Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba
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Peace Taj
Thank you for the verse.
But this verse does not say that God is everywhere.
Peace Taj
Mecca , Masjidul Haram , Kaaba and Quibla are inter related either through the Quraan or todays religious practices of 99% of muslims. Quraan says the Qibla is towards the sacred mosque and some take it to mean the mosque in Mecca.
I do not see the reason for your objection, why these subjects should not be discussed together.
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tanveer wrote
What I cannot understand is why some readers keep discussing "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" and "God being everywhere" when the thread is about "mecca" and "kaaba".this thread is about facing a particular direction or a physical structure...
...and the closest any verse comes to this is the 1 talking about "almasjid alharam"! -)
and about quran saying god is everywhere...among other things...
...so things are under control...more or less! -)
read the first 2 posts of phoenix1 to get a better idea of what the thread is about! -)
"Mecca" and "kaaba" as per al-qur'aan have NOTHING to do with "qibla" and "almasjid alharam"......
ur opinion has been noted! -)
and "bayt alharam" is NOT synonymous with "almasjid alharam". It would be great if readers can keep focused on the topics of this thread as that will eliminate some chaos and make the discussion more orderly. Maybe someone can start a separate thread about "qibla" and "almasjid alharam" instead of mixing them in this thread
this thread was started by phoenix1 to discuss what he wants! -)
....if u want something else discussed..u can start the proposed new thread! -)
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We have seen/understood your face turning around in the sky, so We will turn/enable/appoint you a direction you accept/approve it, so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Respected/Sacred and wherever you were so turn your faces towards it, and that those who were given The Book they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and that God is not with neglecting/disregarding about what they make/do
And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred, and that it is the truth from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing.
And that stand/keep up your face to the religion (as) a submitter/Unifier of God, and do
not be from the sharers/takers of partners (with God).So keep up your face to the religion, (as) a submitter/Moslem/Unifier of God, God's nature/manner/religion which He created/originated the people on it, (there is) no replacement/substitution to God's creation, that (is) the religion the straight/valuable, and but most of the people do not know.
So keep up your face to the religion, the straight/valuable, from before that a day/time comes, (there is) no return to it from God, (on) that day they declare openly/separate
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"Obeying the god" is the same thing everyone who venerates some stones or a cross claim.
Peace Ayman,
Christians are not told to pitch their crosses and churches but to cease and desist?
573 Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is a trinity!" There is no god but One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.
Read 2177 and tell me where in it is evidence that the god is asking us to face a physical object?
Many other verses tell us and per 2177 we face in direction to the best of our knowledge ? it?s inner intent which matters!
Why do you assume that the god is primarily concerned with the superficial physical building, while anyone with any intelligence is concerned about the deeper function of the court?
Anyone with intelligence can see that physical Temples/Mosques are also necessary.
1911 So he went out amongst his people from the temple enclosure, and he indicated to them that they should glorify Him at dawn and dusk.
Were not the above and countless others mentioned ?physical? buildings?
Do you propose knocking down all Mosques including Kaba?
Where should people gather and pray ? in parking lots?
Which way should people face during prayer?
What about the many verses to perform hajj; where should people go?
Peace
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peace thegod -)
then who wrote or dictated the quran? -)
I don't know.
what do u mean by "the truth is from god"? -)
where does god live and how does he send this truth? -)
The truth leads us to god, falsehood leads us away. And I think there's a verse that says that. I'll try to find it for ya.
do u know everything that exists?
No. What does that have to do with anything?
do u know the truth of all things?
I know what truth is.
if yes...then u should know whether or not quran is not true...
Yes. But I don't understand parts of the quran. So I can't possibly verify it yet.
if no...then how will ur limited vision decide the entirety of a matter? -)
Limited vision? my vision is not limited.
You are making it too complicated.
I read something in a book (hypothesis), I go and verify it, try to do what it says (testing), and I decide whether the hypothesis is true or not. If it is true, I follow it. If it is not, I don't. It is called the scientific method and it works very well. Mankind has made a lot of progress following those steps.
What you are doing is believing Aristotle's idea that heavier objects fall faster. I am doing what Galileo did and verifying that conjecture of himself. And guess what, I have found that it is not true.whose masjid is almasjid alharam?
You should ask that question to yourself. I'm not the one saying it is a mosque. So, who lives in the kaaba? whose house is it? A house is something someone lives in.
from what i have gathered, a cube is called "mukaab"...
al kaaba is roughly a cubic structure...a cuboid...and i would think "al kaaba" is "the cube"...or perhaps more likely "the cuboid"! -)
why don't you answer my questoin. Does "kaaba" mean "base?"
why does it not mean?
It could mean that. But that would make the quran wrong. But there is a better explanation of that verse which Ayman has given us.
In the end, I am not giving you assumptions as you keep saying. I am not concerned about what the quran says at the moment, because it is full of so many mistranslations and what not.
So, my question is, can you prove to me that your interpretation of the quran is correct? that God really wants us to face a cube? that somehow it helps us? please show me how....but if v are to dispute the authenticity of the text..then it is futile to seek an understanding based on the quran! -)
what is the authenticity? if the quran is true, we can use it. If it is not true, we should not use it. It is that simple.
You think that the quran tells us to face mecca during prayer. you have to prove that that is true. -
Peace Alen,
Sisters, brothers, we should not be arguing about this.
Kaaba is just a direction towards which we pray, that's all.
We just pray towards it, no one here worships it.Please do not say something as a fact of islam when it is unsupported by al-qur'aan because then it becomes inventing a lie against God. Where in al-qur'aan does God ask us to face "kaaba" ? By facing it without authority from God becomes setting up partners with God cuz then one is following someone else other than God who told one to face it.
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Tanveer,
What authority do those people opposing physical directions have ? How would anyone trust their logically invented meanings about Qibla, mosque, masjid alharam , bekka, kaba. Can these people verify mathematically and physically why Quran is the word of the God. You and I did not witness the revelation of the Quran. No one is supposed to oppose anything without knowledge or keep silent if their knowledge is not sufficient. I ask those opposing the physical meanings to bring forth their archaeological proofs because we do not possess a video film of how prophet muhammad really practiced. I oppose sunni, shia and any other religion upto the point of logic and not beyond that. I or anyone is in no position to invent a completely upgraded Quran translation and possibly invent a remarkable Islam. Why are those opposing studying the Quran even ? Are'nt sunnis, shias supposed to have forgotten and mistranslated the Quran completely ? Do' nt you learn arabic meanings of Quran from them or can invent your own ? I consider it to be unfair to go beyond the rejection of Hadees and glorification of muhammad in practicing prejudice against shias and sunnis. If a person does a mistake that does not mean he/she is disqualified from life compeletely.
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Peace Nun de plume,
Christians are not told to pitch their crosses and churches but to cease and desist?
573 Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is a trinity!" There is no god but One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.The pagan symbol of the cross (like the pagan symbol of the cuboid) predates the Trinity. For example, it was used by ancient egyptians (the cuboid was used by the Nabataeans as well as the Greeks). What difference does it make if you venerate a cross or a cube or any geometrical shape? If the Kaaba was built in the shape of a cross, would it make a difference? If Christians hanged cubes around their necks, what difference would it make? Nothing. It is a matter of principle that venerating objects in the name of the god is wrong. Of course, you seem to think that "your" objects are special and are different than the objects of the others. But this is what they all think.
Many other verses tell us and per 2177 we face in direction to the best of our knowledge ? it?s inner intent which matters!
There is nothing in 2177 that says that we need to face a particular physical direction when praying to the god. Quite the opposite, we can see from 2177 that physical direction is not important.
Anyone with intelligence can see that physical Temples/Mosques are also necessary.
How is it necessary. Why can't any building accomplish the same purpose? What do you think is the purpose of a Temple/Mosque?
1911 So he went out amongst his people from the temple enclosure, and he indicated to them that they should glorify Him at dawn and dusk.
The word "temple" or "temple enclosure" doesn't occur in 1911. The Arabic word "mi7rab" means "private place". We hear in the story of Dawood that two opponents climbed the fence into the "mi7rab". So the "mi7rab" is any private area of the home such as a room or an area of the yard surrounded by a fence.
Were not the above and countless others mentioned ?physical? buildings?
The physical building or place was not the main focus of the story. It is any private place.
Do you propose knocking down all Mosques including Kaba?
I propose to not focus on the physical building and instead build our insitutions on forethought ("taqwa". Do you think that "taqwa" is physical brick and mortar? See 9108.
If people had "taqwa" then they wouldn't venerate a stone cube that they named Kaaba and the issue would resolve itself.
Where should people gather and pray ? in parking lots?
People can gather anywhere they want. The issue is not to make the place important. I would rather gather with logical people in a parking lot and cooperate with them on useful things than gather with some foolish people in a building with a golden dome or a venerated cube. By calling a building a Mosque, Church or Temple this doesn't suddenly make the people who enter it wise.
Which way should people face during prayer?
The god is closer to you than the jugular vein. You don't need to face a certain direction to pray to him.
What about the many verses to perform hajj; where should people go?
- And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's location THAT DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly hearing and obeying.
The god clearly tells us the location of the house in 2226. It is where people do not partner with him a thing (a cube, a cross, a dead prophet, a cow, a black stone, a saint, etc.).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Abrar,
What authority do those people opposing physical directions have ? How would anyone trust their logically invented meanings about Qibla, mosque, masjid alharam , bekka, kaba. Can these people verify mathematically and physically why Quran is the word of the God. You and I did not witness the revelation of the Quran. No one is supposed to oppose anything without knowledge or keep silent if their knowledge is not sufficient. I ask those opposing the physical meanings to bring forth their archaeological proofs because we do not possess a video film of how prophet muhammad really practiced. I oppose sunni, shia and any other religion upto the point of logic and not beyond that. I or anyone is in no position to invent a completely upgraded Quran translation and possibly invent a remarkable Islam. Why are those opposing studying the Quran even ? Are'nt sunnis, shias supposed to have forgotten and mistranslated the Quran completely ? Do' nt you learn arabic meanings of Quran from them or can invent your own ? I consider it to be unfair to go beyond the rejection of Hadees and glorification of muhammad in practicing prejudice against shias and sunnis. If a person does a mistake that does not mean he/she is disqualified from life compeletely.
Your comment is COMPLETELY irrelevant to what I said. I am not trying to invent something new. I was asking were in al-qur'aan does God ask us to face "kaaba" ?
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Peace and greetings,
Dear Aymen,
It is a clear fact that everything that exists is glorifying God all the time and the God is present everywhere. If a person has a problem of idolising any object than that person is of weak faith. Qibla is for the sake of showing unity and descipline. When I know that the God is present everywhere why would ever get worried when i am not idolising any direction. I cannot spin myself all the time to seek the God. Practically i can face only one direction at a single time, so if people at communitry gatherings at temples follow the Qibla, would i tell them to spin and rotate constantly to show their seeking of the God. Whichever direction is the Qibla it seems practical, but constant spinning and rotating is not at all practical. What's the fuss all about when the God is niether absent from the direction of the Qibla nor from the other directions.
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What's the fuss all about when the God is niether absent from the direction of the Qibla nor from the other directions.
Z Could it be that in your facing an object for unification purposes you're setting up a partner(s) with the god.
Surely I would think it would be more wise for one to unify with others under the beneficial concepts of there being "no god, but the god", providing for the betterment of society, and things of similar nature, rather than things known to be of a pagan/superficial nature.
Peace
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Peace
The Quraan does not say God is everywhere and neither does it say God is in a house.
The Quraan says take the Sacred mosque/Masjidul Haram as the Qibla and it does not say to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah . Neither does it say Sacred mosque and Kaaba are same.
Also I guess Baitullah /House of Allah can mean a sanctuary / sacred area and not a physical house.
Peace Ayman
Quote from Nun de plume on December 25, 2006, 032409 PM
Which way should people face during prayer?The god is closer to you than the jugular vein. You don't need to face a certain direction to pray to him.
Does the Quraan say facing the sacred mosque mean facing God or in the direction of God. It is just a direction.
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Peace and greetings,
It is a fact that the earth is constantntly in movement. It not only orbits round the sun but is also rotating about its axis. So those facing Qibla are not stationary but thier direction keeps on changing. But those who are fussy would want to physically spin and rotate along with the earth.
Chapter 13 verse 13
"And the thunder glorifies with His praise..."
Can anybody glorify the God as loudly as the thunder does ? How impractical would that be ?
Those who think that facing Qibla is a pagan concept have a misconception about the presence of the God. What if you say that all directions are pagan concepts so the Quranic ayat which says that the God is present evrywhere may seem to you as a pagan insertion. Wherever you turn you face God, even if people are facing Qibla they are facing the God. Now if you have a problem why did the God chose a direction then why do'nt you have a problem that the God did not punish satan instantly and set him free ? It is a trial for those who have disease in thier hearts.
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Peace Abrar,
It is a clear fact that everything that exists is glorifying God all the time and the God is present everywhere. If a person has a problem of idolising any object than that person is of weak faith. Qibla is for the sake of showing unity and descipline.
What unity is achieved by imagining to face some shrine? Are sectarians who imagine that they are facing Mecca united? Are they disciplined? You are right about one thing it is simply for "showing". It has no purpose other than superficial show-off.
On the other hand, facing the real "qibla" distinguishes those who follow the messenger from the hypocrites. Do you think that hypocrites cannot show-off?
When I know that the God is present everywhere why would ever get worried when i am not idolising any direction. I cannot spin myself all the time to seek the God. Practically i can face only one direction at a single time, so if people at communitry gatherings at temples follow the Qibla, would i tell them to spin and rotate constantly to show their seeking of the God. Whichever direction is the Qibla it seems practical, but constant spinning and rotating is not at all practical. What's the fuss all about when the God is niether absent from the direction of the Qibla nor from the other directions.
If you really don't think that it is not a big deal then don't face a particular direction. Just face anywhere while praying. Remember that the previous "qibla" (regardless of what it was) is a big deal except for those that the god guided.
Peace,
Ayman
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Those who think that facing Qibla is a pagan concept have a misconception about the presence of the God. What if you say that all directions are pagan concepts so the Quranic ayat which says that the God is present evrywhere may seem to you as a pagan insertion. Wherever you turn you face God, even if people are facing Qibla they are facing the God. Now if you have a problem why did the God chose a direction then why do'nt you have a problem that the God did not punish satan instantly and set him free ? It is a trial for those who have disease in thier hearts.
Z You must remember, your "qibla" is a rock/cube building that's known to have emanated from Pagan origins.
And regarding your arguement wherein you try to illogically equivocate "all directions" as being pagan, the fact of the matter is, not all directions are pagan, for one direction is consistent with the concept of Monotheism, while the other direction of venerating a building or rock contradicts Monotheism and leaves one with the concept of polytheism.
6136 And they made for God a portion of what He provided them of crops and the livestock; they said "This is for God," by their claims, "And this is for our partners." So what was for their partners did not reach God, and what was for God, it reached their partners! Miserable is how they judged.
Peace
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Peace Warner,
The Quraan does not say God is everywhere and neither does it say God is in a house.
The concept of "presence" as we see it from our limited human prespective is very limited. What does being "somewhere" mean? Are you somewhere when you are occupying some area? or is it more than that? We are merely like words on a sheet of paper in a book and the ink we were written with occupies a certain 2D space on that paper. We cannot compare our "presence" to that of the author who is present on a level that we can't imagine. This is just my poor humble analogy. The reality is much more amazing. The god is closer to each one of 6 billion people than the jugular vein at the same time.
Anywhere partners are not set up with the god is a house of the god.
The Quraan says take the Sacred mosque/Masjidul Haram as the Qibla and it does not say to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah . Neither does it say Sacred mosque and Kaaba are same.
There were no "mosques" in pre-quranic times and the great reading didn't invent a new Arabic word.
Also I guess Baitullah /House of Allah can mean a sanctuary / sacred area and not a physical house.
Again, according to 2226, anywhere partners are not set up with the god is a house of the god.
Peace Ayman
Does the Quraan say facing the sacred mosque mean facing God or in the direction of God.No it doesn't say any of that and neither do I. It is sectarians who claim such.
It is just a direction.
No, it is not "just a direction". It is what differentiates those who follow the messenger from the hypocrites. This cannot be accomplished by imagining to face any shrine.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman
Appreciate your patience and answers to my comments.
I understand or try to understand the meanings of the term ?presence?. But still I have not seen a verse which says God is present everywhere. Can you please quote the verse?
Also I meant mosque with the same meaning as temple. So Masjid ul Haram to me can mean Sacred Temple.Following verse is an example.
17 7
Yusuf Ali If ye did well ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil (ye did it) against yourselves; so when the second of the warnings came to pass (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces and to enter your Temple as they had entered if before and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.In ahsantum ahsantum li anfusikum, wa in asa'tum falaha_, fa iza_ ja_'a wa'dul a_khirati liyasu_'u wuju_hakum wa liyadkhulul masjida kama_ dakhalu_hu awwala marratiw wa liyutabbiru_ ma_ 'alau tatbira_(n).
Also what is your opinion on these 2 verses?
22 40
Yusuf Ali (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right (for no cause) except that they say "Our Lord is Allah." Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries churches synagogues and mosques in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause); for verily Allah is Full of Strength Exalted in Might (Able to enforce His Will).Nil lazina ukhriju_ min diya_rihim bigairi haq qin il la_ ay yaqu_lu_ rab bunal la_h wa laula_ daf'ul la_hin na_sa ba'dahum biba'dil lahud dimat sawa_mi'u wa biya'uw wa salawa_tuw wa masa_jidu yuzkaru fihas mul la_hi katsira_ wa layanshuran nal la_hu may yansuruh in nal la_ha laqawiy yun 'aziz
18 21
Yusuf Ali Thus did We make their case known to the people that they might know that the promise of Allah is true and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said "Construct a building over them" their Lord knows best about them those who prevailed over their affair said "Let us surely build a place of worship over them."Wa kaza_lika a'sarna_ 'alaihim liya'lamu_ anna wa'dalla_hi haqquw wa annas sa_'ata la_ raiba fiha_, iz yatana_za'u_na bainahum amrahum faqa_lu-bnu_ 'alaihim bunya_na_(n), rabbuhum a'lamu bihim, qa_lal lazina galabu_ 'ala_ amrihim lanattakhizanna 'alaihim masjida_(n).
Also our understanding of Sacred Mosque and Kaaba differ. Following link explains my opinion on the subject. Please read and comment if time permits.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12683.msg103528#msg103528