Noah and the Great Flood

Layth

Peace,

An article on the subject.

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/noah.htm

unknownuser

So what the article is saying is that Noah existed during the age of the dinosaurs??

OK, there are a few issues here

1)- You are saying that the flood was a global event, and have quoted the following verse as proof

"And Noah said My Lord, do not leave on the Earth any of the rejecters at all. If you are to leave them, then they will misguide Your servants and they will only give birth to a wicked rejecter." (7126-27)

7126
7127

does the word "ardh" actually mean the ENTIRE planet earth? Or could it mean a certain geographical area or region?

For example, when we say in Arabic
What does it mean? Does it mean the whole planet, or just a piece of land?

The word "ardh" in the above verse can mean "land". It doesn't necessarily mean the whole planet Earth.

Are you implying that Noah and his people were the ONLY ones living on the whole planet? If there were other humans living on the planet, in places far away, Noah could not have possibly known about them. The flood was a punishment for the transgressions perpetrated by NOAH'S people. Does it make sense that God would wipe out all life on Earth?

The animals carried on the ark would have probably been only domestic ones (sheep, goats, horses, dogs, fowl, etc...), i.e animals that Noah's people had domesticated. It doesn't make sense that Noah would roam the entire planet and find a pair of EVERY existing species.

What is striking in the story of Noah is that God commanded him to carry a pair of each animal with him. When the people of Aad or Thamud or Lot were annihilated, we do not come across any command given by God to His messengers to carry a pair of animals from the town or village that is being wiped out even though in most these cases the destruction was complete and nothing alive was left standing.

The reason that God didn't command Lot to carry animals with him was because only Lot's town was destroyed. There was no need to save all the animals. Whereas in the case of Noah, a very large geographical expanse was wiped out ( the size of an entire state or country- but certainly not the entire planet).

2)- The evidence you stated about dinosaurs proves that some catastrophy did take place on Earth 65 million years ago and caused their extinsion. The contemporary theory is that it was caused by an asteroid hitting the Earth near the Yucutan pennisula ,in what is today Mexico. It doesn't prove that this same catastrophy is the one that wiped out Noah's people.

Which leads us directly to the next point

3)- How Old Was Noah?

"And We had sent Noah to his people, so he stayed with them one thousand less fifty years. Then the flood took them while they were wicked." (2914)

2914

Note the use of the two words "sana" and "3am" in teh Arabic text. They are not synonyms. God's use of words is precise, and must be studied carefully.

The word "sana" in the Arabic language does NOT necessarily mean a year (365 days), just as the word "yawm" does not necessarily mean a day (24 hours).

The words "sana" and "sunnah" have the same root. In fact, the only way you can distinguish the two words is by the stress on the .
Now we know that "sunnah" means "law" or "fixed way of behavior".

This meaning can be closely related to "sana". The latter can be used to indicate the fixed motion (way of behaviour) of ANY astronomical body to measure the passing of time in various cycles or units.

Examples

If we used the word "sana" to measure the fixed way the Earth rotates around the sun ( law of Earth's orbit - or "sunnah" of the Earth's motion around the sun) , then YES, one "sana" DOES mean 365 days (year / &#1605
If we used the word "sana" to measure the fixed way the moon revolves around the Earth ( law of the moon's orbit - or "sunnah" of the moon's motion around the Earth ), then we get one "sana" = 30 days (1 month)
If we used the word "sana" to measure the way the Earth rotates around its own axis ( law of the Earth's rotation - or "sunnah" of the Earth's motion as it rotates around its axis) then we get one "sana" = 24 hours (1 day).

Therefore, when God said that Noah lived among his people 1,000 "sana" minus 50 "3am", people automatically make the mistake of assuming "sana" is synonymous with "3am" and go on to deduce that Noah lived 950 years!!!.

If "sana" and "3am" had the same meaning, then it would not have been necessary to use both words in the verse.

God would have simply said

OR

But the fact that He used BOTH words means that they don't have the same meaning.

Here is my modest theory

1,000 "sanas" might denote the "sunnah" of the moon's rotation around the Earth , which is once every 30 days. Hence the word "sana" here can actually mean "month".

Let's do our math then

1000 months / 12 = 83.3 years ( &#1605

83.33 - 50 = 33.333 years . That's how long Noah lived among his people AFTER the flood.

4)- Human / Dinosaur Remains

Assuming that the large print is indeed that of a dinosaur ( could be that of a human tracking some very large animal) , how do we know that the humans who lived 65 million years ago had brains "developped" enough to understand God's message?? Of course these are just theories, and it will take some time to validate them. Are you sure that the tracks shown in those photos are 65 million year old fossils?? confused

Check out this site, and see both sides of the argument first

( make sure you click on all the sub-titles highlighted in blue)

http//paleo.cc/paluxy/ichno.htm

- What Caused the Great Flood?

The eruption of the volcano, as you said, may have been the indirect cause. According to the Quran, the eruption was actually a sign for Noah and the handful of faithfulls to board the ship

The direct cause however, was non-stop torrential rain and innundation of rivers / lakes, as the Quran clearly states. This leads one to think that the area in which Noah lived had lots of such bodies of water.

And it was said "O land, swallow your water, and O sky, cease." And the water was diminished, and the matter concluded. And it came to rest on the Judi, and it was said "Away with the wicked people."

However, it must be noted that the above does not negate that a meteor impact may have been the catalyst for the volcanic eruption in the first place

This is assuming that your theory of Noah's co-existence with dinosaurs is true.

- The Remains of the Ark.

"We carried him on a craft made of slabs and mortar. It ran under Our watchful eyes; a reward for one who was rejected. And We have left it as a sign. Do any of you wish to learn?" (5413-15)

Also, what do you think is "The Judie" mentioned in 1144 ( The place where the Ark came to rest)..

The ark (or parts thereof) are still intact somewhere on Earth and will one day be discovered.

I certainly hope so!!

I don't know about you, but this theory that Noah co-existed with the dinosaurs seems a little far-fetched to me. There's no way humans could have existed 65 million years ago.. Furthermore, that website you posted is very controversial, and many scientists have dismissed the findings of the "Taylor-Track".

Peace...

Layth

Peace,

1)- You are saying that the flood was a global event, and have quoted the following verse as proof

"And Noah said My Lord, do not leave on the Earth any of the rejecters at all. If you are to leave them, then they will misguide Your servants and they will only give birth to a wicked rejecter." (7126-27)

7126
7127

does the word "ardh" actually mean the ENTIRE planet earth? Or could it mean a certain geographical area or region?

For example, when we say in Arabic
What does it mean? Does it mean the whole planet, or just a piece of land?

The context of Earth is normally the whole planet (see 2230, 236) unless it is qualified with a prefix as in your example above. The words used by Noah had no such prefix which makes me undertsand it was the whole Earth.

Are you implying that Noah and his people were the ONLY ones living on the whole planet? If there were other humans living on the planet, in places far away, Noah could not have possibly known about them. The flood was a punishment for the transgressions perpetrated by NOAH'S people. Does it make sense that God would wipe out all life on Earth?

God normally sends His prophets to the cheif town/community. Also, with regards to destroying all people, God destroyed all the animals and they did nothing wrong. Also, when God destroyed any people there are surely children amongst such people who are also wiped out...God does what He pleases, so I can`t really comment on this point.

The animals carried on the ark would have probably been only domestic ones (sheep, goats, horses, dogs, fowl, etc...), i.e animals that Noah's people had domesticated. It doesn't make sense that Noah would roam the entire planet and find a pair of EVERY existing species.

That is based on an undertsanding that the flood was a localized event...My undertsanding that it is a global event is where we will differ.

The reason that God didn't command Lot to carry animals with him was because only Lot's town was destroyed. There was no need to save all the animals. Whereas in the case of Noah, a very large geographical expanse was wiped out ( the size of an entire state or country- but certainly not the entire planet).

In your localized flood Noah would have landed on the nearest available dry land...In such case he would also not have needed any animals with him as they could be found on the land that was not affected by the flood (like the example you gave of why Lot did not need to carry chickens and sheep and other animals with him).

2)- The evidence you stated about dinosaurs proves that some catastrophy did take place on Earth 65 million years ago and caused their extinsion. The contemporary theory is that it was caused by an asteroid hitting the Earth near the Yucutan pennisula ,in what is today Mexico. It doesn't prove that this same catastrophy is the one that wiped out Noah's people.

The cause of extinction is open for debate on all the sites I looked at for the research...The meteor theory is the most popular and I do not rule out that a meteor impact may have triggered the volcanic erruption which caused the rains and floods.

Which leads us directly to the next point

3)- How Old Was Noah?

"And We had sent Noah to his people, so he stayed with them one thousand less fifty years. Then the flood took them while they were wicked." (2914)

2914

Note the use of the two words "sana" and "3am" in teh Arabic text. They are not synonyms. God's use of words is precise, and must be studied carefully.

While I agree with you that Sanna and 3aam are different, I completely disagree on the meaning you gave for Sana which is clearly only used to denote the specific count of a year (see 296, 526, 1811, 1825, 105, 1247, etc). The word 3aam on the other hand can have a varying count as it denoted as that which is common to people - i.e. a man-made calender/count and not a cosmic one (see 937).

4)- Human / Dinosaur Remains

Assuming that the large print is indeed that of a dinosaur ( could be that of a human tracking some very large animal) , how do we know that the humans who lived 65 million years ago had brains "developped" enough to understand God's message?? Of course these are just theories, and it will take some time to validate them. Are you sure that the tracks shown in those photos are 65 million year old fossils??

Check out this site, and see both sides of the argument first

( make sure you click on all the sub-titles highlighted in blue)

http//paleo.cc/paluxy/ichno.htm

The tracks may or may not be what they are presented at...However, this all falls back to the flood being global and that is where all these events tie together.

- What Caused the Great Flood?

The eruption of the volcano, as you said, may have been the indirect cause. According to the Quran, the eruption was actually a sign for Noah and the handful of faithfulls to board the ship

The direct cause however, was non-stop torrential rain and innundation of rivers / lakes, as the Quran clearly states. This leads one to think that the area in which Noah lived had lots of such bodies of water.

And it was said "O land, swallow your water, and O sky, cease." And the water was diminished, and the matter concluded. And it came to rest on the Judi, and it was said "Away with the wicked people."

Quote
However, it must be noted that the above does not negate that a meteor impact may have been the catalyst for the volcanic eruption in the first place

This is assuming that your theory of Noah's co-existence with dinosaurs is true.

An underwater volcavo boiling the water could be a cause for the massive rains that flooded the planet...On the other hand, if it is God`s will for this even to happen without any reasons, then it is easy for God to do.

- The Remains of the Ark.

"We carried him on a craft made of slabs and mortar. It ran under Our watchful eyes; a reward for one who was rejected. And We have left it as a sign. Do any of you wish to learn?" (5413-15)

Also, what do you think is "The Judie" mentioned in 1144 ( The place where the Ark came to rest)..

I believe it simply means on a plain and is not the name of a place/mountain.

I don't know about you, but this theory that Noah co-existed with the dinosaurs seems a little far-fetched to me. There's no way humans could have existed 65 million years ago.. Furthermore, that website you posted is very controversial, and many scientists have dismissed the findings of the "Taylor-Track".

The entire article is built upon the flood being global...If it is global, then these conclusions become a must (regardless of what views may be out there on some of the evidence)...However, if the flood is a localized event (which I believe it was not), then the entire premise changes as do the conclusions.

unknownuser

Salaams pazuzu,layth,

i think i support pazuzu on this.

So Noah was around 65 million years ago , was he?

3.5 million years ago, Australopithecus afarensis foraged for fruit, nuts and seeds in a mixture of savannah and woodland. It may also have obtained animal protein from termites or birds' eggs.

Time Scale
Australopithecines first walked upright 3.5+ million years ago.
First appearance of Homo about 2 million years ago.
First stone tools/weapons about 2 million years ago.
First handaxes about 1.6 million years ago.
First appearance of Homo sapiens about 100,000 years ago.
First hafted weapons 25-100,000 years ago.
First known migration by boat (Australia colonised) 50,000 years ago.
Sungir graves 22,000+ years ago
First colonisation of America 12,000 years ago (perhaps earlier)
Large mammals extinct mostly by 10,000 years ago.
First known agriculture around 10,000 years ago.

http//www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/human/human_evolution/mother_of_man1.shtml

Now your article is claiming That the flood occurred 65 million years ? even though there is no evidence of man being around then at all!

Evidence of the Flood?

"Sixty-five million years ago the curtain came down on the Age of Dinosaurs when a cataclysmic event led to mass extinctions of life. This interval of abrupt change in Earth's history, called the K/T Boundary, closed the Cretaceous (K) Period and opened the Tertiary (T) Period." National Museum of Natural History - Dinosaur Extinction

This can?t be right as scientific research is telling us that man hasn?t been around for this long.
How Old Was Noah?

"And We had sent Noah to his people, so he stayed with them one thousand less fifty years. Then the flood took them while they were wicked." (2914)

Sorry but this translation is totally screwed (i think and- Should say);
???He stayed with them all his life accept 50 years???

And was it a ship at all may be not!
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10241.0

Layth

Peace,

Please remember that this article approaches the flood as a global event and thus the conclusions reached are all linked to such a premise. If you hold a localized view of the flood, then the article is not valid from the start.

Now your article is claiming That the flood occurred 65 million years ? even though there is no evidence of man being around then at all!

Actually, my view is that man was around even longer than that, eversince organic life developed into creatures which walk on four and two feet in-line with Gods decree that mankind shall be the sucessors of Earth (not much sence to make mankind the sucessor and then give them the Earth for what amounts to a few seconds of Earths total life).

Also, you refuse this concept because there is no concensous by modern science that says the same? Need I remind that the consensous of modern science a few centuries back held that the Earth was the center of the universe and that the Earth was flat?

And was it a ship at all may be not!
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10241.0

My views on the allegoric interpretations are reserved at best...I hold what the Quran says to be literal unless it appears or is stated as otherwise.

unknownuser

Salaams Layth,All,

Also, you refuse this concept because there is no concensous by modern science that says the same? Need I remind that the consensous of modern science a few centuries back held that the Earth was the center of the universe and that the Earth was flat?

Wasn?t it religionists who said that and not scientists Br.

Indeed when science showed the reality see what the religionists did; cunning or what?

Galileo and the Holy Inquisition
Many (most?) scientists believe religions to be irrational, obscurantist and anti-scientific The problem goes back to Galileo, who discovered that the earth goes round the sun, rather than vice-versa as stated in the Bible. When he publicised his findings he was arrested by the church on a charge of heresy and threatened with torture and burning at the stake unless he withdrew them. He offered the chance for his accusers to confirm his findings by observation through his telescope. They refused - if the facts were contrary to theology then the facts must be wrong.

Quote
And was it a ship at all may be not!
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10241.0

My views on the allegoric interpretations are reserved at best...I hold what the Quran says to be literal unless it appears or is stated as otherwise.

Why do you think this interpretation is an allegory and not literal Br?

Gods Blessings.

Layth

Peace,

Wasn?t it religionists who said that and not scientists Br.

That is why I used the words consensous by modern science. There is always a few individuals who reach totally different findings, but, until the majority come-round, there views are trated as foolish at best.

Andya_Primanda

Peace Layth,

I'm with the 'against' camp.

First, your central premise of a global flood is contradicted by geological evidence The Earth has never experienced a global flood. My argument uses this article Problems with a Global Flood

Of course, you may claim it's a miracle and God could've wiped out all the evidence and leave/plant differing evidence so that geologists arrive at the 'wrong' conclusion that there had never been a global flood, but of course that IMO would contradict God's words that say His signs are to be found in nature.

Also, human fossils are quite plentiful--and were humans around at 65 million years ago, we would've found human fossils and artifacts from that age. But we don't, and instead we only have remains of dinosaurs and early mammals (even monkeys and apes haven't existed at that time!). Your theory MIGHT work, however, if Nuh and his people were not humans/primate species. Although this would be farfetched.

In short, your theory begs too much evidence.

Layth

Peace Andy,

I'm with the 'against' camp.

I assume you mean against a global flood and in support of a local one.

First, your central premise of a global flood is contradicted by geological evidence The Earth has never experienced a global flood. My argument uses this article Problems with a Global Flood

A search on Yahoo will show an equal amount of sites that list geological evidence in support of the flood.

Liquefaction is associated with quicksand, earthquakes, and wave action. Liquefaction also played a major role in rapidly sorting sediments, plants, and animals during the flood. Indeed, the global presence of such layers and sorted fossils shows that a global flood occurred. Massive liquefaction has also left other telltale signs such as cross-bedded sandstone, plumes, and mounds. http//www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/flood.html

That a global event occured however many years ago and wiped out nearly all life on the planet is not in dispute. What is in dispute is what the cause of such an event was (was it a flood, meteor, volcano, mixture of all three, etc.).

Also, logic dictates that the mass accumilation of animal and plant life in specific areas of the globle (which turned to oil) is consistent with water sweeping such aniumals & plant and concentrating them is specific deposits.

Of course, you may claim it's a miracle and God could've wiped out all the evidence and leave/plant differing evidence so that geologists arrive at the 'wrong' conclusion that there had never been a global flood, but of course that IMO would contradict God's words that say His signs are to be found in nature.

Why would I need to claim that? It is the evidence of a sudden mass extinction which has resulted in a linking between the flood event and the archeological and geological evidence...So I would say God left pretty much an abundance of evidence.

Also, human fossils are quite plentiful--and were humans around at 65 million years ago, we would've found human fossils and artifacts from that age. But we don't, and instead we only have remains of dinosaurs and early mammals (even monkeys and apes haven't existed at that time!). Your theory MIGHT work, however, if Nuh and his people were not humans/primate species. Although this would be farfetched.

I read that only a few thousand dinasour bones have been found intact worldwide and these are the ones displayed in museams. That is a pretty dismal number when you consider the evidence that millions of these creatures walked the Earth at the time of extinction. For this reason I would say finding a human bone which has not turned to dust after so many years is possible, but is also like finding a needle in a global haystack.