believe in whatever is said by someone else... one must verify him/herself, independently. Refer to 1736!

..but like u said...its ur choice! -)

and yours

[thegod]

arnod yasin wrote
dear not-thegod,

-S ...yes dear bro... -)

the word jinn is a description of an attribute, this can be shared by many things. It is not a title of a species.

...that it cannot be used as a "title" to denote a "species"...a la "insan"... is what u will establish...right?

So i have researched what the attribute describes according to the context of the verses.

cool! -)

If you draw a different conclusion that the description is a title, then please do so.

that exactly is the point...to draw a conclusion...but even before u establish ur claim.....u make the assumption that it is correct! -)

below i quote from ur article

One of the biggest problems today with interpretation of the Quran, is the concept of leaving words untranslated. The idea that some words are titles, fixed meanings, can create confusing and contradicting subjects. Also it has taken away many important messages which Allah through the Quran tries to teach us. So what Ill try to show in this book, is that the Quran contains no titles, except for a few names of persons and places. Thus approaching words in the Quran, not as titles, but as words with meanings itself relevant through the contexts of the verses. Making it subjective to the context, and not one-given meaning as would be, by approaching it as titles. Leaving the words not untranslated, or a filled in meaning from history, but translating them exactly to what they mean in the Arabic. This can give surprising and exciting results.

there...u already conclude...and u have hardly started...that

it has taken away many important messages which Allah through the Quran tries to teach us.

ok..let's say it's kinda foreword or something...and that u will prove ur point ahead....let's read further

So what Ill try to show in this book, is that the Quran contains no titles, except for a few names of persons and places.

yes...u say u will try to show...but i dont see where u show this...u simply start applying ur assumption!

below is an illustration

The verses where Iblis and shaitan are used, are almost all directly linked to humans creation, and thus coincides with something within humans itself, that was created first/before/ thought up.

"..and thus coincides with something within humans itself, that was created first/before/ thought up."

how did u conclude that?

But as long as you can't go into the subject with more depth, all of your feedback is unfounded.

looking forward to hearing from u! -)

speaking of unfounded stuff...if i remember correctly...u had once copy-pasted an article on jesus's death...and claimed that it (the article) was irrefutable!

...the article claimed that "wafat" in the context of quran means death and (that) taking away the soul is nothing but death....

...i had pointed this out but u didnt respond...guess u missed it...or maybe i missed it...anyhow...would be nice to get ur response to that too!

not a discussion...just whether u agree with that article's claim! -)

peace! peace! -)

[thegod]

yes...u say u will try to show...but i dont see where u show this...u simply start applying ur assumption!

the above should read "yes...u say u will try to show...but i dont see where u show this...u simply start applying ur assumption! -)"

[thegod]

maxq wrote
Hey man, if you can change your name ID, that would be great...

i dont aim to stay around that long...in the meanwhile i can offer atleast 3 possible solutions

...think of thegod as a single nonsensical word...no meaning at all...(i think i read somewhere that if a word has a meaning it cannot be a "name/proper noun&quot....thats 1 (solution)! -)

it is really disturbing to address you the way your current ID is.

-( ...but u dont need to addess me this way (if the 1st solution fails)

...use tg instead of thegod! that's second! -)

third not-thegod...yeah...a bit lenghty! -)

Please do not mind...

not at all bro! -)

or not...

yeah...perhaps not! -)

and how can you prove the "if"?

?

agreed, but one is commanded not to believe in whatever is said by someone else...

do u know my beliefs? or on what i have based my beliefs? -)

...where did the folklore fly in from? -)

one must verify him/herself, independently. Refer to 1736!

1736...hmmm...yeah...i remember...but that will be another tale in itself! -S

okay..not a snub or something...but now that u have talked about verification...when u quote a historian or a lexicologist...do u verify the information s/he provides?

and yours

yeah bro! -)

[thegod]

i remember somebody once said djinns are ur fantasies...and i remarked that he should note that he said "ur fantasies"...but u dont say "ur djinns"!

...a similar propostion

v have read in the quran "zannakum", "hawahu", "nafsaka"...

...show me an instance of djinnahu..djinnakum..or like! -)

[maxq]

v have read in the quran "zannakum", "hawahu", "nafsaka"...

...show me an instance of djinnahu..djinnakum..or like! -)

yes precisely, Djin refers not to just a part of our conscious, but rather an attribute of being concealed... from that perspective, if there is extraterristrial life in the universe, whose existance is hidden from us, can also be considered "Djin". And they need not be made of energy... nafs is not the same kind of attribute bro.

[nerspi]

peace

what about
3837 And the devils, building and diving.
YUSUFALI As also the evil ones, (including) every kind of builder and diver,-
PICKTHAL And the unruly, every builder and diver (made We subservient),
SHAKIR And the shaitans, every builder and diver,

it implies here that devils (evil ones or unruly or shaitans) worked for solomon, so are these things mentined humans who let their desperate side take over or beings made of actual fire?

can anyone please tell me who are the ones in control.
and where is our good side? if the desperate side refused to serve, who did serve? the ones in control, who are they?
are they our good side or are they beings made of actual light?

[maxq]

Salam nerspi,

That depends how you translate the words... Shayaateen does not necessarily mean supernatural devilish beings, but rather those who are unruley and defiant, including men themselves - refer to the last three verses of chapter 114. And winds made subserviant does not mean David was given supernatural powers. Mankind has harnessed the power of wind and water in the last two centuries... foremost example is electric power. These verses mean that Soloman may have been the first king in this region to realize the use of science and reason as a means of progress in Southern Arabia (not unlike Kurosh/Cyrus, which makes for an interesting parallel.)

Now let us look at the translation

3835 Solomon prayed, "O My Lord! Absolve my imperfections and bestow upon me the gift an unprecedented (leadership of a) kingdom. Verily, You are the Giver of Gifts.?

3836 So We gave him the knowledge (which you, mankind, will eventually call science,) of making the wind serve him It took (his ships) where (he) intended.

3837 And (for building and driving his ships, We) made subservient to him (even) the ravenous/defiant (men) ? every kind of builder and navigator.

Regards,
Max

[thegod]

maxq wrote
yes precisely, Djin refers not to just a part of our conscious,

whether it (djinn) refers to a part of our conscious is what v are discussing! -)

but rather an attribute of being concealed...from that perspective, if there is extraterristrial life in the universe, whose existance is hidden from us, can also be considered "Djin".

v are trying to determine whether the quran rules out usage of the word "djinn" to denote a certain creation...the way it uses the word "insan" to denote another creation! -)

And they need not be made of energy...

?

nafs is not the same kind of attribute bro.

nafs...zanna...hawa...all of these are related to humans...

and have been used in a way that denotes that they belong to/are part of humans
...nafsaka
...hawahu
...zannakum
...bagyihim

but v find no such usage of the word "djinn"! -)

all there is, is an assumption that "djinn" in some verses means "part of our conscious"! -)

and yeah bro...what about the verification thing? -)

[maxq]

you're going on a tanjent ntg

[thegod]

nerspi wrote
what about
3837 And the devils, building and diving.
YUSUFALI As also the evil ones, (including) every kind of builder and diver,-
PICKTHAL And the unruly, every builder and diver (made We subservient),
SHAKIR And the shaitans, every builder and diver,

it implies here that devils (evil ones or unruly or shaitans) worked for solomon, so are these things mentined humans who let their desperate side take over or beings made of actual fire?

can anyone please tell me who are the ones in control.
and where is our good side? if the desperate side refused to serve, who did serve? the ones in control, who are they?
are they our good side or are they beings made of actual light?

the word "shaytan" is used for both humans and djinns...solomon's armies also consisted of djinns, and i feel these djinns were the shayatin from amongst them! -)

peace! -)

[maxq]

Like I said... you're free to choose to believe in fairytales. Goodbye!

[thegod]

maxq wrote
you're going on a tanjent ntg

if u can provide anything from quran...feel free to do so! -)

Like I said... you're free to choose to believe in fairytales. Goodbye!

i will take that as ur inability to substantiate ur assumptions...

but i appreciate that u attempted to do so! -)

and yes...the verification part still remains...do u verify when u quote somebody...as per ur understanding of 1736? -)

[maxq]

One simple quiz for anyone reading this thread

114004
YUSUFALI (Say I seek refuge) from the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),- ok so far
PICKTHAL (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the sneaking whisperer, ok so far
SHAKIR (Say I seek refuge) from the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan), ok so far

114005
YUSUFALI (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- ok so far
PICKTHAL Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind, ok so far
SHAKIR Who whispers into the hearts of men, ok so far

114006
YUSUFALI Among Jinns and among men. (so jinns are from mankind??)
PICKTHAL Of the jinn and of mankind. (again!)
SHAKIR From among the jinn and the men. (so men/women can whisper into the hearts/chests of other men/women too.. ok!? Well who whispers in the hearts of jinns??)

6100 Yet, they set up beside GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims. (Jesus Christ was a man whereas Uzza is nothing but Venus, a celestial object, and was venerated as such!! Refer to 4137, 184 and 5319 ... Were Jesus and Uzza created from fire??)

6128 The day will come when He summons all of them (and says) "O you jinns, you have claimed multitudes of humans." Their human companions will say, "Our Lord, we enjoyed each others' company until we wasted the life span You had set for us." He will say, "The Fire be your dwelling-place." They abide therein forever, in accordance with GOD's will. Your Lord is Wise, Omniscient. (So jinns will live in fire eh? They should feel right at home if they are made of fire. Is Allah trying to make jinns comfortable? And if fire is used symbolically for hell, then why do people take it literally for "jinns made from fire"?)

(On a sidenote, I asked this question from a mullah, and he said "The fire of hell is hotter!" with such surity as if he'd been there lolz)

What I believe are correct renditions

1144 "From the evil of the whisperings of the blinding desire.
1145 That whispers in peoples' conscious. (5016) (notice sudoor, not quloob, signifies active thought process)
1146 From the hidden (psyche that rationalizes the evil,) as well as (through temptations that come from) people."

6100 Yet, there are people who falsely attribute Divinity to the unseen/intangible (products of their psyche Eg. Christ, Allat/Venus etc.). But He has created them (referring to the immortalized/venerated people or celestial objects), and people assign sons and daughters to Him out of sheer ignorance. Glorified, Exalted is He, infinitely Above what they ascribe to Him.

6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, O you (gypsies, nomads, witch-doctors and shamans that spend their lives in wilderness/solitude and) who revealed themselves seldom (to city/village dwellers)! You have seduced many of the urban (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics). Their urbanite copmpanions/friends will say, Our Lord! We enjoyed each others company (the jinn in misleading and the ins in following, while both are mislead by their respective desires) until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).
OR
6128 The day will come when He gathers all of them and says, O you who remained hidden (in your objectives to those you mislead)! You have seduced many among mankind (with your superstitious beliefs and covert tactics). Those among the people who supported them will say, Our Lord! We enjoyed each others company until we wasted a life span You had given us." He will say, Fire is your home. Abide therein forever according to Allah's Design." Verily, (O Messenger) your Lord is Wise, Knowing. (He has designed His Laws in all Wisdom and Knowledge).

Unless jinns are not a separate species, but an attribute that makes that group different from the INS within the same species, and points to some inside force that is native to us, and to intangibles we falsely venerate, the jinn-being theory creates numerous contradictions in the Quran.

I am reiterating that we must be pragmatic! The Quran is not a fairytale!

[maxq]

I have nothing more to say to you ntg... you have to find your own way. Best of luck and God bless.

[thegod]

maxq wrote
I have nothing more to say to you ntg... you have to find your own way. Best of luck and God bless.

that's ok...had somebody asked me to show instances of djinnakum or djinnahu....

...or that djinn is part of our conscious...

...i dont think i would have anything to say either! -)

but what does surprise me is that u asked me to refer to 1736...but u are not explaining to me how u apply it!

-)

best of luck! -)