REF: virgin birth, what about Cloning ?
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Peace guest,
Guest, you stated
- Consider the following two observation of the natural phenomenon
Observation 1 Egg and sperm of 20 year old female and male are brought together (input)
Natural law (system) reaction A beautiful creation of a human
Observation 2 Egg and sperm of another 20 year old female and male are brought together (input)
Natural law (system) reaction No creation of a human no matter how may time tried
These natural phenomenons are unquestionable
Takeaway An apparent contradiction. How do we resolve this? The solution to this problem may resolve the other phenomenon such as virgin birth, fire not burning Ibrahim, opening the sea for Moses etc.
I disagree. There is no contradiction unless you can provide in detail that all the variables were precisely the same. What we see on the outside is not encompassing and defining of what's going on within the body. I'm sure you're aware of this, and I don't mean to split hairs, but the premise is faulty as I see it.
Overall, I get your point and am happy to understand without agreeing. As I said in my initial reply, I don't see intervention as a contradiction but as an inconsistency. But that's just me.
The author of The Quran claims that He is the creator of all that we see and that which we do not see. That is the absolute truth. Science can not make such claim and hence it becomes irrelevant in the discussion of creation and our relationship with The God. Science is man made just like hadith is. Scientific evidence may be used to confirm the working of certain laws of the system but it is in no position validate the system. Otherwise we will have to give human the infallible attribute.
I agree. Science cannot validate the system.
The way I see it, God gave us signs. All around, within and without, are signs. In the book we call qur'an, we have guidance in understanding these signs and in understanding ourselves and how we can be most efficient in harmonizing ourselves with God. And God gave us the ability to decode these signs by sincere observation of nature(within and without) and sincere reading of the qur'an. Science is but one aspect of this ability.
Putting the tools to use, we get a picture, although ultimately imperfect, but a basic framework of what God wants us to see. So the basic framework is all we have to work with. And this framework is designed by God. So, for me, when I'm trying to understand the guidance provided and more than one interpretation can be taken from the text, I choose the interpretation that fits within the framework. That's really all I can do with what God has provided me. For me to sidestep and alter my own mind and soul in order to make an interpretation fit would be disengenuous and, frankly, cheating myself.
Peace,
Tay - Consider the following two observation of the natural phenomenon
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Peace Nadia, Phoenix, all,
My apologies for sidetracking. My intention was to express why it was becoming futile to continue the debate when the opposing arguments were coming from different perspectives, but of course, that spun off into space. Hopefully, we've all grown thicker skin and can continue peacefully while understanding and respecting each other.
Peace,
Tay -
No problems Tay, Phoenix. peace
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Wow, didnt this come at a good time at the year. Marry christmas yall, its a boy. well ofcourse its a boy.
Behold, the virgin birth (and yes, it's a son)
By Steve Connor, Science EditorPublished 21 December 2006
The world's largest lizard has astonished biologists by being able to produce offspring by an "immaculate" conception without the help of a male.
Two captive female Komodo dragons have had virgin births by a process called parthenogenesis, when an unfertilised egg develops into a normal embryo without being fertilised by a sperm.
The eggs of one of the lizards - a female called Flora at Chester Zoo - are due to hatch early in the new year, said Kevin Buley, one of the zoo's curators.
"Although other lizard species are known to be able to self-fertilise, this is the first time this has ever been reported in Komodo dragons," Mr Buley said.
"Essentially what we have here is an immaculate conception ... and it is a possibility that the incubating eggs could hatch around Christmas time," he said.
"We will be on the look out for shepherds, wise men and an unusually bright star over Chester Zoo."
The other female, called Sungai, lived at London Zoo until she died earlier this year of natural causes. However, DNA fingerprinting has shown that some of her offspring born in 2005 were the result of parthenogenesis.
"The fact that it has happened in two separate Komodo dragons, at two zoos and under different conditions suggests that parthenogenesis in Komodos is a lot more common than we realised," said Richard Gibson, curator of herpetology at London Zoo.
"If it can happen in captivity then the question is can it occur in the wild?" he said.
All the offspring produced by parthenogenesis are male which, unlike mammals, are the result of two identical sex chromosomes - in reptiles it is the females that have two different sex chromosomes. The study is published in Nature magazine.
A clutch of Sungai's eggs hatched in August 2005, two years after she had been kept with a visiting male. The zoo's keepers thought that she must have stored his sperm - a common occurrence among reptiles.
However, Mr Gibson was not convinced and decided to use DNA fingerprinting to resolve the mystery. The male offspring turned out to have the same genetic profile as their mother.
"I am delighted that the mysterious parentage of our Komodo dragon babies has been solved and that we have discovered something new to science at the same time," Mr Gibson said.
"This discovery also raises important questions about the natural history of dragons in the wild and will therefore help to safeguard the future of the species," he said.
Komodo dragons can grow up to 10ft long and are the only lizards that can eat prey that are bigger than themselves. They live on several islands in Indonesia but the wild population is small, fragmented and endangered by habitat loss.
One theory is that parthenogenesis allows Komodos to establish breeding colonies from sole females that have swum to distant islands. Although the parthenogenic offspring will be all males, they would be still able to mate with their own mother to produce both males and females in subsequent generations.
"Theoretically, a female Komodo dragon in the wild could swim to a new island and then establish an entirely new population of dragons," Mr Buley said.
The saliva of a Komodo dragon contains up to 50 species of bacteria and is virulently toxic - it often kills its prey by injuring the animal first and then guarding over it until septicaemia sets in.
who would have known? Jesus was a comodo dragon and not a frog as first thought.
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http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/day.gif
The Sun rises in the East, and sets in the West.
The Sun is a Chariot of Fire. It travels, like a chariot, and it's on fire. The Sun is the Unquenchable Fire. It is the fire which never dies. The Sun is like a burning bush which is not consumed.
During the day the Sun gives us light and warmth. That's good.
http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/night.gif
At night the Sun travels under the world back to the East so it can rise again. It travels through the underworld, i.e. under-world, - under the world.
During the day the Sun gives us light and warmth. That's good. At night the Sun no longer gives us that light and warmth. That's bad. Darkness has always been the natural enemy of man.
Evil is dark. For example, we talk about a person's "dark side" when referring to his or her evil tendencies. Evil is black, the color of darkness. The stereotypical villain wears black, whereas the stereotypical good person wears white, a bright color reminiscent of light. Nighttime is an evil time when our world is dark and black. The Devil is the "Prince of Darkness," literally. And we have a black square cube, go figure.
http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/noahdk/heavenhell.gif
Heaven and Hell are not just theologically opposite, they are geometrically opposite. Heaven is up. Hell is down. Heaven is and has always been up above. Hell is and has always been down below, under the earth.
Go outside at night and look up and you are literally looking at heaven. And what do you see? You see all the stars, which make up all the constellations.
Hell is hot and on fire, because the sun is hot and on fire and the sun goes down there every night, setting everything ablaze.
these are some of the basics to understanding why this claim is wrong, wrong, wrong and more wrong.
On August 23rd the sun enters the house of Virgo the virgin. Virgo is the virgin that figuratively gives birth to the sun each year when the sun passes out of Virgo. Even though Virgo gives birth, she remains a virgin, just as Mary is the virgin who gives birth to Jesus and yet remains a virgin.
A star on the shoulder of the Virgin Mary was a traditional symbol in all art prior to the 1600's. The star is derived from the star 'Spica', which is the brightest star in the constellation Virgo.1 'Spica' is Latin for "ear of wheat," which Virgo holds in her hand. The sun's ecliptic path passes very close to this bright star as it moves through Virgo. Hence when the sun reaches Spica, it's time to harvest the wheat. Virgo is also sometimes depicted as holding an ear of corn.
Food and drink are literally the elements which sustain life. Mother earth brings forth food which grows up out of the ground. Because life springs forth from the earth, the earth is given the female role of mother, since it is from the female that life emerges. And if earth is the mother, then the father must be the god above who pours down rain from the sky impregnating the earth. This is why God above is a masculine "He" instead of a feminine "She" or a sexless "it."The sun/son is born or re-born in four different ways
Christmas Day (three days after the Winter Solstice).
By passing out of Virgo the virgin.
The dawn of every new day the sun arises born again.
Solar eclipse.
and now, for some reason some of you are trying to resell me this old mumbo jumbo, but the question is....why?
#get the full story here http//members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/index.htm#solarmyth
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Peace Tay, what is your definition of preciseness. Give me your error bar. Remember the lesson from Physics I lab.
An easier way to take care of your concern would be to show that two couple successfully produced offspring under diffrent environments i.e. diameter of eggs were different, one sperm had a shorter tail than the other, different DNA and many other variables I don?t want to get into.
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Good post Magi,
Here is an excerpt from an article about Christian symbolism etc
- The Sun A little difficult to ignore, don't you think. If the sun, which is the
source of all life fails to come up the next morning the ancient people would not have lived long and they knew this. The Sun invigorates you with it's energy and
causes the crops to grow. The Sun gives up it's life force to provide us with
warmth and food and many other things. So it could be said that the Sun of God
gives it's life up for US and it is the TRUE SAVIOR for it has risen-"Risen Savior"
When the ancient people would track the Sun on the "Sun dial", as it still does
today, the Sun traveles South until the Winter Solstice when it cold and harsh,
representing death and the Sun would stop "ON THE SUN DIAL FOR THREE
DAYS and on December 25th, the Sun would be said "To be BORN AGAIN" on
the CROSS OF THE ZODIAC" after having died for three days. This is when the
Sun begins it's annual journey back to the Northern Hemisphere.
The Ancient calender also started at a different time. It began in Virgo and ended
in leo, that is why the Sphynx has the head of a Virgin and the Body of a Lion.
When the Sun of God was re-born, it was in the Constellation of Virgo, so it was
said "Born of a Virgin". The Sun is the "Eye of God" or "Eye of Horus". Ra was
the Sun God in Egypt. His full name was Amen Ra. That is why we say "A-men"
after our prayers. The Egyptians knew this and all of the Egyptian beliefs and
customs are built into our society secretly by the Freemasons. Both symbols
below are the Sun.
aaaaaaaa
The Origin of the Trinity, the father, the sun, and the holy spirit. Horus comes up
at the "Hor-izon". He is born, this is the beginning, 1200 he is the "Most High",
and then the Sun "Sets", hence "Set" or "Satan", the prince of darkness does battle with the light of the world and wins, until the Sun is re-born the next day. This is
a representation of the evolution of life. The birth, or the beginning, mid-life
starting in your teen years, and old age, leading to death, the end of life. This is
also symbolized in other religions going very far back. In India, there is Brahma,
the Father, Vishnu, the Son, and Shiva.In Malachai 42 of the Old Testament, it states "But unto you, fear my name,
shall the Sun of rightiousness arise with healing in his wings." Look at the above
symbol from egypt of the Sun and his wings. Jesus was supposed to have 12
apostles. These were the 12 Houses of the Zodiac.In the book of Job Chapter 3833 "Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven?
3831 "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Plei-a-des or loose the bands of
Orion?" 3832 "Canst thou bring forth Mazz-a-roth in his season? or canst thou
guide Arc-tu-rus with his sons?" This is all in reference to the zodiac and
astrology. The definition of Mazzaroth in the King James Version of the bible is
"The twelve houses of the zodiac".Jesus is said to have fed his people with two fishes and five loaves. The two
fishes represent "Pisces" and the age of Pisces or that particular House of the
Zodiac. That is why Jesus is referred to as the "great fisherman". It is also why the
Pope's headdress is shaped like a fish. If you turn it sideways you will see this.
Rome ruled the world for 2000 years under the age of Pisces. "Dogon" is the fish
God, which is what is actually represented. The New Testament is Astrology.In Matthew 2820 it states "Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the
age". What is being talked about is the "End of the Age", the age of "Pisces". The
end of the "Age" is often mistaken for the "end of the world", creating the
"Apocalypse fears". Joshua was called the Son of Nun, which in Hebrew means
"fish". The new "Age of Aquarius" is coming. The symbol for the age of Aquarius
is the "Water-bearer", or the man with a water pitcher.In Luke 2210, when jesus is asked by his 12 apostles where he will go to settle
his new kingdom, he responds, "Behold, when ye arew entered into the city, there
shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water, follow him into the house where
he entereth in." This is the "House of Aquarius".In Matthew 1232, "The holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the
age to come." In Matthew 1339, "The harvest is the end of the age, and the
harvesters are angels". 1340 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of the age". In Matthew 243 "and what will be the sign of
your coming and of the end of the age?" and from Luke 1830 "the kingdom of
God will fail to recieve many times as nmuch in this age and, in the age to come,
eternal life." First Corinthians 36, "We do, however, speak a message of wisdom
among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age who
are coming to nothing". Hebrews 65 "Who have tasted the goodness of the word
of god and the powers of the coming age". and in Revelation 153 "Great and
marvelous are you Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the
Ages."--The Sun, our Lord, is the King of the Ages
and we are in the "End Times" and entering a "New Age". There is nothing to fear
in this regard, of a "New Age" or the "End Times".The "Passover" is the Sun passing over into the Winter Solstice from the Fall
Equinox. This too was borrowed from the Hebrews who borrowed it from the
Egyptians.http//freedomdomain.com/relig.htm
- The Sun A little difficult to ignore, don't you think. If the sun, which is the
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Peace all,
My intention and aim in this thread was
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To show that Arnold's interpretation of 4913 and 5345-46 being all inclusive and not general and thus not allowing the exception of a literal virgin birth, is fallacious/incorrect by giving examples of cloning and parthenogenesis, and by showing that "kullu"/all/every is nowhere to be found in those verses.
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To discuss the possibility of virgin birth, by showing the possibility of virgin birth through cloning and by reminding that God is capable of doing all things.
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To show that the never changing God's sunnat/way per al-qur'aan is limited only to giving evil respite for some time and then completely destroying it, and not applicable to ALL natural laws.
This thread is not about sun gods, symbolic versus literal interpretations, or frequency of God's interventions and I would urge all the posters to kindly refrain from going off topic.
We should heed the message of 37 and try to focus primarily on the muhkamat verses of al-qur'aan. We should try to understand AND implement the basic core message of al-qur'aan which is to believe in God and the Last Day and to be righteous. We should not endlessly engage in debating/discussing/trying to figure out the true meanings of the mutashabihat verses, keeping in mind that only God knows the true meaning of those verses. 37 is proof that understanding the mutashabihat verses of al-qur'aan is not required/necessary for our guidance because we might never be able to figure out their true meaning.
It is possible that eventually The God might enlighten us with the true meaning of those verses, and until then we should be patient and affirm The God's signs, and realize that our knowledge could be incomplete/imperfect/faulty and not be arrogant that we know it all right now, thus rejecting The God's signs just because we cannot understand them. The premise of being able to understand ALL of The God's signs assumes human perfection and infallibility which are only The God's attributes.
With this spirit, I would like to withdraw from any further discussion on my part in this thread about mutashabihat verses. In the end, only The God guides.
Peace
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peace
We should heed the message of 37 and try to focus primarily on the muhkamat verses of al-qur'aan. We should try to understand AND implement the basic core message of al-qur'aan which is to believe in God and the Last Day and to be righteous. We should not endlessly engage in debating/discussing/trying to figure out the true meanings of the mutashabihat verses, keeping in mind that only God knows the true meaning of those verses. 37 is proof that understanding the mutashabihat verses of al-qur'aan is not required/necessary for our guidance because we might never be able to figure out their true meaning.
BS.
Why did God include all those verses if we can't understand them? and how do we know which ones are understandable and which ones aren't? 37 honestly makes NO sense.
If 37 is talking about the quran, then Ayman explained it saying that it is talking about the "original" meaning of the verses, which only God can know, but we can get lessons from it and follow it, but we can't claim to know what God actually means.
If 37 is not talking about the quran, but the universe, then it would make more sense. There are clear signs in this universe, and there are not so clear signs. And we can't understand truly what is behind those signs. We might think something is bad when really it is good or something like that. And the perverse will use those unclear signs to spread evil.
If it doesn't mean any of the above, then it is complete and utter bullshit. Sorry for being so blunt. But that's just what I think. No offence is intended, and I respect everyone else's opinions.
peace -
salam all this is my first post, but I'd like to comment on this
5345-46
And He is the One who created the pair, male and female. From a seed(nutfatin) that is put forth.
I my opinion it seems it refer to the origin of the male and female not just creating male and female. And this is plausable because male and female came from mirco-organisms(nutfatin).When the quran refers to creating male and female humans from a womb
762
We have created the human from a seed that is mixed, We test him, so We made him hear and see.It says from a nutfatin that is mixed, clearly a reference to the egg and sperm joining, not just the sperm.
7537-39
Was he not a seed from sperm put forth? Then he was a clot, so he was created and developed. Then He made the two pairs, male and female.This is refering to when the fetus is designated as male or female. Notice that in 7537 while describing the nutfatin(small drop) in that particular verse it uses the word manayyin-literally meaning sperm-which is put forth, so implying that not all nutfatins are sperm. And Muhammed Asad puts it as "Was he not once a drop of sperm that had been spilt," he translated nutfatin as drop-not sperm, but manayyin as sperm.
So by saying that nutfatin means sperm is incorrect. Hence cloning and parthenogenesis do not contradict this verse.
These are just my thoughts, but I think it seems that verse 5345-46 is refering to the origin of the male and female.
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Salam.
I think that cloning is not possible, i could be wrong, because humans cannot clone a soul and a soul is needed for a body. Maybe we could clone a body, you know, piece by piece, liver, heart, skin, stuff like that.
Time will show.
The God Almighty knows best.Peace.
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if God created "all", why wouldn't he be able to make Virgin Mary pregnant? you believe it, or you don't. God is almighty as fare as I know. I think God will enjoy more to create a human than create an earthquake....and I believe God knows more about cloning than any of us bravo
sun
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Peace,
Of course Allah can do it, this is not the discussion. It is about what falls under Allah's Laws as he clearly says He will not brake His Laws. These include the Laws of the Universe.
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Peace all,
He clearly says He will not brake His Laws. These include the Laws of the Universe
The part of Arnold's quote in blue is indeed supported by al-qur'aan but the part of his quote in red is a CLEAR fabrication/invention/assumption/lie which is unsupported by al-qur'aan and akin to inventing a lie against God. If not then please provide evidences supporting the red statement from al-qur'aan. For new readers, my first post in this thread includes qur'aanic evidence of what I just stated. The ONLY law/way/sunnat of God that He promised never to change as per al-qur'aan, is giving evil some respite and then utterly destroying it eventually. We cannot assume from this that ALL laws of universe are included in that never changing sunnat of God.
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Salam all.
If I cannot understand the quran, then the quran is a useless piece of horse manure.
And because you hardly understand Al-Quran, then Al-Quran is definitely a useless piece of horse manure, right? No one seems to have any objection.
(just my thoughts
Just your farts.
If it(37) doesn't mean any of the above, then it is complete and utter bulls***.
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Salam Aleikum,
Dear Tanveer, when I have the time, I will come with my proof of why I believe it is such as I'm at the moment very busy. If you will disagree with my interpretation, that is fine as this is the right of every Muslim. But to call soemthing a lie is a big assumption until the proof is given. I suggest you should not speak in such harsh terms as you have only authority on your interpretation.
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And because you hardly understand Al-Quran, then Al-Quran is definitely a useless piece of horse manure, right? No one seems to have any objection.
I didn't say "if I DON'T..." I said "If I CAN'T". If the quran is impossible to understand, then it is useless. There is no way around that fact, dude. Any book is only good if we can understand it.
peace! peace
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Peace Alen,
I think that cloning is not possible, i could be wrong, because humans cannot clone a soul and a soul is needed for a body. Maybe we could clone a body, you know, piece by piece, liver, heart, skin, stuff like that.
Time will show.
The God Almighty knows best.Do you mean to say that animals do not have a soul ? because they have been cloned.
Humans have been already cloned but the scientists who cloned them are not openly admitting it and not openly coming out with this knowledge because of the fear of persecution, because cloning humans has been banned by USA and almost all its major allies.
Peace
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Peace,
Yes, but cloning has nothing to do with this. Cloning is copying the DNA, and Jesus didn't look like Mary
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Peace
Cloning destroys/annihilates your conjectural interpretation of 4913 and 5345-46. Also an XY male can be cloned from an XY female after repair of the mutation of SRY gene by genetic engineering.