Translation or Explanation? (I find this interesting)
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Peace Bro Damon
I agree with you. Meanings always get lost in translation. Good reminder for us, thanks!
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Salam,
I would like to comment on the quote given in this thread (
Al Quraan does not need translations...
Every word from one language can be translated into another language. Sometimes one word from Arabic requires more than one word in english in order for the significance of the word to be understood. But it can be done. Every language can be translated into another language, although, admittedly , this is very difficult to do accurately.
....It needs explanations/clarifications in the language of the people,...
An explanation/clarification of one language into another would be the definition of a translation.
....through the verses of Al Quran itself(NOT through additional details)...
Yes, when translating it is important not to add to the Quran.
...That is why Allah sends the messenger in the language of the people, so he can explain/clarify it for them and NOT to translate word-to-word...
But translating an arabic word to into a word familiar to the language of another people would be what a messenger must do in order to share the message to those who do not speak arabic. Unless, of course, you are speaking of an inspired word of God.
...Al Quran cannot be translated perfectly...
That remains to be seen, in my opinion.
...since that is impossible...
nothing is impossible
But it can be explained perfectly by using Al Quran itself
I think one would need a translation to do that if the person reading it doesn't speak arabic.
For example, if I gave you a book in a language that you don't understand and tried to explain to you what I was saying all in a language you don't understand with out using a language you do understand. It would never ever make sense to you because you were never taught how to understand it.
In order for one to learn a new language one must equate words from their familiar language with words in the unfamiliar language.
For instance, in order for an English speaking person to understand what ?salam? means they must equate it with a word familiar to them such as "peace."
The English-speaker has an understanding of the definition of the word ?peace? and can use that same definition to understand ?salam.?
This is why I say that all languages can be translated. Otherwise one would never be able to learn more than one language.
I would never want to say anything to discourage others from learning arabic to study the Quran and to make them feel as if it is hopeless to try to understand the language because as some say "it cannot be translated." That could make one feel that if they were not born knowing arabic they will never understand the Quran.
I think promoting the understanding of the arabic language is very important.
In my opinion quotes like the one presented in this thread may unintentionally discourage people from learning arabic. Even though that is most likely not the authors intention.
Salam,
Arnab -
PEace Arnab
I think he meant that while it is obviously possible to translate, the full meaning will not be conveyed. If you speak two languages and have ever tried to translate something to someone else you'll know what i mean. you translate and the person understands but in the back of your head you know it was oversimplified... or something got lost on that person. So while it is not impossible to translate, it is impossible to keep the exact same meaning no matter how many words you offer as a definitiion. For example, DARABA = to hit, leave, or show as in show an example. These are pretty random concepts to an English speaker. but the overall essence of the word will not be lost to a person who studied classical arabic.
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Peace
That is why one should be clear in conveying all the things something represents. Is it not said the different nations are to learn from one another? If a human language cannot be conveyed to another or explained, than I would not call it a human language. To some people, Arabic is not a human language, or the Arabic people are a special people. It is a semetic language. If ancient Hebrew mystical texts can be translated and clearly expounded than I'm sure arabic can. Otherwise, I understand the strained state of affairs with the Arabs and the rest of the world, because of communication problems and I suggest the arabs adopt a human language so that communication can be clear.
Joe
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PEace
Why are we going for absolutes again? It's either 100% translatable or its not? you've never read a book that was originally in a different language and felt like you were being cheated? Who brought up Arabs being super humans or having a super human language? I see this is a sensitivity talking because nobody mentioned anything of the sort.
Nobody can say something cannot be translated but you will never get the FULL meaning (full = 100%). You may get 90% or more or less but it can never be the same.
I've read plenty of books that were originally written in a different language and even though i couldn't even begin to understand it in the original language, i know that there was something missing that i couldn't grasp because of translation. That doesn't mean the language is untranslatable. It just means that i understand the gist of the book and probably alot of details but there will be some extra details lost to me. Let's not get race into it that's silly.
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peace
I agree that in a word for word literal translation, the meaning will be lost. The translator needs to have good knowledge of both languages to translate something. But I think that no matter how many extra words or sentences it takes, the full meaning can be translated. It's just not easy to do that.
The reason some books might feel a bit "empty" is because the author's style is lost in the translation. Shakespeare translated into modern English isn't the same not because the meaning is lost, but because the style the author has is replaced by someone else's style or no style at all.
But in the quran's case, I highly doubt the style of writing matters. As long as we get all the facts. -
Peace,
The problem with translating Quranic Arabic into English, is that English is a meaning-language, while Arabic is mostly a definition-language.
What I mean with that is, for example, Rahman is mostly translated as Mercifull. But Rahman in reality means 'The One who embraces the Universe and nourishes it to its completion, without asking anything in return'. The Arabic word for a women's womb comes from the same root. This is the Arabic version of mercy, and thus completely differs from the Western one.
In our Western language, we have our own definition of the term 'Mercifull', and this is mostly the Christian form of Mercy. One who forgives sins. But in Arabic, the ideas as 'mercy' and 'rememberance' and so on, have a completely different background.
When we translate 'Rahman' into 'Mercifull', we are translating it into the Christian version of 'mercy' and thus completely miss the Arabian idea of 'mercy'. 'Qalla' is mostly translated with 'to forget', but the Arabic meaning is 'to forget something on the cookingstove' and thus refers to 'forgetting something during its process of change'. This is only some examples out of thousands. English language, and almost all western languages have their own background and definition of words that are mostly based in Christianity or Greek Philosophy. This is why we must translate the Arabic word with the complete definition, so we can explain the Arabic definition of the word, and don't confuse it with the Western definition.
This is the whole idea behind QXP, plus also that almost all translations approach the Quran as a religious worship book, while it is meant as a constitution for humanity. And also most translations ignore the multiple meanings of words and blindly follow tradition, this includes the 'Quran-alone' translations as RK's and FM's. For example, the word for 'orphan' in Arabic, refers to 'any person who is left alone in society'. This is a wide definition, and thus gives multiple understandings of the word, so just translating it with 'orphan' is limiting the Quran's message. I had to get used to QXP as in the beginning I didn't understood his method, but now I believe it is the best translation out there.
QXP
http//www.beacon2005.com/QXP.pdfPeace
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Peace
Thank you Bro Arnold, i never saw this translation before, although i've heard many in here mention it. i thought it was rashad khalifa's! lol i bookmarked it to look thru it.
God Bless you all
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Peace Boost,
Why are we going for absolutes again?
I'm going by what I feel on the matter. "We" is not correct here, it's just me insofar as I have responded to you and you to me.
It's either 100% translatable or its not?
I believe things can be.
you've never read a book that was originally in a different language and felt like you were being cheated?
I'm glad you have concieved of the faulty human being. Sometimes it happens, for different reasons. The translator may be bad, or the translator may limit the translations according to his/her own conceptions of an idea which can encompass more that that which is given.
Who brought up Arabs being super humans or having a super human language?
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Maybe it has been lost in "translation". By special people in this here instance I do not mean superhuman. I meant special as in a former example of people, who are still alive these very days.
I see this is a sensitivity talking because nobody mentioned anything of the sort.
I know, I certainly have not. I never said anything about superhumans. Somehow you inferred that I meant superhumans by special. I think there are special people in this world, but I do not believe in any superhumans.
Nobody can say something cannot be translated but you will never get the FULL meaning (full = 100%). You may get 90% or more or less but it can never be the same.
Says you. I differ. I believe if it cannot be done, or if it is as you say, than it cannot be a human language. There are many languages, from sign, to symbol, to speech which all people can comprehend.
I've read plenty of books that were originally written in a different language and even though i couldn't even begin to understand it in the original language, i know that there was something missing that i couldn't grasp because of translation.
I've also gotten bad food too. Not everything people work on will be as good as it can be. I've seen some excellent translations where little nuances even are pointed out that even deeper meanings can be seen.
That doesn't mean the language is untranslatable. It just means that i understand the gist of the book and probably alot of details but there will be some extra details lost to me.
Does this mean you believe you will never understand God's system? I believe it to be holistic, where all the parts must be put into play for it to be a working system.
Let's not get race into it that's silly.
Race is very serious. So serious people kill for it and fight to ensure that it's not degraded by others. I was not talking about race when I responded to you. By Arabs I mean those whose mother-tongue is Arabic. That does not have anything to do with the gene-pool.
Joe
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Peace Bro Joe
I apologize if i came off too harsh i'm not myself today. i think from your last post we agree.
group